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Power Vs Casual Gamers


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This pretty much sums up my opinion in regards to casual players.  If I'm max level, and i see you out there farming, leveling, or collecting resources, I'm going to kill you.  Reached max level and still aren't that good at the PvP in this game and you're looking to improve?  Well!  What is it?  I'll fight you any day (life permitting, of course).  I'm not going to go easy on you.  No, I'm just going to crush you.  And if you can't handle that fact, well that's just too damn bad.  Get gud or get out.  I didn't give up when I got stuck on the Ruin Sentinels boss fight for the first time in Dark Souls 2 (custard THOSE GUYS).  I persevered, kept fighting them, learning how they fight, how to tell what moves they're going to use, etc., and then started to adapt my playstyle, build, and gear to compensate and defeat them.  You can persevere too.  Otherwise, I'm sure we have plenty of openings in the custodial department so you can clean up your poorly made socks PERFORMANCE. 

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I am very curious how Crowfall plans on balancing the gap between power gamers and casual gamers. One interesting concept Shadowbane introduced was the concept of city building. Most cities were funde

ummmm....fornicate the casuals...   this doesn't mean i don't welcome them and hope they enjoy the Game and hang out to be part of the Community for a long time   what i mean is  for the love of M

Incoming wall of text:   tl;dr - Hardcore and casual dialogs have become muddled in a back and forth that will probably never end (macro scale).  But personal relationships between casuals and hardc

Most guilds need the casual gamers. You can have a great core of 10-15 dudes but life happens and they are not always around. The casuals fill the gaps. Maybe not as well as the guy you play with every night but every guild needs a bit of fodder! Not to mention casual gamers fill out the game world. I have said it before but I would rather there be thousands of players all over the place rather than hundreds I never see. Not finding people to fight will quickly kill an open world PvP game.

 

To sum up dont scare them away, we need them!

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Games have changed over fifteen years, but basic human desires have not. Risk vs. Reward, and Effort vs. Reward have to be handled well or one group will quit playing. Just like in PvP this is not the real world, players are not fighting for their lives or for their family, if numbers or other advantages are so great that you pummel your enemy repeatedly and destroy his will to fight with player number or time advantages, he will simply stop logging in until there are fewer and fewer enemies left to fight.

 

To bad most hardcore players dont have the wisdom and restraint to be the cat who tortures the mouse for a couple hours before he finally eats it.

Interestingly, this scenario has already happened, with many of those homeless players who broke their previous game demanding exactly the same game here, even in the forums.  

 

Maybe the game should be called "Crush the Game" or "Kill the Game", or something similar. 

 

I've always been curious, maybe someone could provide the numbers: Who has the monies to pay for these games? So-called "casuals" who have jobs and income, or "hard-cores" who don't seem to have any real world obligations? I think that's the real grievance among the "hard core"; they know games are made by people who require monies to stay in business, but they hate the "casual" players who pay the monies that keep the games going. 

 

Oh look, I found this gold nugget of perspective: Adult women are now the largest gaming demographic...

 

Article: http://www.dailydot.com/geek/adult-women-largest-gaming-demographic/

Proof: http://www.theesa.com/article/women-comprise-nearly-half-gamer-population/

 

Aside related to the lady gamer demographic, many of us don't enjoy poorly made sockse like this: http://gawker.com/what-is-gamergate-and-why-an-explainer-for-non-geeks-1642909080

 

We'll see how this conundrum un-knots. Should be highly amusing. 

Edited by iridianshadowweaver

Click your profile name>Click Manage Ignore Prefs>Find "Add a new user to my list" at the bottom of the page>Type in a username>Check options>Save Changes>Silence is bliss.

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Interestingly, this scenario has already happened, with many of those homeless players who broke their previous game demanding exactly the same game here, even in the forums.  

 

Maybe the game should be called "Crush the Game" or "Kill the Game", or something similar. 

 

I've always been curious, maybe someone could provide the numbers: Who has the monies to pay for these games? So-called "casuals" who have jobs and income, or "hard-cores" who don't seem to have any real world obligations? I think that's the real grievance among the "hard core"; they know games are made by people who require monies to stay in business, but they hate the "casual" players who pay the monies that keep the games going. 

 

Oh look, I found this gold nugget of perspective: Adult women are now the largest gaming demographic...

 

Article: http://www.dailydot.com/geek/adult-women-largest-gaming-demographic/

Proof: http://www.theesa.com/article/women-comprise-nearly-half-gamer-population/

 

Aside related to the lady gamer demographic, many of us don't enjoy ****e like this: http://gawker.com/what-is-gamergate-and-why-an-explainer-for-non-geeks-1642909080

 

We'll see how this conundrum un-knots. Should be highly amusing. 

I hear ya.  I thought this same way too...............................and then I read and re read some of the devs posts.  And then I read this:

 

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2013-04-12-gordon-walton-publishers-see-devs-as-replaceable-meat-puppets

 

 

So how they will rectify the "niche game " model versus  needed capital inflow will be very interesting.

 

I think Todd said it will either work or it won't...................I think they are very aware of the risk they are taking.

 

I know for a fact you have some of the best devs in the business working on this game so that amplifies their chances of success.

 

It certainly will be interesting to watch..................................

Maybe it not about the happy ending. Maybe it's about the story.

RIP Doc Gonzo "to anyone...speak your mind...defend your position...be prepared for an Argument and enjoy the process of the discussion...that's all part of any good Forum experience"

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There should alwayes be a difference betveen hardcore and casual players, ALWAYES, WoW is a perfect example of how trying to balance those two will result in a total catastrophy, NOTHING TO DO, for those trying to get that xtra, overflood of ressources, garrison working by themselves, idling at ur garrison waiting on ur missions to complete, trolling the chat, u dont need to grind anything, as everything is grinding it self, getting gear through missions and casual raiding, and pvp gear giving out in welfare boxes, damn, the game has no reward, u cant win anything and theres no struggle, theres no chase, and no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, PLEASE, for the love of the mmorpg future, do not give welfare legendaries, items, ressources, or pvp attributes in this game. As a casual gamer my self, meaning i dont have the 5-8hours daily to spend on a game, i would even be bored, if there was nobody to look up to in the game, or have greater heroes to compete with, and trying to get there my self, there needs to be a difference, i need something to work toward, maybe one holliday, i will spend a whole week gaming catching up on alot of stuff, and feel rightiously rewarded. ( Sorry for the insane bad grammar) Not my native language.

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I hear ya.  I thought this same way too...............................and then I read and re read some of the devs posts.  And then I read this:

 

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2013-04-12-gordon-walton-publishers-see-devs-as-replaceable-meat-puppets

 

 

So how they will rectify the "niche game " model versus  needed capital inflow will be very interesting.

 

I think Todd said it will either work or it won't...................I think they are very aware of the risk they are taking.

 

I know for a fact you have some of the best devs in the business working on this game so that amplifies their chances of success.

 

It certainly will be interesting to watch..................................

If this thing isn't up to my standards and interests, I'll just go elsewhere. It's good to have monies to spend wherever I choose. Yes. 

 

I wonder, is it possible this game is a last shout to lost youth? Mid-life crisis for old-school gamer dudes? Now that would sell well, lolz. Lots of those people with jobs and monies to spend on recreating glory lost. 

 

Oh, and that article about Gordon Walton. I'm amazed that he holds such value for good teamwork, yet he let these forums happen. Accident, maybe?

Edited by iridianshadowweaver

Click your profile name>Click Manage Ignore Prefs>Find "Add a new user to my list" at the bottom of the page>Type in a username>Check options>Save Changes>Silence is bliss.

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Incoming wall of text:

 

tl;dr - Hardcore and casual dialogs have become muddled in a back and forth that will probably never end (macro scale).  But personal relationships between casuals and hardcores have and will continue to exist (micro scale).

 

I think there are a lot of misconceptions between the "hardcore" and "casual" crowds.  And due to sterotyping and posturing the information has gotten very muddled over the years.  What I read and hear about "casuals" from those who claim to be "hardcore" is that they are the equivalent of sheep and want everything served to them on a silver platter.  They are weak and require hand holding.  Granted many times it is said in much fouler language than that but you get the idea.

 

And then the comments about the "hardcore" from those who claim to be "casuals" are that they are the scum of the earth that not even a mother could love.  They get their jollies from ganking lowbies and then corpse camping them for hours for the lulz.  They want to FFA and non-consensual PvP to prove they are that much better than others, etc.  Thing is the "casuals" can be just as foul mouthed and confrontational as the so called "hardcore" folks.

 

Both sides are super passionate about their style of play and want others to see where they are coming from.  I don't think that either side will let go of stereotypes for the general crowd but you'll find a lot of friendships bridging the games if you get more to a microcosm scale.  Personal relationships always trump the big picture for something like this (see politics in general lol).

 

But considering how long many gamers have been playing MMOs I give most of us the benefit of a doubt that they are somewhat gainfully employed and have other obligations in life.  The difference that I see (not that this is true for everyone) is that those who don't game as much but are still very much invested in their chosen world see the game as a fun diversion and something to play as a way to escape a job.  And those who do dedicate more time and progress very quickly, trying to eek out the maximum amount of offensive or defensive power from their characters are seeing the game as something different.

 

A player's dedication to something shouldn't, in my opinion, be solely dictacted by how many raw hours they put into a game.  Some people can log into a game for hours and never "progress" using any definition of the word that you would like.  And others can do amazing things in an hour or two.

 

What the "hardcore" and the "casual" are looking for may be a bit different but I think for at least the folks here on the forums, we're looking for a new home that will hopefully bring something exciting and different to the board.  Something that will change how we think about all these concepts like "FFA" or PvP centric" or "player driven economy."

 

Well if you have reached the end of this wall of text I commend you.  This is one of those topics that I'm morbidly curious about.  And don't think me so naive as to think that the two sides should hold hands and sing songs.  Fling all the poo you wish but these are just my thoughts on the matter.

Between dreams and reality.


Lantern Watch

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A casual is just a guy who plays less, now individual skill level is the true difference, and u cant change that with all the changes in the world, theres alwayes someboy more skilled. The more you train, the better fighter you become, the more you craft, the better crafter you become, this is a universal law, we are humans, and we can adapt and improve and copy another mans success by redoing it, theres no secret potion to become a master in ur art, only hard work, and repetitive training in the given art you want to master. Balancing to much in terms of time invested, will result of exactly the opposite, NO result of ur hard training. Wich is basically the pvp of WoW right now, and by all the pvp games out there, it is the best in matter of motions and fast forward, but the rewards are = 0 hence more and more are quitting it, those left behind are innit cause theres nothing else to fill that HUGE gab left behind, when quitting a mmorpg, And i know that for a fact, as i just quit my self, as there was no end to these trivial pvp campaigns, no community anymore, and nothing to gain, might as well PLAY Dota2

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I guess I should clarify a few things...

A- Casual does not equal bad

B- Hardcore does not equal skilled

 

Casual versus hardcore is merely the amount of time invested in a game. 1 concept I did like and found fairly unique about Shadowbane was the relation between power gamers and casual gamers. Nations, to be successful, needed both.

 

A nation with no powergamers to massively rune hunt, farm, build cities and so on would take for ever or would never devellop into anything. At the same time, a nation composed of only power gamers would usually have low numbers... hence putting them at very low bane capabilities despite having the best gears, the most money and so on.

 

It was this coexistance of both the power gamer and the casual gamer and both being required that made the game interesting. Many features of the game failed, but this is 1 of the things I loved about this game.

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Games have changed over fifteen years, but basic human desires have not. Risk vs. Reward, and Effort vs. Reward have to be handled well or one group will quit playing. Just like in PvP this is not the real world, players are not fighting for their lives or for their family, if numbers or other advantages are so great that you pummel your enemy repeatedly and destroy his will to fight with player number or time advantages, he will simply stop logging in until there are fewer and fewer enemies left to fight.

 

To bad most hardcore players dont have the wisdom and restraint to be the cat who tortures the mouse for a couple hours before he finally eats it.

Very good point IMO. Truth is while they might not want to admit it both sides of the spectrum need each other for a healthy thriving game. You need players of varying play styles and interests for healthy economies and community's. You need PvPr's you need crafters and those who do a mix of both etc.

 

Also as others alluded to while the dev has said they are willing to make a niche game and take risks I doubt they mean that they only want to cater to one type of player, doing so would be gaming suicide regardless of what your vision and how strongly you feel about it is.

Edited by pang
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First, try to realize that casual is not a person, it's a playstyle. Anyone at any time can make the choice to play a game casually or nonstop, and can freely move between the two in varying degrees.

 

With that established, think about game systems catering to a specific playstyle and it makes a lot more sense. You can have PvP be an activity which requires a large time investment while hanving other activities require less. You can even have multiple PvP activities which all require varying amounts of time investment which would cater to multiple play styles without dumbing down any one system. You can apply this to crafting, gathering, any other system you want.

 

A drawback of this is that it may spread your games population out to thin and your preferred activity may be a ghost town.

 

But if you balance the amount of activities with your player population and add ways for multiple play styles to still interact and support each other in various ways, you succeed in creating a truly diverse game which is both engaging and attractive and caters to any type of mood you're in.

 

That way you're not just playing Crowfall when you're in the mood to really get into PvP, you're in the mood to play Crowfall when you're in the mood to play any which way.

Edited by foomerang
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First, try to realize that casual is not a person, it's a playstyle. Anyone at any time can make the choice to play a game casually or nonstop, and can freely move between the two in varying degrees.

 

With that established, think about game systems catering to a specific playstyle and it makes a lot more sense. You can have PvP be an activity which requires a large time investment while hanving other activities require less. You can even have multiple PvP activities which all require varying amounts of time investment which would cater to multiple play styles without dumbing down any one system. You can apply this to crafting, gathering, any other system you want.

 

A drawback of this is that it may spread your games population out to thin and your preferred activity may be a ghost town.

 

But if you balance the amount of activities with your player population and add ways for multiple play styles to still interact and support each other in various ways, you succeed in creating a truly diverse game which is both engaging and attractive and caters to any type of mood you're in.

 

That way you're not just playing Crowfall when you're in the mood to really get into PvP, you're in the mood to play Crowfall when you're in the mood to play any which way.

 

Unfortunately I think with some folks there is no separation between playstyle and the person.  And thus why you get the back and forth between the two groups.  Especially when things spiral out of control and the personal attacks start appearing.  But as with many things in life there is a gradient and people fall within it depending on their whims.

Between dreams and reality.


Lantern Watch

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That way you're not just playing Crowfall when you're in the mood to really get into PvP, you're in the mood to play Crowfall when you're in the mood to play any which way.

This will be the marker of success or failure of the game, IMO. Unfortunately, there are many, many voices here who insist there should be no place for casual play in Crowfall, and who promise to grief casaul gamers out of the game. I don't see this as a promising start to the game we are all craving. 

 

Let's see, according to some voices in these forums, we are weak and pathetic if we:

 

Only play on the weekend,

Only play a few hours a week,

Want elements of solo play,

Want pets,

Want a few protected areas,

Want a storyline,

Want to play healer class, etc. 

 

I could add to the list, I'm sure, but y'all get the picture. 

 

This whole forum thing has been alienating, to say the least, for many gamers who take pride in our skill and accomplishments and who have been labeled as sheep. 

Edited by iridianshadowweaver

Click your profile name>Click Manage Ignore Prefs>Find "Add a new user to my list" at the bottom of the page>Type in a username>Check options>Save Changes>Silence is bliss.

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This will be the marker of success or failure of the game, IMO. Unfortunately, there are many, many voices here who insist there should be no place for casual play in Crowfall, and who promise to grief casaul gamers out of the game. I don't see this as a promising start to the game we are all craving. 

 

Let's see, according to some voices in these forums, we are weak and pathetic if we:

 

Only play on the weekend,

Only play a few hours a week,

Want elements of solo play,

Want pets,

Want a few protected areas,

Want a storyline,

Want to play healer class, etc. 

 

I could add to the list, I'm sure, but y'all get the picture. 

 

This whole forum thing has been alienating, to say the least, for many gamers who take pride in our skill and accomplishments and who have been labeled as sheep. 

 

Keep in mind there's a difference between casual/hardcore and open PvP/no open PvP.

 

I work a 9-5 job, as do the majority of SB and DF players. Even if someone isn't playing the game that much or taking it that seriously, the open PvP style is just more exhilarating and raises the stakes.

 

There's nothing wrong with healers or being fine with limited play time or some protected areas; most PvP fans are in favor of all of those. Healers are very important in combat.

 

Pets are ok, but are just unimportant in the scheme of things.

 

The problem with solo play (beyond solo/roaming PvP, which many PvP players enjoy) and a built-in storyline is that games like these are intended to be player-driven. The existing aspects of the world serve to facilitate players crafting their own world, history, and story. We don't know 100% if that's what this game is going to be, but that's very much what it looks like at this point.

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Interestingly, this scenario has already happened, with many of those homeless players who broke their previous game demanding exactly the same game here, even in the forums.  

 

Maybe the game should be called "Crush the Game" or "Kill the Game", or something similar. 

I love how you assume it was the players that destroyed those games without YOU having played them.

 

You know what killed Shadowbane which was a top 10 MMO when it came out? It wasn't the players, it was the game itself.

 

The game was an open world pvp game centered on sieges and player driven politics (sound familiar?) except that you really couldn't do that in the first year the game came out since if you got too many players in one spot the game crashed. The game was also supposed to have a core feature that would allow players to travel to other worlds (servers) and fight there (Does this sound familiar?) but when the game was released it wasn't there because they didn't have time nor did they ever introduce it in any patch or expansion. The game also had Line of Sight problems out the butt and melee lag synch issues. Since the game was PvP centered the PvE was minimal and basically on the order of watching paint dry. Now keep that all in mind when this occurs:

 

You and 29 other guildmates spend over a month leveling/farming the PvE content and build up your city. This takes millions of gold and bored you out of your skull but you got a city in a prime location: right near the most popular discipline rune in the game. That means you have a very good shot to get this rune that only had one dropper in the whole world and he only spawns every 6 hours (that means you can only get 4 a day). However that is a double edge sword since guild X on the other side of the map is tired of being beaten out for the rune and paying your guild members 5 to 6 million gold for the rune. So they take that gold instead and get a bane scroll and that scroll is what allows a guild to initiate the games siege mechanics.

 

So there you are you log in one day and find you are baned, your Guild leader set the time the siege goes live for 2 days hence at 11pm EST and wants everyone to rally 2 hours prior. So on the appointed day you, your 29 guildmates and 75 to 100 "allied" players from other guilds form up at 9pm. Just before the bane goes live the attacking force shows up numbering 150 total and both sides start to skirmish. All of a sudden when the bane goes live, you start having so much lag it is like watching a slide show and then you get the dreaded "SB.exe" error and then you crash. By the time you get logged back in, you find that you are dead and at the ruins so you recall back to town to find the attacking force has killed all the defenders off and are knocking the walls down. So you and your 29 guildmates start summoning back in your allies (no fast way to travel to another city in those days). By the time you get all your force back it has been 20 to 30 mins and the first set of walls are down and the second set at half health. So you go and try and drive the defenders off and...you crash again. Now at that point the attackers that survived are attacking the Tree of Life in your town. So you and your guildmates rally up and do a mass recall and push the attackers out...YAY! However the fight is not over, you have to destroy the bane stone so you set about that task. While your doing that the attackers rally back up, march back and attack and again...You crash.

 

Now keep repeating that scenario as the night wears on and eventually the attackers win and destroy your town. Over a month of hard work doing something mind numbingly boring just to lose it in a few hours, not because you sucked or got out played but because your side had more players SB.exe and die then the attackers.

 

Now would you stick around to try and rebuild after that experience? Most of the players didn't stick around for the fixes that were made they left and UBIsoft lost half its income from the game. Servers were shut down and consolidated and that was just the US side that doesn't even take into account what happened to the company that had the rights in Asia, what happened to it and the chain of events that led to the final death of the game.

 

Now explain how it was us players that stuck it out that killed the game? 

Edited by gauis
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I love how you assume it was the players that destroyed those games without YOU having played them.

 

Now explain how it was us players that stuck it out that killed the game? 

My understanding is that games often die when the environment becomes so toxic and un-fun for new and casual players that they stop logging in. 

 

That info comes directly from some of the very players who hung on to the bitter end of various now-dead games. Some of those players are not happy to see the same toxicity here, even before we have a game to play, because they HAVE had the misfortune to watch their games die. There are quite a few references to just this problem here in these forums. But please do pardon my assumptions. I realize that my non-SB experience makes me inferior and uninformed, that's been made painfully clear over the past few weeks. 

 

Happily, MY games are alive and thriving, and I'm just here to see if there might be anything interesting for me to pursue. So far, I'm very impressed with the concept art and mechanics that have been revealed. Of course, if the game is all griefy and hostile, I won't play.   

Edited by iridianshadowweaver

Click your profile name>Click Manage Ignore Prefs>Find "Add a new user to my list" at the bottom of the page>Type in a username>Check options>Save Changes>Silence is bliss.

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Keep in mind there's a difference between casual/hardcore and open PvP/no open PvP.

 

I work a 9-5 job, as do the majority of SB and DF players. Even if someone isn't playing the game that much or taking it that seriously, the open PvP style is just more exhilarating and raises the stakes.

 

There's nothing wrong with healers or being fine with limited play time or some protected areas; most PvP fans are in favor of all of those. Healers are very important in combat.

 

Pets are ok, but are just unimportant in the scheme of things.

 

The problem with solo play (beyond solo/roaming PvP, which many PvP players enjoy) and a built-in storyline is that games like these are intended to be player-driven. The existing aspects of the world serve to facilitate players crafting their own world, history, and story. We don't know 100% if that's what this game is going to be, but that's very much what it looks like at this point.

I'm just pointing out that all of those sorts of ideas, desires, etc. have been thoroughly stifled and shut down, and the message sent is that there's no room here for casual gamers. Personally, I want the PvP thing, but I don't want to do that every moment I'm in any game. It gets old after a while, and I really don't think a game without some elements of traditional MMOs will draw many gamers who enjoy many activities, instead of just one.  

Click your profile name>Click Manage Ignore Prefs>Find "Add a new user to my list" at the bottom of the page>Type in a username>Check options>Save Changes>Silence is bliss.

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If the game is going to be PvP centric as it seems it will be, then I think it would be safe to then say that PvP should flavor just about every aspect of the game.  It should bring about a sense of communitas for those who want to rely on others and a healthy sense of danger for those who are flying solo.

 

But it shouldn't be the only thing to do in the game. 

 

If you like crafting and need to gather resources, the PvP nature of the game should make you think twice about going alone.  Maybe bring a friend or five.  Or if you want to go it alone it should give you a heighten since of danger because you're risking not being able to make it back.  But if you do then you can high five yourself and be proud of your accomplishments.

 

If you like exploring the PvP aspects of the game should encourage you to be observant of your surroundings.  You can appreciate all of the details and the effort that the devs put into making this world but you can also be ready to defend yourself at the moments notice.  And maybe you'll discover something cool while you're looking around make sure no one is trying to stab you in the back.

 

The actual PvP stuff should then in turn be influenced by the world and those who don't live, eat, and breathe PvP.  I would love for a game to one day make cartography a thing.  Maybe someone who likes to explore is able to create additional details for someone who wants to siege someone.  Two different play styles but one common goal.

Between dreams and reality.


Lantern Watch

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