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Zergs. Love, Hate, Strategery.


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I'll jump right in. Depending on your point of view, zergs and zerg tactics can be fun and exciting or dead annoying. Let's face it, it is always fun to be on the winning side of a large siege battle. However as with any territorial contest, the number of soldiers an army has almost always equals its effectiveness. And as many of us have seen this sometimes leads to super guilds being the only available player option.

 

But what then becomes of small, close knit groups looking for smaller strategic engages. Many of mine, and I'm sure your, favorite memories are of small group PvP in the open world. This creates fast paced heart thumping battles where each team member plays a pivotal role, and the days win or loss could depend on 1 persons skill. Great times for those of us lucky enough to have experienced them.

 

This dichotomy also spills over to the economic impact a larger group can have over a smaller workforce. And from what we have seen, this could have significant impact on how crafters and merchants organize within the game.

 

So my question is, what plans, if any, are there to combat the natural tendency to form the largest guild possible in order to provide economic stability and safety for your members? Yes I understand that in a game such as this that is a perfectly legitimate strategy, however I hope that it is not the only legitimate strategy. As a side note what other game mechanics have you guys seen to combat this "problem"?

keep calm & crush

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There's always been small-gang PvP and large zerg fights. If you're fighting over a castle, yeah, that's not going to be a place for small-scale PvP. However, if the world is truly open PvP, there will definitely be a lot of small gangs roaming around looking for PvP.

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There's always been small-gang PvP and large zerg fights. If you're fighting over a castle, yeah, that's not going to be a place for small-scale PvP. However, if the world is truly open PvP, there will definitely be a lot of small gangs roaming around looking for PvP.

And then they get rolled over and over again by roaming Zergs from the big guilds. Strength and safety in numbers. Its a natural instinct to cling to. And can get rather frustrating too.

keep calm & crush

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And then they get rolled over and over again by roaming Zergs from the big guilds. Strength and safety in numbers. Its a natural instinct to cling to. And can get rather frustrating too.

 

If you've played any game with open-world PvP, you would know that this isn't the case. Yeah, there are some huge roaming zergs, but they are very difficult to do all the time because lack of players online and lack of players who would lead such a zerg.

 

For example, let's take a look at EvE online. Yes, there are huge zerg fights with 1000+ people, but then I've seen 40-50 man gang roams, and 5-10 man small gang roams. If Crowfall is open-world, its most likely going to be like this.

 

Huge zerg roams are simply unfeasible 99% of the time because of logistical reasons.

Edited by smilhollin
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If you've played any game with open-world PvP, you would know that this isn't the case. Yeah, there are some huge roaming zergs, but they are very difficult to do all the time because lack of players online and lack of players who would lead such a zerg.

 

For example, let's take a look at EvE online. Yes, there are huge zerg fights with 1000+ people, but then I've seen 40-50 man gang roams, and 5-10 man small gang roams. If Crowfall is open-world, its most likely going to be like this.

 

Huge zerg roams are simply unfeasible 99% of the time because of logistical reasons.

 

 

EvE has a very relevant logistics layer that prevents the complete hegemony of zergs. Other games that are out right now did not bother to model a proper logistics layer, thus leading to a zerg being the default supreme "strategy" since there was nothing but advantages.

 

Mass pvp MUST have a proper logistics/supply model or it just defaults to "megaguild wins".

 

Edit: this is mainly to point out the OP and some others in this thread probably came from another open world game that did not bother to understand and implement how logistics and economy should interact with mass warfare, thus leading to their concerns. I've experienced some of those games. There is a reason I did not stay, nor my guild members.

Edited by Overkilengine
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If you've played any game with open-world PvP, you would know that this isn't the case. Yeah, there are some huge roaming zergs, but they are very difficult to do all the time because lack of players online and lack of players who would lead such a zerg.

 

For example, let's take a look at EvE online. Yes, there are huge zerg fights with 1000+ people, but then I've seen 40-50 man gang roams, and 5-10 man small gang roams. If Crowfall is open-world, its most likely going to be like this.

 

Huge zerg roams are simply unfeasible 99% of the time because of logistical reasons.

Hell, in SB we ran Zergs every night. Policed our entire area and then usually had a siege to show up to. Not sure what games you play but after I got bored of that I branched out to a smaller guild and got a taste of how hard it was to be successful without numbers. Sorry mate but I think you have rosey view on things on this one.

keep calm & crush

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EvE has a very relevant logistics layer that prevents the complete hegemony of zergs. Other games that are out right now did not bother to model a proper logistics layer, thus leading to a zerg being the default supreme "strategy" since there was nothing but advantages.

Mass pvp MUST have a proper logistics/supply model or it just defaults to "megaguild wins".

Edit: this is mainly to point out the OP and some others in this thread probably came from another open world game that did not bother to understand and implement how logistics and economy should interact with mass warfare, thus leading to their concerns. I've experienced some of those games. There is a reason I did not stay, nor my guild members.

This is a good point. Perhaps I should have just said this in OP and people would understand my concerns.

keep calm & crush

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If there is full loot in the game, it's going to have the exact same logistics as EvE. If there is no full loot, then I agree with your sentiments, but if there is full loot, that's enough to scare off huge zergs 24/7.

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The Hunger Resistance stat may limit the size of a wandering army in the long term, since presumably the zerg guild would need to forage for food and therefore spread out or bring supplies. The hunger effect would become most pronounced when the zerg guild stops to besiege a city. Unless they take cities they could mostly pillage and gank anyone unable to run away. I'm hoping that there will be diseases that only affect cannibals incorporated into the game.

I think the K-Mart of MMO's already exists!  And it ain't us!   :)

 

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Generally, the guilds that are zerging are much less organized.  They have less effective communication, and also hierarchy structures for who they're supposed to be listening to at any given time.  It makes them ripe for the pickings.  Just don't piss one off enough to come after your city.  Zergs are easier to beat by stringing them out and attacking stragglers; not as easy if they're camping a defensive objective (like a SB banestone).

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I want the game to have the capability of zerging. If there isnt then why the hell are we wasting our optimism on a group v group game.

 

What i dont want is a global game mechanic that can be compromised by the zerg. What i mean by that is the game needs to remain playable, and not rendered a waste land of misfortune. In my eyes the best idea in preventing a zerg from making the game unplayable is making the world huge, next on that list is no global maps, 3rd, create a scaled maintenance and logistical mechanic needed to maintain said player population.

Edited by Indianburn
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Zerging is a proper strategy of sorts, IRL if you have 3:1 or 5:1 etc then you'd take that in your favor right? I always prefer skill battles, but I'm more up for realism. Who sends out armies of 5 people anyway? :P 

 

Just my opinion. ;)

Last Call (A community guild for friendly peoples waiting out for CrowFall :P): http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/888-last-call-a-community-for-friendly-people/

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If you can't beat em, zerg em.

 

Zergs seem inevitable and eventually numbers outweigh skill because of game mechanics.  One way to prevent zergs is to offer worthwhile rewards that are divided between all players defined as a "group".

Edited by saludeen
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zergs shoudl be possible to give the widest variety of Player options...

 

that being said, the logistics/organization/ communications for a zerg should get exponentially more difficult as the total bodies involved increases past whatever is determined to be the "optimal" number of Players in a population (guild/faction/nation or whatever)

 

by doing this, smaller groups have the advantage of efficiency as opposed to overwhelming numbers, thus making guerrilla warfare feasible

 

think Revolutionary war here in the States....the Brits had the zerg, more pro troops, tons of gear....but the smaller , tightly knit units of the Rebels didthe unexpected and fought like Native Americans as opposed to a European army...and thus coudl harass and damage the larger force , eventually wearing them down by sheer attrition as well as the political entanglements that lead to England giving up...

 

just a Thought...

FIQw0eP.png

let the Code build the World and it's Laws....let the Players build the rest...

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I wonder if the devs have already planned this.

 

You know how there's a Hunger stat?  What if that stat reduces greatly when you're in a massive group/zerg?  The trick of having a large army in the real world, classically, was feeding them and also trying to avoid influenza and the like from spreading in the ranks.  The larger a group is, the more often they'll need to eat.  And hopefully, more mechanics that reflect the logistical nightmare that is large groups.

 

 

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The only penalty to a large nation should a fixed increment in the cost to maintain it based on player count/territory, which should still be easily manageable by an active nation. Just don't discourage zergs -  such an ambition damper.

 

It'll be interesting to see if/how hunger players a roll in this.

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The existence of the ability for players to zerg shouldn't be designed out of the game.  The classic battle between a horde of barbarians vs. a tight-nit unit is a a classic story-telling idea and a regular occurence in history.  This is the stuff epic tales are made of.  What they need to do, is make sure that there are escalating costs to maintaining horde-like entitites.

 

I think they can design the game so that there is opportunities for different sizes of groups and even different types of organizations.  They've already hinted that there will be different types of organizations with their own hierarchies.  I think providing different ways of organizing players, with different types of objectives can be an effective way of combatting the "zerg only" outcome.

 

For instance, if there are "nations" which are designed around holding territory and "guilds" which are designed around business pursuits (crafting, mercenary, etc), then one can conceive of the needs for various groups.  If we get out of the mindeset that a person is only a part of one entity, and that one entity is responsible for all aspects of gameplay, then we can start to think of different systems to handle different sizes of groups performing different functions in the world.

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I think zerg vs zerg has a place as do small gank squads vs gank squads and solo vs solo and then there is wiping zergs with a gank squad which is about as memorable as it gets.

Edited by noobzilla_youtube
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