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Asesino

Movement in combat

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just going to add this ridiculous clip of a champion leaping in and out of my full group ignoring my confessor stun from the last playtest...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJd-U_5zqWc

 

b.

s.

 

I didn't say this last night, but I really do not think that champion leap needs much tweaking.  I think going to a triple jump full bar would be useful.  

But I was fully prepared before I leaped in to turn around and leap out.  Burst mobility is the champ MO and I think it's fine that they are very good at it.

Edited by mctan

Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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When I wrote "allows W101/P101 and Shadowbane players to slowly transition to action MMO", I had in mind the SB/W101/P101 players who haven't played action MMOs yet.

 

I guess that those who already got used to action-combat MMOs wouldn't benefit from any kind of initiation to action-combat MMOs.

I can't say for W101, but I don't know any SB players like that. I don't think it's a thing.

 

I know some who aren't very good at certain action games, but everyone I see here from SB I have seen or played with in action games.

 

If that dodo bird does exist it would be a terrible business model to design with him in mind. Which is my point.

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I can't say for W101, but I don't know any SB players like that. I don't think it's a thing.

 

I know some who aren't very good at certain action games, but everyone I see here from SB I have seen or played with in action games.

 

If that dodo bird does exist it would be a terrible business model to design with him in mind. Which is my point.

 

I'm sure there are 100,000s millions of W101/P101/SB players who have never got into action-combat MMOs.

Edited by courant101

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I agree. That entire argument is essentially one large childish ad hominem attack on a non-existent group of gamers. Who in the world really thinks that Shadowbane players didn't move on after Shadowbane and play (generally with great success) all of the same games the rest of the twitchtards played?

 

Furthermore the idea that the devs somehow believe that silliness and designed to account for such nonsense is utterly ridiculous.

Sorry but the vocal shadowbane players on these forums are exactly the ones that didn't move on after shadowbane and have any success.  They are the ones that complained about the ks video being too twitchy, they are the ones that suggested the game switch to tab-targeting.  They are the ones that play shadowbane emulator servers and claim the newer games just aren't good enough, while they get their jollies killing 640x480 pixelated trees in a buggy click to move game with a fraction of the population games have these days.

 

It's kind of ridiculous to act like they are good at action combat considering we saw some of them as the earliest backers streaming the game and they had trouble even steering their characters.

 

As for how the combat was introduced and to what degree of movement was allowed, they were definitely catering the game to people who may not be very experienced with action combat mmos, there is no way they were actually catering to players used to intense competitive action combat. 

 

It makes sense why they would do this, their initial hype generation was towards people from JTC's old games, but I think ultimately it wasn't the most efficient way to go because it made testing too slow for a lot of testers to stomach and they got burned out.

 

As I've said in another thread, they would have been better off making the combat too fast at the start because even while they tweak combat that is too fast, it being fast gives it a higher skill-ceiling which at least gives testers something to improve upon which prevents them from getting too bored. 

 

When this game was first introduced a lot of people from shadowbane and wiz101 thought this game was being tailored specifically to them, this created a silly expectation from their perspective and in reality a game that they envisioned would never be financially self-sufficient in these times. 

 

They have to free up movement in combat... it was plainly obvious 5seconds into testing the game initially, and it still has a long ways to go, but the game is still in development, and speeding up combat shouldn't be all that hard once they realize just how much it needs to be sped up. 

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I didn't say this last night, but I really do not think that champion leap needs much tweaking.  I think going to a triple jump full bar would be useful.  

But I was fully prepared before I leaped in to turn around and leap out.  Burst mobility is the champ MO and I think it's fine that they are very good at it.

 

Agreed, they should remove the free second leap and make it so you can get 3 leaps with leather. Plus in that clip it looks like he didnt hit the stun because he wasnt aimed at you when the stun was used.

 

 

snip

 

- rant inc -

 

Really it comes down to T.Blair. He said he doesnt like strafe combat, "Running in circles" and he made DCUO the rooted stand in place  punch each other game. Hes said he doesnt want combat to fast because then people cant react. 

 

People need to get their head out of the sand and look at whats happened to other games.

 

ESO for example, has similar combat BUT is much faster without roots (even at its poorly made socksty launch) AND PEOPLE STILL HATED IT and most MMO players left because it was so slow and clunky compared to what they were used to. (Elder scrolls fans left too but for different reasons)

 

How do you think those same MMO players will react to CF when its slower, clunkier and rooted.

 

And the devs here havent learned form a year of feedback. They keep adding things that add to this problem, IE:

 

- New UI system that completely takes over your screen, have to wait for it to scroll in and out, TONS of wasted space, cant use on the move, cant hardly see any thing around your character etc.

 

- Double tray mechanic.... WHY!? we have a keyboard with 100 keys, so why add in this slow clunky toggle when you can have them all on screen with 1 big bar or 2 bars... console? hogwash (fyi you dont need to force a "cooldown" between life/death or ranged/melee for balance purposes, just BALANCE around the ability to use any skill at any time OMFG what a concept... and imagine how smooth and fast that would be)

 

- Druid where almost all skills are rooted, after all our feedback

 

- ranged archetypes who didnt get movement on L click. slower 30-50% speed makes so much sense (see smite, amazing combat)

 

- wasting time on controller support because thats not slow and clunky... oh wait, maybe this slow, rooted combat is intentional for consoles and controllers.

 

 

 

Confessor changes were good but more needs to happen. Why are insta cast spells like #1,1 or 4 rooted? why cant I move when casting a self shield #2 or the pulsing AOE 2e, it lets you move once used but I cant use while casting? Or Champion #1 spin attack... why force a useless #1 that roots you before being able to use the movement ability?! Why does the champ #5 self buff have to root? 

 

I makes me mad because i dont seeing it changing. And thousands of people will get in on launch and say WTF is this poorly made socks and leave.

Edited by Ziz

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The mass generalization that shadowbane players are anti-twitch is ridiculous. Please link the quotes form the so called legion of shadowbane vets complaining during the KS vids that the game appeared too twitchy. The #1 complaint I read was removing that telegraph Wildstar style crap.


Hammers High !!  Master Brewer of the Dwarven Hold Mithril Warhammers

 

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I got to participate in my first play test the other day. I started backing this game because of the openness of customization of your characters for combat; Skills, passives, gear, ect. I personally think that is awesome, I love games were the developers allow for so much customization. But what is really drawing me back is the fact that characters can not move while casting most spells or attacks. I hope this is will change in the future because of how important movement is during combat, especially for "Mage" and " Archer"  type characters in this game. Not being able to move while casting/channeling really takes away from combat dynamics and strategy.

 

What I noticed while testing is that attacking another player the both of you are standing there hitting each other, much like an old western duel. Which is ok I guess, until an enemy melee player joins the fight and you are forced to run.

 

I know this is still Alpha testing and the game is far from being released, but I was curious if this was a feature that was here to stay and of opinions of other players on this.

The danger here is turning Crowfall into Rangefall where everyone plays the mobile range dps with snare and hide because playing anything else is just too gimp. Everyone knows the Ranger range tray needs love.


Hammers High !!  Master Brewer of the Dwarven Hold Mithril Warhammers

 

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Agreed, they should remove the free second leap and make it so you can get 3 leaps with leather. Plus in that clip it looks like he didnt hit the stun because he wasnt aimed at you when the stun was used.

 

 

 

- rant inc -

 

Really it comes down to T.Blair. He said he doesnt like strafe combat, "Running in circles" and he made DCUO the rooted stand in place  punch each other game. Hes said he doesnt want combat to fast because then people cant react. 

 

 

I don't know what blair's title was on DCUO, but that game did play like rock 'em sock 'em robots. Regardless the combo system was a hundred times better than what we got now and was largely why combat felt good in that game. If we had a combo input system like that in CF, maybe I wouldn't of mine the animation locks so much.

 

That whole debacle with not wanting orbital combat / strafe combat kinda blew my mind way back when. I mean like really? Cause moving in all cardinal directions is a bad thing  :rolleyes: . It's the same with the whole kiting argument.

 

I do agree there are quite a few abilities that immobilize you for no good reason (remember when eternal raged rooted you in place?). I think this is largely due to consistency but it irks me to no end.

 

I also don't agree that a game needs to be slow and sluggish in order for people to "react".

Edited by helix

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I didn't say this last night, but I really do not think that champion leap needs much tweaking.  I think going to a triple jump full bar would be useful.  

But I was fully prepared before I leaped in to turn around and leap out.  Burst mobility is the champ MO and I think it's fine that they are very good at it.

 

Agreed, they should remove the free second leap and make it so you can get 3 leaps with leather. Plus in that clip it looks like he didnt hit the stun because he wasnt aimed at you when the stun was used.

 

yup was well played. good trolling and wasting our powers! :P

 

as ziz says I did not hit the power to stun you over the player model - because of the instant 180 change of direction and speed of leaping mctan planned :P

Edited by Tinnis

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I'm sure there are 100,000s millions of W101/P101/SB players who have never got into action-combat MMOs.

I'm sure there's a joke in here someplace, but I swear I can't find it man.

 

Did a million people even play all of those games combined? I have no idea about the Carebear 2, which is the reason I didn't comment on them.

 

As for, SB, which I did comment on, well... that's ridiculous.

Edited by coolwaters

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I'm sure there's a joke in here someplace, but I swear I can't find it man.

 

Did a million people even play all of those games combined? I have no idea about the Carebear 2, which is the reason I didn't comment on them.

 

As for, SB, which I did comment on, well... that's ridiculous.

 

As of December 2014, 50 million players played/had played Wizard101. It's probably more now, a year and a half later.

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Wiz101 had way more players than shadowbane but they are definitely both games where the most passionate players are very inexperienced with action combat mmos... the type of players that find wiz101 or shadowbane very attractive generally aren't the type that would then go on to really be enticed by the high skill-ceiling that action combat can often bring in modern games.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Part of the problem is they seem to be stuck in the past, modern gaming requires movement.

 

Look at car manufacturers, they took the good from the past and combine it with the modern.  All the new Chargers and muscle cars nowadays are using the body design of the old (to a degree) but that doesn't mean they don't add power windows, air conditioning, GPS, ect ect. It's kind of ludacris to not move forward, could you imagine if Ford starting making cars with stone wheels because the CEO thought the Flintstone cars were great.

 

They really need to accept that times have changed, originally they said they were aiming for a Tera/Wildstar type combat, what they have created is an abomination that quite frankly is not enjoyable at all.

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Part of the problem is they seem to be stuck in the past, modern gaming requires movement.

 

Look at car manufacturers, they took the good from the past and combine it with the modern.  All the new Chargers and muscle cars nowadays are using the body design of the old (to a degree) but that doesn't mean they don't add power windows, air conditioning, GPS, ect ect. It's kind of ludacris to not move forward, could you imagine if Ford starting making cars with stone wheels because the CEO thought the Flintstone cars were great.

 

They really need to accept that times have changed, originally they said they were aiming for a Tera/Wildstar type combat, what they have created is an abomination that quite frankly is not enjoyable at all.

 

It's probably more a question of budget than the desire to get stuck in the past. Creating a combat similar to BDO alone possibly cost more than the total budget of Crowfall.

Edited by courant101

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It's probably more a question of budget than the desire to get stuck in the past. Creating a combat similar to BDO alone possibly cost more than the total budget of Crowfall.

 

This is true but it doesn't have to be BDO, it can work towards something like that. Wildstar combat was pretty good and is still modern enough that they could start with something like that.

 

I would also say that Combat is (arguably) the single most important factor of a PvP game (PvE games as well), maybe they have to trim the budget somewhere else if that's the case.

 

Back to car analogies, the engine is the most important part, you could have a Ferrari sitting in your driveway and it would look awesome but if you can't drive it ... it's just a really expensive paper weight.

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First of all I have to agree with the dev's idea that skating on ice strafe style combat like GW2 and Wildstar is not the way to go. It doesn't have the same type of skill that a game like TERA or Black Desert have at endgame. They also don't feel good because you feel like you're floating in the air, there's also no weight to attacks, and there's no penalty to choosing the wrong skill or having bad timing, because you can just keep moving to avoid a hit or adjust your aim. And please keep your ego's out of this, nobody cares if you love Wildstar or GW2, the combat just isn't as good or skill based, that's a fact (for the record I'm not playing any of those 4 games). Also, the telegraphs are ugly.

 

Secondly can we discuss the difference between rooted attacks and animation locking? What made TERA and Black Desert a success was that their skills were not rooted (aside from the occasional high damage skill that required it for balance). Most did have animation locking, which means your abilities do have a set animation that, if broken, would cancel the skill, but these animations moved your character. So every attack kept you moving in one way or another, you were never rooted so it felt fun, but it also added an extra degree of skill. Aside from the skill associated with any type of animation locking, it also meant that you chose skills based on where and how they moved your character sometimes, not just because of what the skill did. Even your basic auto attacks for melee classes kept you moving forwards. Ranged classes had a mix of mobile and rooted skills but they also had a wide array of CC and movement abilities to counter the melee and keep themselves at range when need be.

 

So I think making Crowfall's animations into mobile, movement heavy animations, while keeping the idea of locked animations, will make everyone happy. Yes faster animations is necessary, but making more of them movement heavy animation locking, instead of going to the Wildstar style skating on ice, is the best way to go.

Edited by Leiloni

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Movement in combat is BAD right now. Combat feels very ROOTED. The few abilities that are able to be used while on the move (mostly melee left click attacks) feel so much more fluid and rewarding than the rooted abilities. 

 

I think EVERY ability needs to be able to be used while on the move. The ONLY exceptions to this would be like the Champion stone invulnerability and the druid druid "C" ability that roots her in place but heals, the confessor ability that restores mana, etc. Anything other than abilities such as these should be able to be used on the move.

 

A great example is the druid left click heal orb. When trying to heal oneself you have to stop to wait on the animation of the orb to cast so by the time you've received the healing from it you've taken twice that amount of damage from the melee guy chasing you. 

 

Please ACE, less rooted combat. If you really want to improve the "feel" of combat then this is how you do it. Allow for EVERYTHING (other than exceptions noted above) to be used on the move. 

Edited by blazzen

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This is true but it doesn't have to be BDO, it can work towards something like that. Wildstar combat was pretty good and is still modern enough that they could start with something like that.

 

I would also say that Combat is (arguably) the single most important factor of a PvP game (PvE games as well), maybe they have to trim the budget somewhere else if that's the case.

 

Back to car analogies, the engine is the most important part, you could have a Ferrari sitting in your driveway and it would look awesome but if you can't drive it ... it's just a really expensive paper weight.

 

I agree with you, if I'm correct the plan was to get something that felt similar to TERA (short animation lock, similar control / camera and combos) and Wildstar for the movement, but with reduced mobility so it does feel more like a realistic-ish medieval battlefield where positioning, tactics and reacting to attacks were emphasized. However I guess that to accomplish those 3 things, they opted for less mobile powers than what we see in TERA or other action combat MMOs. The devs describe the game as a mix between a strategy game and MMO, so the plan now seems to be a combat like the one we got now, but with more powers allowing movement and overall shorter animations (e.g. recent Confessor rework with animations way shorter than the original ones).

Edited by courant101

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