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Power Vs Casual Gamers


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I am very curious how Crowfall plans on balancing the gap between power gamers and casual gamers. One interesting concept Shadowbane introduced was the concept of city building. Most cities were funded by powergamers with minor contributions by more casual players. This allowed for casual players to have access to end game gears with much less effort than powergamers (piggybacking on powergamers cities) to obtain end game items.

 

Since to my understanding, the game will be mostly PvP focused, it becomes very important that casual gamers can compete with power gamers when it comes down to PvP. It is understandable that power gamers should have an edge but that edge of time versus reward must be a very fine line. If the game is such that investing LOTS of time in the game gives you a huge advantage (especially with items decay, this will be a very fine line) lots of casual players will feel like they are just going to the slauther house when they go PvPing. If there is virtually no benefit, it is power gamers that will get bored.

 

This is why in once again my 'own perfect little world', I would like to see nation achievements being necessary to progress with your items. The easiest for me is via nation 'crafters / tool to craft if the crafters are human players'. Example: To obtain the next improved weapons, the nation needs access to a foundry level 10 which cost 20million gold and XYZ reagents. Every player can donate for the progress of the forge and once the forge hit the amount of gold required, it progresses.

 

In such a concept, what usually happens is that people want the whole nation to progress and not just themselves. They can hoard their resources as power gamers and not upgrade the forges but they just let their whole nation fall behind including themselves. On the other hand, leveling the forges as power gamer gives a chance for casual gamers to not fall too much behind. They still need to acquire what ever is needed to craft their items but they need not to worry about the infrastructure required to get those items.

 

I am just curious what you devs have in mind so that casual and power gamers have something to do within the game. Balancing a game that is focused on PvP cannot be done the same way balancing a game focused on PvE can be. In PvE, you progress at your own rythm, in PvP, there must be some more levels of parity, especially in open PvP as other wise, casual gamers quickly feel like they are just the punching bags of power gamers and end up quitting.

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I am very curious how Crowfall plans on balancing the gap between power gamers and casual gamers. One interesting concept Shadowbane introduced was the concept of city building. Most cities were funde

ummmm....fornicate the casuals...   this doesn't mean i don't welcome them and hope they enjoy the Game and hang out to be part of the Community for a long time   what i mean is  for the love of M

Incoming wall of text:   tl;dr - Hardcore and casual dialogs have become muddled in a back and forth that will probably never end (macro scale).  But personal relationships between casuals and hardc

Nice post, man! Anyway, I wouldn't expect there to be a ridiculous gap between power gamers and casual gamers as the game progresses, usually with all games at the start, and after updates are released there is a big gap because power-games can put more time in, but eventually it levels out and casual-gamers can catch up. :P

Obviously we're all betting that it'll be skill based combat rather than spammy-type key mashing combat where time = better combat ability. 

Last Call (A community guild for friendly peoples waiting out for CrowFall :P): http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/888-last-call-a-community-for-friendly-people/

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Also, often time, giving a reward to power gamers for their contribution that does not impact the game balance (such as naming a forge after the highest gold contributor ('The Newface Forge of the Alliance', putting statues of the highest contributors of all crafting buildings combined (an actual statue of their character), giving a title such as lord all the way down to peasant based on your contribution to a city such as: number 1 contributor is lord, top 5% are generals, top 5 to 25% are lieutnants and the bottom 75% are peasants) without any benefit to it outside of a title often favors contribution of power gamers for the fame and the casual gamer usually cannot care less about never being named lord as he cares more about being competitive in PvP than a title.

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Also, often time, giving a reward to power gamers for their contribution that does not impact the game balance (such as naming a forge after the highest gold contributor ('The Newface Forge of the Alliance', putting statues of the highest contributors of all crafting buildings combined (an actual statue of their character), giving a title such as lord all the way down to peasant based on your contribution to a city such as: number 1 contributor is lord, top 5% are generals, top 5 to 25% are lieutnants and the bottom 75% are peasants) without any benefit to it outside of a title often favors contribution of power gamers for the fame and the casual gamer usually cannot care less about never being named lord as he cares more about being competitive in PvP than a title.

I'd like to be able to say more about this, but we won't know until the game is out, or at least in beta. ;)

Last Call (A community guild for friendly peoples waiting out for CrowFall :P): http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/888-last-call-a-community-for-friendly-people/

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ummmm....fornicate the casuals...

 

this doesn't mean i don't welcome them and hope they enjoy the Game and hang out to be part of the Community for a long time

 

what i mean is  for the love of Moloch, please stop dumbing down Games to coddle the casuals..let them Play, of course...but let those who do the Work and put in the Time EARN their advantage....

 

as opposed to artifically "balancing" things out so a "casual" can feel like a special snowflake and have close to what a dedicated Player has...wiht almost none of the dedicated Time spent

 

how is that "fair"?

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let the Code build the World and it's Laws....let the Players build the rest...

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Considering the message that was up before it changed to Crowfall, I'm wondering if the devs are really aiming for the same goal.  Granted we don't know much yet but I feel that even if this game is niche they are going to be satisfied with the people that do put in the time and effort to play.  Not to say that the casuals aren't going to be encouraged to join in.  I don't think they went in, sat down, and then all said "Let's completely alienate the casual player base."  If anything I think they would sit down and discuss stuf they would like to see and then if it appeals, it'll appeal.  If not then maybe something else they come up with will and you'll learn to deal with the other parts that maybe aren't so much your cup of tea.

 

But I also think that the whole casual vs. hardcore/power/etc. player is getting long in the tooth.  It's like Republicans vs. Democrats makes me just want to lock them all up together with a bunch of rabid weasels to play with. 

 

Anyway as a very small and not scienfitically sound example let's take myself, I would probably be considered casual due to my slower playstyle but I also play like 20 something hours during the weekdays and then even more on weekends (I'm actually trying to change this due to health issues but eh whatevs).  So does that make me a power player just because I put in more time?  Or am I casual because I don't progress as fast?

 

Curiouser and curiouser.

Between dreams and reality.


Lantern Watch

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I agree with doc gonzo, its fine to have casual activities, just make sure that you don't dumb down mechanics to fit their needs.

Remember, this was said many times, but this is not a game for everyone.

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I don't think it will be a problem. The casual gamer will log in with (hopefully) a guild at his back, and whether he gets slaughtered or not, will have a wonderful time in a game unlike any other. He better get better though, or prove to be loyal fodder during a siege.

 

#casualgamersmatter

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I feel completely opposite of Doc Gonzo... Especially in a game where PvP is the focus. Liking a game to be hardcore does not mean liking a game to be where you have to invest stupidly high amounts of time to actually have fun.

 

I invest more time than the average gamer and usually progress extremely fast... and I have very little interest in being so much ahead of the casual gamers that I just run in the middle of 5 casual gamers and just slaughter them without even thinking just because I outgear them so badly.

 

To me, it is much more rewarding that as an above average player, I have an impact on my nation's progress as a whole and not just a fast progress for myself. I like fair fights where I know I won because I outskilled the other player and not just because I have invested 100 hours more than the other dude. I do believe that if I invest more time, I should be rewarded, in equipment yes, but this should be marginal and the impact should be much more in the fact that I have way more impact on how the world of Crowfall will be shaped and how my nation as a whole will progress.

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I feel completely opposite of Doc Gonzo... Especially in a game where PvP is the focus. Liking a game to be hardcore does not mean liking a game to be where you have to invest stupidly high amounts of time to actually have fun.

 

read it again...and catch what i actually typed, NOT what you project...never did i say "stupidly high amounts of time"....what i said is that those who invest the Time should reap proportional rewards over those who do not, simple...really...

 

I invest more time than the average gamer and usually progress extremely fast... and I have very little interest in being so much ahead of the casual gamers that I just run in the middle of 5 casual gamers and just slaughter them without even thinking just because I outgear them so badly.

 

actually i have always advocated the opposite...Player skill should ALWAYS be more important than gear...i despise the whole "epic purplez" thing and clearly state that the BEST gear should ALWAYS be Player made....big difference, eh?

 

but i'f i'm at level cap, and i run into some Players half my level and slaughter them...it should be in part due to my levels, and in part due to my Skill form playing long enough to achieve that level....yes?

 

To me, it is much more rewarding that as an above average player, I have an impact on my nation's progress as a whole and not just a fast progress for myself. I like fair fights where I know I won because I outskilled the other player and not just because I have invested 100 hours more than the other dude. I do believe that if I invest more time, I should be rewarded, in equipment yes, but this should be marginal and the impact should be much more in the fact that I have way more impact on how the world of Crowfall will be shaped and how my nation as a whole will progress.

 

i agree about the marginal equipment gains, as i have stated clearly....but the difference in the Points i have spent and the Abilities at my disposal shoudl be proportionally greater than those under my level/time played to represent the extra work i've put into it over those who have invested less

 

 

risk versus reward isn't just about PvP...it's the entire underpinning og good Game mechanics....rewarding those who do more is a vital part of Progression and growth and should not be curtailed merely to coddle the casuals

 

i want them to enjoy the Game, at their own pace....but c'mon...someone who races go karts on the weekend is not in the same league as the guy whose been racing Grand Prix fro 10 years....yes?

FIQw0eP.png

let the Code build the World and it's Laws....let the Players build the rest...

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ummmm....fornicate the casuals...

 

this doesn't mean i don't welcome them and hope they enjoy the Game and hang out to be part of the Community for a long time

 

what i mean is  for the love of Moloch, please stop dumbing down Games to coddle the casuals..let them Play, of course...but let those who do the Work and put in the Time EARN their advantage....

 

as opposed to artifically "balancing" things out so a "casual" can feel like a special snowflake and have close to what a dedicated Player has...wiht almost none of the dedicated Time spent

 

how is that "fair"?

 

A thousand times this. Those who complete the hardest most challenging content should receive the best rewards. Anyone can do it, streamlining loot has help kill lotro anyway. 

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Games have changed over fifteen years, but basic human desires have not. Risk vs. Reward, and Effort vs. Reward have to be handled well or one group will quit playing. Just like in PvP this is not the real world, players are not fighting for their lives or for their family, if numbers or other advantages are so great that you pummel your enemy repeatedly and destroy his will to fight with player number or time advantages, he will simply stop logging in until there are fewer and fewer enemies left to fight.

 

To bad most hardcore players dont have the wisdom and restraint to be the cat who tortures the mouse for a couple hours before he finally eats it.

Edited by Durost
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Theres definitely a balance that must be achieved. Obviously don't want it too easy ie "dumbed down" but you also don't want to go too far in the opposite direction as there is such a thing in my opinion as too niche. The devs have said they are ok with a niche game but i doubt they mean they only want to cater to a small sect of super hardcore players.

 

I think sieging and city building type stuff if done right can be a great way for players of varying play styles to contribute and feel like they have progressed and been rewarded properly.

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Why is everyone so focused on 'end-game' and 'end-game loot'? Make the whole thing end-game and the balance is mostly there to begin with. Casual players will still be able to join in the mayhem of territorial conquest with or without gear. They could gather the resources for the crafters or even BE a crafter.

 

End-game is for small games like WoW *smile*

 

Let's do this right and not have special things only those who leveled up as fast as they could can be part of. Forget the 'elite crowd' and focus on all players.

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Yeah, I hate the term end-game, when the way I'd rather think of it as "ongoing-game."  It's just familiar terminology, is all.  I do think those people that actually have a job and a life (read: family, other hobbies) should have something in any MMO that they can master.  Hours logged should not be the determining factor of more powerful player by itself, though I have no problem with hours logged = more hands-on experience = more skilled PvPer.

 

 

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What do you want to emulate in pvp?   A world war?  A inter-realm war?  Finding and fighting for new frontiers?  City crime?

 

Is this the virtual Game of Thrones?

 

Whatever the focus...it will make a difference in the PVP mechanics and the 'place' that PVE-centric players will thrive and survive.

 

I shouldn't need a whole guild to help me kill someone that stole my chickens.   For that I want to hire a really good lawman.

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A game should have an aspect for casual gamers to play, but should never be the focus. When Final Fantasy XIV came out it was targeted at the casual gamers and it was a failure, such a failure they scrapped the entire game and rebuilt it.

 

A game should never be designed for power gamers in mind. When the game launches there will be masses that rush to max level and then complain there is nothing to do, it happens with each MMO at release.

 

There needs to be a balance between the two. Players that play more should obviously get more from the game, but casuals should still be able to hang.

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nice post OP! I believe they had a system similar to that in Asheron's Call, (omg that was a long time ago!).  I remember having to get the community together to help build up the resources for new towns, villages, etc, and help maintain or they would get swallowed up by the evil of the land.

 

 Having something along the lines of needing your faction / nation to help contribute to upgrading some core things to add functionality would be fun. On the other side of this, I remember a lot of crafters "myself included" in SWG in which we would scour the markets and talk with players in obtaining the best resources we needed to upgrade / craft a better crafting station or tool which was needed to improve the quality of the crafting stations in use.

 

 It was a fun cycle in which the quality of the tools helped determine how far we could take our new crafting stations which in turn helped us create better items that players needed.

 

 Example, in SWG, we had to wait weeks for the resources to change up on the worlds, then go hunting for the best resources, writing down attributes of them etc, then upgrade our new designs for new tools > then build new crafting stations, in an attempt to make better Harvesting machines with a higher BER rating (which is the extraction rate of resources). 

 

 It was pure bliss for many crafters in learning / experimenting with this system, one I hope to see in similar fashion here =)

Edited by Palad1n
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