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The Druid in action - Official discussion thread


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Really love the animations, especially the staff motions. See it a lot more often these days, but I still giggle with glee when I see little details of love like that.

Wearily do I sleep eternity away.

Without fear or haste, on bedding made of solitude and silence.

 

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So, you want them to be like every other MMO and make a pure healer, but then you chastise them for not being different.

 

Uh, you might want to try that again, or point out where i "chastise them for not being different". My entire post was criticizing their fixation with being too different for no good reason.

 

Ostensibly their "rationale" is that "firehose healing" is only needed for PvE raids or some such nonsense. That is just such a weak argument it doesn't warrant defeating.

aka honeybear

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The thing about dual tray characters is one of their trays is temporary.  Like the Ranger, when the game introduces ammo, she will run out of arrows.  To keep her from being useless they gave her a melee tray.  Now here is the fun part, if you are all in on Ranged like I am and if I were to run out of ammo, I would get my ass handed to me by a Ranger who was all in on melee unless I outplay them somehow, but for the sake of argument lets say we are evenly skilled.  If you split between the two that makes you moderately proficient in both.  What the Knight, Champ, Fessor and Legio don't have to worry about is a second skill set they need to train up to be effective.  Who knows maybe they will introduce a different power set for the Fessor and different physical skills for the others which would be neat.  What would be really neat is as you progress you can get a second tray for "unlocked" powers that are achieved through the skills tree.

 

 

Why do we need two bars!! Its pointless and adds more clunkiness to the game. Omfg 12 abilities! we better split those up or people would lose their mind seeing them all at once.

Can we not have two bars all the time like a real mmo. with a global cood down thats longer for the "off set" so you use a bow ability and the melee abilities have a gcd before you could press them.

Oh wait, were going to consoles so we need poorly made socksty ui.

 

I like dual trays on the Ranger, keeps me from having to reach over and press 9 to use a melee ability.  Now for the sake of customization, I would hope they would allow one of have all the powers on the screen at once and have a toggle button to switch the hotkeys and your combat type (ranged or melee).  But I like dual trays myself.

Edited by amazingtacoburito

 

Formerly known as - AmazingTacoBurito

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That does not answer how they're reconciling a "pure healer" or "dps spec" druid with the following

 

if you look at the non promotion skill training available - already options to change the amount of essence you can have before burning and damage / heal focus

 

https://sites.google.com/site/crowfallresource/game-info/skills/archetype/support/druid

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Ostensibly their "rationale" is that "firehose healing" is only needed for PvE raids or some such nonsense. That is just such a weak argument it doesn't warrant defeating.

 

I'm interested to know why you consider that this argument is weak. It seems reasonable to me that the "firehose healing" we see in traditional MMORPGs (with a lot of PvE) makes less sense in a PvP oriented game that is light on in-combat healing to make it more deadly.

 

Combat FAQ (healing):

 

6. DOES THE GAME USE THE “TRINITY SYSTEM” OF CLASS BALANCE (TANK, DPS AND HEALER)?

Some elements, yes, but overall, not really.

We have characters that are more offensive. We have characters that are more defensive. We have characters with support powers. But we made the game purposefully light on in-combat healing, to make it more deadly.

We’ve opened up the character customization options (through promotion classes and disciplines) to make each character a mixed bag of skills and powers. Each archetype starts with predisposition towards a certain playstyle, but after that the game system really opens up and allows you to adapt your character any way you like.

 

7. WHY DE-EMPHASIZE COMBAT HEALING?

In more traditional MMO’s, combat healing adds a multiplier to each combatant’s effective hit points. A group’s guardian isn’t just managing one health bar, his “effective” health pool is equal to his personal health bar multiplied by their support healers’ mana-driven powers.

This makes a lot of sense for games that focus around player-versus environment combat where the monsters have thousands of hit points, especially raids. It makes less sense in a game focused on skill-based player-versus-player combat. Since Crowfall doesn’t have PvE raiding we don’t really need super powerful healing.

 

8. YOU DON'T HAVE HEALER? THAT'S WHAT I PLAY!

Our intent is for the support archetypes to have key buffs, debuffs and physics related powers at a cost of damage or defensive capability. That isn't to say there won't be healing. There will be options with archetypes and disciplines to pick up healing powers. We just didn't want to make the traditional firehose style healer that most "trinity" combat systems use.

Like most attacks in Crowfall, healing requires the caster to aim and properly land heals. There are a variety of different methods of healing targeting such as reticle target, projectiles, ground targeting, trap style and reactive.

 

 

Edited by courant101
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Guys, not every every archetype needs two skill trays.  Do some archetypes need more skill variety?  Yes, I think it is safe to say that.  However, there are other ways to address this that are listed in this thread, as well in other places on these boards and undoubtedly already in the minds of ACE devs.  You love dual skill trays?  Great, CF has archetypes with them.  You hate dual skill trays?  Great, CF has archetypes without them.  It really isn't that hard...    

The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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Guys, not every every archetype needs two skill trays.  Do some archetypes need more skill variety?  Yes, I think it is safe to say that.  However, there are other ways to address this that are listed in this thread, as well in other places on these boards and undoubtedly already in the minds of ACE devs.  You love dual skill trays?  Great, CF has archetypes with them.  You hate dual skill trays?  Great, CF has archetypes without them.  It really isn't that hard...    

People get very bored even with 1.5 skill trays in gw2... I think having 1 on a bunch of diff classes would make for pretty boring gameplay.

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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People get very bored even with 1.5 skill trays in gw2... I think having 1 on a bunch of diff classes would make for pretty boring gameplay.

 

You can have more skills without two bars (see: the rest of this thread). 

The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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People get very bored even with 1.5 skill trays in gw2... I think having 1 on a bunch of diff classes would make for pretty boring gameplay.

 

gw2 had MANY weapon options beyond ones available via in combat switching a huge variety of slottable utility and ultimate spells...

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gw2 had MANY weapon options beyond ones available via in combat switching a huge variety of slottable utility and ultimate spells...

Crowfall has many options for classes and promotion classes and disciplines and such outside of combat as well... but what matters more is how the game feels in combat.

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I'm interested to know why you consider that this argument is weak. It seems reasonable to me that the "firehose healing" we see in traditional MMORPGs (with a lot of PvE) makes less sense in a PvP oriented game that is light on in-combat healing to make it more deadly.

 

Its a weak argument because dedicated healing is either present or at least supported in several pvp-centric mmos; Albion, Darkfall, Archeage, even EVE. 

 

Even in classic darkfall, cross-healing was the foundation of winning outnumbered fights. A solid tight-knit group that was great at cross healing and doing a rolling retreat could slaughter groups twice their size if the zerg they were fighting was only focused on offense. This was even more true in water fighting. Granted, those cross-healers were fully capable of offense -- but they weren't forced into it, and if they wanted, they could choose to just heal buff and support their team

 

The idea that some gimmicky mechanic that requires your healer nuclear reactor cores be cooled by going on the offensive, when you don't necessarily want to or need to, is just that -- a gimmick. It takes the choice away from the player. Why? "To make it more deadly" Yes. More deadly to small groups fighting zergs that don't even heal their enemies or hit their friendlies with melee swings.

 

This would be more evident if friendly fire was on, and healing your friendlies (and NOT healing your enemies) was critically important. It all goes back to beating unskilled mobs with smaller more effective groups. You're just not going to get a chance to see that level of skill or play without friendly fire, and you won't see how paramount a GOOD dedicated healer is to winning that kind of fight.

 

I would not have a complaint if druids had the option to choose offense, rather than being forced into it. As I understand it, apparently even in the "heal spec" druid, some amount of offense must be done to balance the healing. If i'm entirely mistaken and you can heal without being forced to switch to different role, please correct me.

aka honeybear

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Its a weak argument because dedicated healing is either present or at least supported in several pvp-centric mmos; Albion, Darkfall, Archeage, even EVE. 

 

Albion sucks, archeage sucks, eve sucks... darkfall was mediocre...

 

We don't wanna follow those formulas. 

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Legio and Druid will do support with their own plays styles, solid design choice.   Some folks will like the Legio melee front line style and some will the the druids ranged style.

 

I like that the druids heals require people to pay attention and walk to the orbs, I really like you can use them to do damage if you chose.  I see some people using the druids as more of a damage dealer.   I like doing that if a 'support' class has an option to be viable damage dealers I build for damage and enjoy the hate sends because im not healing random people.

 

p.s. I would not worry about druids or any casters damage being OP we have not seen assassins yet.  The bane of casters in all games.

 

If you can aim well you don't need to worry about people walking into orbs. You can just cast the orb directly on your teammate. I remember in TERA playing my Priest, two of our best skills were tiny circle AoEs, so I just got used to placing them properly for the dumbo's who can't pay attention. Healer skill even in combat like this still can trump clueless teammates and as long as that remains true it should be fun. Any class should be able to use personal skill to their advantage.

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Another schizophrenic archetype.... well, at least the ranger won't be lonely.

 

Seriously - why don't they just add a branching spec option -- you can pick to either spec into pure melee ranger, or pure ranged ranger; you can pick to either spec into a pure healing druid, or a pure dps druid. 

 

Why is ACE so hell bent on not having pure healers? Where are the thousands of people who were crying out "please god no more pure healers they ruin games"? When did this alleged outrage over healers happen?

 

The more i follow the development of CF, the more it seems that they're not trying to be wildly different to try and create innovative or balanced game play, but just for the sake of being wildly different, even at the cost of poorly made sockstier game play. 

It feels like i'm watching ACE try to reinvent the wheel here and it is painful to watch.

 

As someone whose played a healer in every MMO I've ever played, I enjoy the variety. I love healing but I love even more being an all around support archetype. WoW/RIFT style healing is not fun, adding in unneccessarily complex talent trees and rotations with procs that do a thing that means you need to do another thing, self buffs, complex rotations all because they have no other way to make healing interesting and challenging.

 

But take the Chanter in Aion and that was an amazing all around support character with buffs, debuffs, heals, dps, mana regen, auras. Then the Priest and Mystic in TERA, both full healers, but most of your time was spent buffing, debuffing, CC, cleansing, avoidance, group mana regen, etc. The Oathbound Paladin and Devoted Cleric in Neverwinter along with any healing build you make in ESO also have a mix of healing, damage, and buffing/CC support. 

 

I think adding in the extra skills keeps things more interesting but also makes you a more powerful support character because not only do they rely on you for heals, but they need all the other cool stuff from you, too. It also adds in some much more interesting choices and strategy into the class, introducing different types of player skill. You really need to be on your A game, managing multiple skills and skill types along with paying attention to every teammate and enemies, figuring out which skills to use at any given moment in an ever-changing environment. Those best able to juggle all of that - and not die along the way - will be the best Druids and that sounds fun to me. Much better than "spam this heal and then spam this one and back to the first one until proc a pops up and move out of this AoE click click click monkey mini game and oh yea here's a buff nobody cares about".

Edited by Leiloni
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As someone whose played a healer in every MMO I've ever played, I enjoy the variety. I love healing but I love even more being an all around support archetype. WoW/RIFT style healing is not fun, adding in unneccessarily complex talent trees and rotations with procs that do a thing that means you need to do another thing, self buffs, complex rotations all because they have no other way to make healing interesting and challenging.

 

But take the Chanter in Aion and that was an amazing all around support character with buffs, debuffs, heals, dps, mana regen, auras. Then the Priest and Mystic in TERA, both full healers, but most of your time was spent buffing, debuffing, CC, cleansing, avoidance, group mana regen, etc. The Oathbound Paladin and Devoted Cleric in Neverwinter along with any healing build you make in ESO also have a mix of healing, damage, and buffing/CC support. 

 

I think adding in the extra skills keeps things more interesting but also makes you a more powerful support character because not only do they rely on you for heals, but they need all the other cool stuff from you, too. It also adds in some much more interesting choices and strategy into the class, introducing different types of player skill. You really need to be on your A game, managing multiple skills and skill types along with paying attention to every teammate and enemies, figuring out which skills to use at any given moment in an ever-changing environment. Those best able to juggle all of that - and not die along the way - will be the best Druids and that sounds fun to me. Much better than "spam this heal and then spam this one and back to the first one until proc a pops up and move out of this AoE click click click monkey mini game and oh yea here's a buff nobody cares about".

 

+1

 

support can and should be so much more than "healing bot"

 

better team gameplay and far more interesting to play

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Its a weak argument because dedicated healing is either present or at least supported in several pvp-centric mmos; Albion, Darkfall, Archeage, even EVE. 

 

Even in classic darkfall, cross-healing was the foundation of winning outnumbered fights. A solid tight-knit group that was great at cross healing and doing a rolling retreat could slaughter groups twice their size if the zerg they were fighting was only focused on offense. This was even more true in water fighting. Granted, those cross-healers were fully capable of offense -- but they weren't forced into it, and if they wanted, they could choose to just heal buff and support their team

 

The idea that some gimmicky mechanic that requires your healer nuclear reactor cores be cooled by going on the offensive, when you don't necessarily want to or need to, is just that -- a gimmick. It takes the choice away from the player. Why? "To make it more deadly" Yes. More deadly to small groups fighting zergs that don't even heal their enemies or hit their friendlies with melee swings.

 

This would be more evident if friendly fire was on, and healing your friendlies (and NOT healing your enemies) was critically important. It all goes back to beating unskilled mobs with smaller more effective groups. You're just not going to get a chance to see that level of skill or play without friendly fire, and you won't see how paramount a GOOD dedicated healer is to winning that kind of fight.

 

I would not have a complaint if druids had the option to choose offense, rather than being forced into it. As I understand it, apparently even in the "heal spec" druid, some amount of offense must be done to balance the healing. If i'm entirely mistaken and you can heal without being forced to switch to different role, please correct me.

 

I appreciate your explanation and I agree that dedicated healers are present in some PvP focused MMOs. I'm pretty sure though that ACE never said they didn't want dedicated healers in Crowfall. They mentioned "firehose" healing, in reference to those games where the players keep healing massively the tank so it can survive a 1 hour PvE farming session.

 

I understand that you dislike how the Druid was designed, requiring to switch from the healing to the nuking modes. However I don't see anything intrinsically bad in that design, it's very different than what we generally see, but I'm sure a lot of people will enjoy it. There's also the option to specialize in healing, which I guess will allow a player to heal longer before needing to switch back to the offensive powers.

 

If the amount of healing is reduced, the TTK usually decreases. If a game allows massive amount of healing but remains deadly, then it means that something else has changed. I guess that we can't really have firehose healing (PvE level) and deadly combat in the same PvP game without compensating with something like more CC, damage burst, smaller HP pool...

 

Anyway it seems to be more a matter of taste than anything else, and ACE often mentioned that Crowfall is different than other MMORPGs and that not everyone would like it. So those who would prefer to play a dedicated firehose healer may want to look elsewhere, or try the Druid in the first place and see whether or not it fits their gaming preferences.

Edited by courant101
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I appreciate your explanation and I agree that dedicated healers are present in some PvP focused MMOs. I'm pretty sure though that ACE never said they didn't want dedicated healers in Crowfall. They mentioned "firehose" healing, in reference to those games where the players keep healing massively the tank so it can survive a 1 hour PvE farming session.

 

 

If the amount of healing is reduced, the TTK usually decreases. If a game allows massive amount of healing but remains deadly, then it means that something else has changed. I guess that we can't really have firehose healing (PvE level) and deadly combat in the same PvP game without compensating with something like more CC, damage burst, smaller HP pool...

 

I wanted to highlight these two bits because I think it's important. ACE didn't say no healing and they didn't say the support characters couldn't be powerful life saving roles. They just said none of that spam healing you see in games like WoW and Aion's Cleric, where all you're doing is using heal after heal after heal forever until you run out of mana or are otherwise disabled or dead. That's not as fun as some other types of healers that heal and save lives, but also do other things. 

 

But the second quoted paragraph is also worth considering. When you have massive amounts of healing in a PvP game, yes it needs to be deadly, but how do you accomplish that? Massive amounts of burst dps and massive amounts of CC. So you think you're doing your job well and then a dps or two gets off one lucky combo or one lucky crit and it's all over. That's never fun, doesn't allow for much skill, and ultimately comes down to getting lucky once with little or no potential for counterplay. I've played those games and it's an exercise in frustration. Then you need a buttload of CC to keep the healer in check so they can't spam heal, or to keep that burst dps in check so they can't kill your team in 2 seconds. That's also not fun for the same reasons.

 

I know at first glance without giving it much thought, what ACE is doing could seem bad and too different. But think about what they're really saying, and what those other games you've played really offered you, and it's better than you think.

Edited by Leiloni
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Have I told you... lately... that I love you?

 

I don't say thanks enough.  Sometimes I'm critical (hopefully in a constructive way), but as I went back through the YouTube channel and rewatched a bunch of these, I reflected on how awesome this is.  Thanks for showing us how it's done.  It's been a great ride, and it's not even over yet!

Nazdar

Proud member of The Hunger

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