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Powers prediction - Official discussion thread

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That was a very interesting read. I wonder how this system will handle animation canceling and other inevitable unforeseen quirks. Also, the variable windup animation could make attacking feel very weird to new players.


Might I interest you in a low-interest mortgage?

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That was a very interesting read. I wonder how this system will handle animation canceling and other inevitable unforeseen quirks. Also, the variable windup animation could make attacking feel very weird to new players.

 

please god no animation cancels


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Your client side prediction seems well suited to the slower speed of combat in Crowfall.  I can't help but wonder how faster games like Blade & Soul handle it.

 

Looking forward to trying it out.  You've said parts of this system will be live by Friday - how much?  50% of it? Should we expect Friday's test to be a small step towards what you're going for or an "almost there" version?

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Its looks like we can cancel first animation and make second animation before first animation finish in our clients. Animation canceling power activated:) Wombo mombo combo. Am I wrong?

 

Many skill in a second:)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKooc_d92BY

 

Not caring have canceling system. Smooth game is more important 

Edited by Chaqaron

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That was a very interesting read. I wonder how this system will handle animation canceling and other inevitable unforeseen quirks. Also, the variable windup animation could make attacking feel very weird to new players.

It's the windup animation that allows the magic to happen behind the scenes without the common player realizing what is happening.  It was a good read all around, and I like the direction this part of the game is going.

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Its looks like we can cancel first animation and make second animation before first animation finish in our clients. Animation canceling power activated:) Wombo mombo combo. Am I wrong?

 

Many skill in a second:)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKooc_d92BY

 

Not caring have canceling system. Smooth game is more important 

I haven't noticed any animation canceling during casting before.  I think what is going on is not animation cancelling, but shortening the buildup so we have a smooth experience every time with every skill.  Unity uses a basic update function, that is not constant, and hard to adjust for, then add in internet speed between checks and you could have a skill take 500ms one time and 700ms a second time.  It seems to me they are trying to avoid short fast inconsistent skills, by building more medium length consistent skills.

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I also want to thank you for being patient in reading this far through my detailed description.

 

You're welcome :D Really interesting stuff to read to understand the difficulty behind the system build.


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Thelanas Kar'Pal Membre fondateur de l'alliance Naerth en 2001 - Ex Shadowbane European Advisor Damnation/Carnage/Vindication/Corruption http://www.twitch.tv/gorwald/profile

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I haven't noticed any animation canceling during casting before.  I think what is going on is not animation cancelling, but shortening the buildup so we have a smooth experience every time with every skill.  Unity uses a basic update function, that is not constant, and hard to adjust for, then add in internet speed between checks and you could have a skill take 500ms one time and 700ms a second time.  It seems to me they are trying to avoid short fast inconsistent skills, by building more medium length consistent skills.

Normaly, thundersrike skill has 1 second coldown between each thunder. 1 x5times =5 second total skill. But player in the video using all thunders in 2 seconds

Edited by Chaqaron

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Normaly, thundersrike skill has 1 second coldown between each thunder. 1 x5times =5 second total skill. But player in the video using all thunders in 2 seconds

Your video was of someone in Archeage.  I was referring to Crowfall when I said I hadn't witnessed any animation cancelling; sorry for that confusion.  I would actually like animations to be cancelled, but animation cancelling should also stop the co-routine running that would have cast the spell.

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re: "how do they do it in XYZ game", it depends.  Some of MMOs use an approach like this one.  Others decided that the feeling of responsiveness was top priority, and went with "trust the client" architectures that feel amazing but (as a result) are rife with hacking and cheating. 

 

This issue is not unique to Crowfall, and unfortunately, there is no magic bullet.  My hope is that posts like this one will at least illustrate that we're investing heavily in solving this problem, and that we have folks with the right level of experience to address it.  As with any complex issue, it just takes a lot of time (and testing) to get it right.

 

Thanks for being patient!

 

Todd

ACE


J Todd Coleman

ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.

Follow us on Twitter @CrowfallGame | Like us on Facebook

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I know it's been a long time since I've posted (damn RL), but I have to weigh in here because this model does not seem like the best way to go.  I'm really afraid this is going to make combat even worse, which is something none of us want to see.  

 

The ultimate problem, as you said, it latency between client and server coupled with the need to trust the server in every way.  What you guys need is a combination of actor awareness/distribution coupled with a buffer of client states/insputs such for validity checking.  Rather than mess with the animations, keeping a client buffer state and using that to manage where the actor was, what they were doing, etc at the time of the server action request, and when the response is received you discard states older than the corrected response from the server, thus applying the actions invisibly to the world based on those positions from the past.  You don't want to stop the world to handle this client-server relationship, which it seems like the animation locks and "build up" changes you feel like you need to make are for.  Don't rework animations, rework the client-server model.  

 

I would also highly recommend you look into Project Orleans from Microsoft research.  It's an implementation/derivative of the Actor Model Theory for massively scaleable virtual environments and was used in Halo 4 and Halo 5 (amongst other projects).  It's also open source.  While it was intended for cloud computing (Azure and stuff), it can be worked for use in a traditional server environment.  Some links of note-

 

Please take a look and consider those options before you go too far down the rabbit hole of forcing the client into awkward combat mode to ensure client-server accuracy!


Gaunsaku

Elder, Lords of the Dead

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please god no animation cancels

As a player of Mobas, I like animation cancels. But for most other situations, like this one, I have to agree. The big issue with them is that they up the skill ceiling with little redeeming quality. They JUST make the game harder. (They technically add a lot of juking to MOBAs, but that only works in a lower latency environments, one that an MMO can't really do.)

 

It's the windup animation that allows the magic to happen behind the scenes without the common player realizing what is happening.  It was a good read all around, and I like the direction this part of the game is going.

The issue with the windup is that a player can do the windup, cancel it, and start a new ability and windup animation. Depending on how the game is made, these actions can be handled all sorts of crazy ways. It can play the wrong animation for the wrong ability, tell the other player's client to play the entire windup animation of the first ability before the other. These and more can be used to trick the enemy into thinking a different ability is getting used. Things like this can get quite silly, and even with fixing, a few of them will probobly get through.(Assuming, of course, that I am understanding this right. Which is unlikely at best.)


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