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Founders' Update: Shifting gears - Official discussion thread

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ACE,

Do whatever you need to do to make CF great. Test when it's beneficial to development, not from any sense of obligation to entertain us.

Your backers are here for you now, so you can be here after product launch.


Honestly, you are the type of person that is much to competitive, has zero compassion for other people and think you are better than everyone else. You likely love to troll people on a day to day bases to get others angry and laugh about it. You make playing any online game unfun for everyone else.  -Kuroaka

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Up to 2 month between testing cycles....

 

That seems a bit ridiculous, because people paid money, in some cases...lots of money to get into the game.

 

Personally, until there is mobile combat (and i dont mean auto attack only) I dont even have the desire to log in that often.

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I think letting developers spend their time actually you know, developing things, is probably a better idea.

Having a server open doesnt stop development.

 

Do you think the animator or the artist stop working for 1 hour a day because there is a test server running? 

 

The test server could be open 24 hours a day and it wouldnt slow development in the least.

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0c5314dd08334d2a-600x400.jpg

 

Will a leer suffice? 

 

She just wants him encased in steel and out of that leather armor.  Fun fact ... running around in plate in arctic conditions steals a bunch of heat from you.  She should have a cloak and a hat on.


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Interested in the new people you got there added.


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,,...You get killed over and over again, that doesn't mean the game is unbalanced - it means that You are a bad player" -JTC

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She just wants him encased in steel and out of that leather armor.  Fun fact ... running around in plate in arctic conditions steals a bunch of heat from you.  She should have a cloak and a hat on.

 

i'm a nerd and went to Iceland and while I was there saw where they've done a bunch of game of thrones filming scenes

 

the poor actors were actually boiling in a lot of the scenes as they were there in the summer wearing furs...

 

e.g. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HG0MzA0bb04


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Not trying to be a downer but ACE is a small team and if there was a magic fix for latency issues we would have seen it I would think as its as important as fun combat is for this game to be playable and fun.

 

What they have said multiple times is that they did not get around to focus on optimization and latency yet. Team size is limited and they can only work on so many things at the same time. But apparently optimization and scaling will be one of the main things they will focus from now on. So hopefully we'll see improvements on that front. I'm cautiously optimistic, ,mostly because I've been in two other mass siege PVP MMO's that had pretty good fluid combat but everytime a few dozen players fought simultaneously the whole thing turned into a slide show (and they were both big budget games too). 

 

 

I expected a year until release just pledged, MMOs customers are brutal the game can't be released to soon in buggy/poor condition.   That nearly sunk ESO, its a solid games now but they will never have they numbers they could of if the released game was not in such a bad state.  Hard to come back from bad early impressions like that.  Wahammer was another case of almost but not ready for release if they waited a few months that game would of had a longer life.

 

I'd just like to point out ESO is a solid PVE game now. It's still a trainwreck very flawed PVP game. In fact you can argue PVP has been getting progressively worse in that game over time. Mostly because of the latency/lag issues I mentioned above. Trying to PVP there is like trying to wade your way through mud. Only the small scale fights are fun, and when I quit it was getting harder and harder to find good small scale action there. 

 

The test server could be open 24 hours a day and it wouldnt slow development in the least.

 

I have absolutely no clue how many people ACE needs to run a test, but one thing I know for certain is that at least Tyrant is there the whole time. He doesn't simply push the "on" switch and goes away. He has to adjust the size of the matches, the size of the teams, trouble shoot, sometimes handle major issues with server connectivity, etc. Assuming we have 9 hours of testing in a week, that's 9 hours away from developing the game that he could be doing instead. Not to mention the burn out factor on testers is a thing. We have seen the numbers of testers diminish over the past several weeks. So as much as I'll miss having more frequent tests, I think this is the right move. Can't really test siege properly with 24 people.  


 

 

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I think some people simply do not like the direction combat is going and therefore they won't see progress being made.  I am not saying Scree is saying this, but I have the distinct impression some desire a very different system, and the realization has not fully set in that they are not going to get it.  So, anyone that is satisfied with the direction combat is taking (NOT that it has reached its destination) is perhaps classified as a "yes-man and white knight."  I feel for those dissatisfied backers and can empathize because I was/am unhappy about the Crows and Vessels system.  However, there is still so much more here to enjoy that I remain optimistic, test whenever I can and offer feedback and criticisms (usually constructive, I think).   

 

I hope ACE takes all the time they need to make a great MMORPG. 

 

Sure, but its not my view of Combat that I'm worried about. I've committed myself to accepting their vision for combat, even if I personally find it boring, antiquated and likely to chase away more players than it will attract. The problem here is they have acknowledged several times now the need for delays surrounding combat.  These delays never cited player specific feedback, merely that they haven't made the progress they wanted. Recently we got a bulletpointed list of items that Blair feels are necessary to make the combat "work" in the way they want. We'll see if this leads to combat that others can stomach. Again, the 30-40 consistent testers who enjoy the combat system as it stands are a far cry from hitting the 50,000 player mark they want to attain and retain for years to come.

 

I don't think its an outlandish or unreasonable request to want all hands on deck perfecting the systems to make Combat the way the devs want it before spending time introducing placeholder Archetypes that just need to be redone the closer we get to launch (or any of the other time wasting items they've spent capital on lately). 

 

Finally, merely because the test's have combat in them, does not mean we've been testing combat. Its ancillary, because they know what needs to be done to get combat where it needs to be, and you haven't been testing any of those aspects yet because they aren't in the game. 

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I have absolutely no clue how many people ACE needs to run a test, but one thing I know for certain is that at least Tyrant is there the whole time. He doesn't simply push the "on" switch and goes away. He has to adjust the size of the matches, the size of the teams, trouble shoot, sometimes handle major issues with server connectivity, etc. Assuming we have 9 hours of testing in a week, that's 9 hours away from developing the game that he could be doing instead. Not to mention the burn out factor on testers is a thing. We have seen the numbers of testers diminish over the past several weeks. So as much as I'll miss having more frequent tests, I think this is the right move. Can't really test siege properly with 24 people.  

 

Sounds like CF is more of a hand crafted game than a more finished ready to play.  The real question is how many iterations of CF are we going to go through to get something playable.


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Finally, merely because the test's have combat in them, does not mean we've been testing combat. Its ancillary, because they know what needs to be done to get combat where it needs to be, and you haven't been testing any of those aspects yet because they aren't in the game. 

 

Considering the performance sucks, I think fixing that will in turn be an improvement on combat.  Then they can work on getting combat to wherever it needs to be.  Kind of hard to develop a system when the system can barely facilitate it on a small scale.  I just hope they can pull all of it off and release a very finished game when it releases.  If they have to push it back to April of 2017 or later, that is fine, just make the game and don't take any shortcuts.  Leave out the cash shop (if there will be one) or any extra things that have zero impact on game play for later and finish everything else.

Edited by amazingtacoburito

 

Formerly known as - AmazingTacoBurito

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Pretty cool to know that the Druid is coming soon and all backers will be able to test it right when it's released. More mobility and client prediction are pretty good news too. I think that having periods with no testing sessions makes sense at this point. It's worth experimenting with that anyway, if it's beneficial, great, if not they can always get back to the original formula I guess.

 

Also this update was regarded as too jargon-heavy by many users commenting on the MassivelyOP article.

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Considering the performance sucks, I think fixing that will in turn be an improvement on combat.  Then they can work on getting combat to wherever it needs to be.  Kind of hard to develop a system when the system can barely facilitate it on a small scale.  I just hope they can pull all of it off and release a very finished game when it releases.  If they have to push it back to April of 2017 or later, that is fine, just make the game and don't take any shortcuts.  Leave out the cash shop (if there will be one) or any extra things that have zero impact on game play for later and finish everything else.

The last match on todays test was a hunger dome and the performance and stability of it is night and day compared to Siege Perilous. 60fps, low input lag, etc.

 

Really where I think ACE has a problem is in their physics engine and Voxel Farm, and they've not said anything about it. Even with small numbers SP has had terrible performance fps wise, which I would be more than willing to bet the culprits are voxel farm/physics. We have yet to see any real terrain destruction/modification as well and I'm not sure how ACE is going to do that. Especially when you consider how many games have come along with the "I'm going to use 3d Voxels that aren't blocks" and they never make it look or work quite right or with decent performance. Even the videos Voxel Farm put out demonstrating their tech are rather lack luster in those departments.

 

ACE could still prove me wrong and I would be glad for it, but without some major work I'm not really convinced they can get a playable framerate in sieges using voxel farm and physics. I think this is the biggest elephant in the room, and I really wish ACE would address them. Right now it just seems they are going to throw more manpower and resources trying to fix it, and I'm not sure it's something they can do on their budget.

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The last match on todays test was a hunger dome and the performance and stability of it is night and day compared to Siege Perilous. 60fps, low input lag, etc.

 

Really where I think ACE has a problem is in their physics engine and Voxel Farm, and they've not said anything about it. Even with small numbers SP has had terrible performance fps wise, which I would be more than willing to bet the culprits are voxel farm/physics. We have yet to see any real terrain destruction/modification as well and I'm not sure how ACE is going to do that. Especially when you consider how many games have come along with the "I'm going to use 3d Voxels that aren't blocks" and they never make it look or work quite right or with decent performance. Even the videos Voxel Farm put out demonstrating their tech are rather lack luster in those departments.

 

ACE could still prove me wrong and I would be glad for it, but without some major work I'm not really convinced they can get a playable framerate in sieges using voxel farm and physics. I think this is the biggest elephant in the room, and I really wish ACE would address them. Right now it just seems they are going to throw more manpower and resources trying to fix it, and I'm not sure it's something they can do on their budget.

 

I would prefer to see them trying to fix it first, instead of giving up so soon. The wall rubble has come to a point where it's starting to feel nice. There's a few matches in which some people still get stuck and the rubble becomes a nuisance, but it's more the exception than the norm now. Once those blocks start doing damage, it'll be very interesting. However if it comes to a point later down the road, in which they have to choose between acceptable server performance or voxels, I wouldn't be terribly disappointed to see voxels gone either. As long as we can still build anywhere, and destroy most structures, that's what matters to me. 

Edited by Rikutatis

 

 

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Up to 2 month between testing cycles....

 

That seems a bit ridiculous, because people paid money, in some cases...lots of money to get into the game.

 

Personally, until there is mobile combat (and i dont mean auto attack only) I dont even have the desire to log in that often.

 

I think most backers donated money to support the game development and to earn multiple rewards, among those rewards the privilege to participate in the tests when the developers need to test stuff. ACE haven't guaranteed that testers could play several hours weekly as far as I know. What was explained during the Kickstarter is that testers would have the opportunity to test the game every 3 months (quarterly basis). Since last summer, I guess we've been spoiled enough by having multiple sessions every week.

 

Also they've mentioned that they would most likely hold spot tests from time to time.

 

Shh careful with those facts might get accused of being a White Knight :rolleyes:

 

As long as the cause is just.  :P

Edited by courant101

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Honestly, I am just happy if Crowfall comes out anytime soon and is a decent game that meets somewhere its various expectations, and doesnt get cancelled like EverQuest Next or Revival.

 

 

The last match on todays test was a hunger dome and the performance and stability of it is night and day compared to Siege Perilous. 60fps, low input lag, etc.

 

Really where I think ACE has a problem is in their physics engine and Voxel Farm, and they've not said anything about it. Even with small numbers SP has had terrible performance fps wise, which I would be more than willing to bet the culprits are voxel farm/physics. We have yet to see any real terrain destruction/modification as well and I'm not sure how ACE is going to do that. Especially when you consider how many games have come along with the "I'm going to use 3d Voxels that aren't blocks" and they never make it look or work quite right or with decent performance. Even the videos Voxel Farm put out demonstrating their tech are rather lack luster in those departments.

 

ACE could still prove me wrong and I would be glad for it, but without some major work I'm not really convinced they can get a playable framerate in sieges using voxel farm and physics. I think this is the biggest elephant in the room, and I really wish ACE would address them. Right now it just seems they are going to throw more manpower and resources trying to fix it, and I'm not sure it's something they can do on their budget.

 

This was working fine in EverQuest Next Landmark from what I can tell.

Maybe ACE should buy some assets or whole EQ Next, and put it in Crowfall.

The terrain destruction was working great.

Edited by Urahara

After EverQuest Next is gone, its Star Citizen for me.

 

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This was working fine in EverQuest Next Landmark from what I can tell.

Maybe ACE should buy some assets or whole EQ Next, and put it in Crowfall.

 

 

ha, great idea. maybe, after failing, the price wont be that high... having EQ:N inside CF would be really cool as destructible terrain was the main point i am interested in these two games. merge them and it has to work :)

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ha, great idea. maybe, after failing, the price wont be that high... having EQ:N inside CF would be really cool as destructible terrain was the main point i am interested in these two games. merge them and it has to work :)

 

I didnt give up the idea of EQ Next for a new generation of MMO.

We definitely need that.

Edited by Urahara

After EverQuest Next is gone, its Star Citizen for me.

 

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I'm glad they are changing the test cadence... because to be honest... the whole agile thing is just bull&$*# or the way as everybody is using it. Presenting something every month for clients is just stupid (in my opinion). I can see it in our company, where we show every piece of *(#$ to customers and hoping for good feedback. If those features would be something usable and interesting, why not, but in most cases it's just really small thing or visions of bigger things (because good features/updates are not possible to create in a few weeks). 

 

So I think it's good thing to do more development and less testing in the current phase. And also because, as somebody already mentioned, of the burn out of testers. 

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