Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
tierless

Column; PVPers Need PVErs

Recommended Posts

"For years I was convinced that all we needed was a sandbox to PVP in. Recently I found myself coming to a conclusion that sent chills up my spine. Maybe it took so long to get a proper PVP sandbox that the MMORPG genre passed it by? (puts on flame suit) Maybe in 2016 PVPers need PVErs in their game to flesh it out and make it feel like more than a glorified FPS “VS” match?"

 

Link HERE


I role play a wordsmith.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree, and to me it was proven in EvE years ago.  The PvP fun in the 0.0 systems is alive, because the devs have funding from the hi-sec system dwellers.  The universe feels more alive as well.

 

I personally think we need to tie in the EKs, and use them like hi-sec systems, and then use the CWs as 0.0 systems.


lUvvzPy.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know much about EVE, what's the hi-sec systems? That reference is lost to me.

 

 

No matter how you look at it, PvPers need PvEers, and it's the same the other way around. Better players inspire lesser foes to 'git gud'.


 

OS_Sig3.png

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know much about EVE, what's the hi-sec systems? That reference is lost to me.

 

 

No matter how you look at it, PvPers need PvEers, and it's the same the other way around. Better players inspire lesser foes to 'git gud'.

Hi-sec systems were relatively safe; if you watched what you were doing, it was near impossible to lose a ship in hi-sec.  There were 3 tiers of systems in EvE, hi-sec (ranked 0.5-1.0), low-sec (ranked 0.1-0.4) and null-sec (ranked 0.0).  Null-sec or 0.0 systems was where you could attack anyone without any system impunity or penalties, other than ones the players made; while in low-sec if you attacked someone near a jump gate, you could get targeted by turrets, turn red etc.  In hi-sec if someone attacked you, depending on which system you were in 0.5-1.0 the "police" would show up to blow up their ship.

 

The EKs are that "safe" area in CF, while the CWs are where the PvP with consequences will normally happen, and their won't be system consequences for ganking or killing in the CWs.

 

A few looks at EvE has shown that over the years somewhere around 60-80% of the EvE playerbase spends their playtime in the "safe" systems of hi-sec.  EvE was built from the ground up for PvP, and even PvE aspects are balanced around PvP; which the same could be said for Crowfall.  Crowfall is being built for the PvPers, but there is no reason why the game can't also allow for PvErs to thrive in other aspects of the game.  In a way EvE did the thing that post trammel was trying to solve in UO; and EvE was able to accomplish it through using independent solar systems to separate "safe" areas from full time PvP areas.  In reality the EKs could be viewed as "safe" solar systems, and each of the CWs could be viewed as 0.0 full time PvP solar systems.

 

Campaign worlds and EKs are a brilliant design concept, because not only does it allow for win conditions, but it allows the developers to separate PvP and PvE while technically keeping everyone in the same game universe.

Edited by Teufel

lUvvzPy.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pvp players are pve players.

 

Yes, this game should support different avenues of play and try to intertwine them. If you have followed this game at all, you should know that they are trying to do that. They are putting plenty of work into balancing the cost and rewards of different actions in the game. All equipment originates from the environment. People have to "pve" for it. 

 

I think this game should have rewarding pve and crafting content but I don't think it should try to cater to a crowd that wants nothing to do with pvp. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With the way that content is being meted out in this game, the PvE vs. PvP divide doesn't really make a whole lot of sense. There won't be dungeons and raids which players and guilds can make their focus, but there will be mob spawns and large creatures which need to be killed in order to clear out Points of Interest and to obtain rare materials. Thralls and Discipline rune spawns will also need to be located and camped for the vital bonuses they provide. Finally, crafters will be necessary to keep any group of hardcore pvp'ers supplied. Whether or not someone considers themselves a pure PvP'er, they'll need to engage in some PvE to build their base and maintain a stockpiled cache of weapons and armor. Anyone who sees their primary role as being logistical, will still be subject to attack when they venture out of their fortress, and won't be exempt from the call to arms when the enemy is at the gates.

 

Calling people PvE'ers and PvP'ers only makes sense when those two gameplay spheres are separate. In Crowfall, they aren't. Your choice between salt and water isn't really relevant when you're presented with a glass of saltwater. It's also important to remember that this game isn't primarily focused on individual achievement and progression, but rather guild achievement and progression. Your guild will enter the campaigns as a unit which is trying to win a contest. It's almost better to think about this game like you would an RTS, where you need to manage your economy, base building, and army simultaneously in order to defeat an opponent who has the same concerns.


Shadowbane - House Avari/Hy'shen
"Gimp elves get good elves killed." - Belina

Avari Discord - https://discord.gg/Bch24PV

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes PvPers do need PvEers and that's always been true for the reasons you listed, "harvesting, hauling, crafting, selling and building as PVE.". They both rely on each other for various things and yes they do help to make the world feel alive and busy.

 

Edit: Or you can just read the post above mine, much better haha.

Edited by Leiloni

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Eve isn't the pinnacle of high-skill pvp, let's not use it as an example of a true pvp ecosystem.

Your definition of high skill varies quite a bit from mine; I've read a lot of your posts and have come to that conclusion a long time ago (that our views differ).  So it doesn't strike me odd at all that you would say that about EvE.  However don't put blinders on yourself and just discount EvE as not having high skill because it is not twitchy.

 

It takes a good pilot to speed tank, maintaining the correct distance away from neuts etc. but still in range of turrets etc.  It takes a lot of knowledge of your enemy to know how to position oneself for a fight.  All of those elements are all skill, and very high skill in my opinion.  You would be more accurate to say that EvE does not have twitch skill associated with it.

 

With the design options that ACE is using, it would not be hard to put in a "safe" campaign world for more historically centered PvErs.  They could make it a campaign world with one or two dungeons in it etc., and the whole time the resources received from this "safe" campaign world would be no more than can be gotten in the EKs.  That's the beauty of their CW and EK system, they can grow or shrink it organically without needing to readdress the whole terrain map like in WoW where you have Azeroth and only Azeroth; again one reason why EvE is able to keep both PvPers and PvErs around, because the systems allow for the separation.

 

I am a PvPer at heart, and I will thoroughly enjoy the CWs like the Dregs and Shadows; but there is no reason the EKs or a PvE campaing can't be built to allow for a PvErs paradise.

Edited by Teufel

lUvvzPy.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This game won't differentiate between PvPers and PvEers.  I would guess that all players would have to pretty much both roles.  A person who is focused on PVE, building, crafting etc, will have to PVP as well to acquire the materials needed to do their respective trades.  And as a Hardcore PVPer good luck finding someone to craft you the gear your going to need to be an effective pvper if you aren't securing POI's and hauling resources back to base, besides who is going to establish the base?


Lf6MJUL.png


Wrathmane - Remnant of Ascendance

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your definition of high skill varies quite a bit from mine; I've read a lot of your posts and have come to that conclusion a long time ago (that our views differ).  So it doesn't strike me odd at all that you would say that about EvE.  However don't put blinders on yourself and just discount EvE as not having high skill because it is not twitchy.

 

I discount eve from having high skill because it doesn't require high skill to actually execute the playing of the game.  Because it does not require high skill it is not a true pvp ecosystem because the point of player vs player is to outplay an opponent, that becomes more and more meaningful the more skill a game requires.  You will see players behave differently towards one another in tic tac toe vs professional level competitive gaming. 

 

It takes a good pilot to speed tank, maintaining the correct distance away from neuts etc. but still in range of turrets etc.  It takes a lot of knowledge of your enemy to know how to position oneself for a fight.  All of those elements are all skill, and very high skill in my opinion.  You would be more accurate to say that EvE does not have twitch skill associated with it.

 

Tactical skill is boring, it is only part of the equation, if the game doesn't require mechanical skill as well then it simply has a lower skill-ceiling. 

 

With the design options that ACE is using, it would not be hard to put in a "safe" campaign world for more historically centered PvErs.  They could make it a campaign world with one or two dungeons in it etc., and the whole time the resources received from this "safe" campaign world would be no more than can be gotten in the EKs.  That's the beauty of their CW and EK system, they can grow or shrink it organically without needing to readdress the whole terrain map like in WoW where you have Azeroth and only Azeroth; again one reason why EvE is able to keep both PvPers and PvErs around, because the systems allow for the separation.

 

I am a PvPer at heart, and I will thoroughly enjoy the CWs like the Dregs and Shadows; but there is no reason the EKs or a PvE campaing can't be built to allow for a PvErs paradise.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This game won't differentiate between PvPers and PvEers.  I would guess that all players would have to pretty much both roles.  A person who is focused on PVE, building, crafting etc, will have to PVP as well to acquire the materials needed to do their respective trades.  And as a Hardcore PVPer good luck finding someone to craft you the gear your going to need to be an effective pvper if you aren't securing POI's and hauling resources back to base, besides who is going to establish the base?

That's a theory which we won't know is true or false until the economy is setup in game.  A PvE crafter could buy goods coming out of the inner bands CWs and have no need to enter in that particular CW themselves.

 

Not everyone that plays this game is going to go into the CWs.  I know it's hard to believe, especially now because so many of us on these boards are primarily PvP focused; but if the game is treated correctly then we should have a lot of EKs with PvErs enjoying their thing, while we PvP in the CWs.

 

Think broad terms outside of just what happens inside of a CW.  Sure there will be crafters that participate in the CWs, but I also think there will be many crafters that stay in their EKs.  On the larger scale, how goods flow between CW and EK will really determine how viable this game is for PvE minded players.


lUvvzPy.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would love to see a CW that had PvE zones established by PvP combat.  Those who controlled the PvE zone wouldn't be targetable by hostiles unless they engaged first, bordering zones would be contested (everyone is flagged for PvP) with objectives that would shift control, making the neighboring zones contested.

 

It would allow those who want to get heavy into gathering/crafting worry less about getting ganked, while still maintaining a huge PvP focus.

 

Just think of the gatherers/crafters running for safety when a zone flips, or having advance scouts (ie assassins) already out there ready for the contested flag to drop!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some very good points above but really I never really considered Crafting a "PvE" activity. I think it is its own category that dips into all aspects of the gameplay. Like said above there is no PvE dungeon or raid content so here the purpose of crafting is to feed/create the economy and outfit the PvP game. Heck you won't even be grinding NPC mobs for mats (and if you try with the limited system as it is you won't get very far doing it that way) you gather mats and resources by capturing and holding POIs through PvP combat in the CWs.

Edited by pang

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Your definition of high skill varies quite a bit from mine; I've read a lot of your posts and have come to that conclusion a long time ago (that our views differ).  So it doesn't strike me odd at all that you would say that about EvE.  However don't put blinders on yourself and just discount EvE as not having high skill because it is not twitchy.

 

I discount eve from having high skill because it doesn't require high skill to actually execute the playing of the game.  Because it does not require high skill it is not a true pvp ecosystem because the point of player vs player is to outplay an opponent, that becomes more and more meaningful the more skill a game requires.  You will see players behave differently towards one another in tic tac toe vs professional level competitive gaming. 

 

It takes a good pilot to speed tank, maintaining the correct distance away from neuts etc. but still in range of turrets etc.  It takes a lot of knowledge of your enemy to know how to position oneself for a fight.  All of those elements are all skill, and very high skill in my opinion.  You would be more accurate to say that EvE does not have twitch skill associated with it.

 

Tactical skill is boring, it is only part of the equation, if the game doesn't require mechanical skill as well then it simply has a lower skill-ceiling. 

 

With the design options that ACE is using, it would not be hard to put in a "safe" campaign world for more historically centered PvErs.  They could make it a campaign world with one or two dungeons in it etc., and the whole time the resources received from this "safe" campaign world would be no more than can be gotten in the EKs.  That's the beauty of their CW and EK system, they can grow or shrink it organically without needing to readdress the whole terrain map like in WoW where you have Azeroth and only Azeroth; again one reason why EvE is able to keep both PvPers and PvErs around, because the systems allow for the separation.

 

I am a PvPer at heart, and I will thoroughly enjoy the CWs like the Dregs and Shadows; but there is no reason the EKs or a PvE campaing can't be built to allow for a PvErs paradise.

 

I count the mind as the most skillful thing we have, and it seems you tend to discount the thought that goes into builds, and rather rely on motor-skills/dexterity as the only thing that could be required as skillful.  Chess is a great example of a non-dexterous game that requires a lot of skill.

 

if the game doesn't require mechanical skill as well then it simply has a lower skill-ceiling

This is just plain out false, and only your opinion based on the types of games you like to play.

 

The answer to skill can only be answered in reference to the question.  If I asked how skillful a football player was, we have a mechanical way to observe and interpret data.  But if I asked the question how skillful is this person at life, then mechanical skills will not be sufficient to answer the question.

 

In this case EvE does have a high ceiling for skill, it's just not one that you enjoy playing as observed with the below quote.

Tactical skill is boring

 

In the end both of us will have to play CF for what it is, and it may not be as "skillful" as you or others or I think it should be, based on whatever we find fun in.

 

However I think it is pretty safe to say, that PvE centered players bring a lot to any game they join; whether that is funding, more players for a more alive feel, or more fodder for PvPers.

Edited by Teufel

lUvvzPy.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some very good points above but really I never really considered Crafting a "PvE" activity. I think it is its own category that dips into all aspects of the gameplay. Like said above there is no PvE dungeon or raid content so here the purpose of crafting is to feed/create the economy and outfit the PvP game. Heck you won't even be grinding NPC mobs for mats (and if you try with the limited system as it is you won't get very far doing it that way) you gather mats and resources by capturing and holding POIs through PvP combat in the CWs.

 

You may be grinding NPCs, or tracking down rare NPCs, for specific additives (Drake Claw, Zombie Tooth, Hellcat  Fang, etc...) in order to secure certain crafting outcomes. Hunting down rare NPC spawns will require exploration, titular PvE, and the possibility of PvP with player competition over the spawn. It all sounds a lot like PvE in Shadowbane. You might farm a mob spawn, or camp a rare spawn, only to have to fight off other players competing for the same spot. There were some great skirmishes in early Shadowbane over important discipline rune droppers like the "Commander" rune. It's good that we have the campaign reset mechanic in place to keep stockpiles of resources from getting too high. As time went on, rare spawns became less and less contested because players had finished gearing and skilling multiple characters.

 

Edit: Imagine the PvE you do in the hunger dome, but with respawning mobs and no hunger mechanic. You'll be killing mobs, looting, and all the while watching your back for other players who might jump you. Knowing where the named or elite mobs are in an area won't hurt either.

Edited by soulein

Shadowbane - House Avari/Hy'shen
"Gimp elves get good elves killed." - Belina

Avari Discord - https://discord.gg/Bch24PV

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Where there's mobs -- there's PvE'ers. Every PvPer knows they need PvE'ers. There's even different levels of PvP vs PvE. Some PvPers will go out to a farming spot to farm while waiting for PvP. It just depends.

 

Eve isn't the pinnacle of high-skill pvp, let's not use it as an example of a true pvp ecosystem.

 

Well, if you don't sit at the table....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Where there's mobs -- there's PvE'ers. Every PvPer knows they need PvE'ers. There's even different levels of PvP vs PvE. Some PvPers will go out to a farming spot to farm while waiting for PvP. It just depends.

 

 

Well, if you don't sit at the table....

 

I think it is plainly obvious who sits at the table of champions and who does not.

I count the mind as the most skillful thing we have, and it seems you tend to discount the thought that goes into builds, and rather rely on motor-skills/dexterity as the only thing that could be required as skillful.  Chess is a great example of a non-dexterous game that requires a lot of skill.

 

Did you know that the mind being sharp paired with good motor skills actually makes for great motor skills?  Someone that has to react in .25 seconds vs someone that can anticipate they have to react in .25 seconds, the one that knows it is coming has a much better chance of reacting properly.  Chess is not a video game... and chess has its flaws, we are not playing chess, if we wanted to play chess we would play chess...  Some people simply don't understand that thinking alone, or motor skills alone take very limited skill, you must combine both to really be skillful. 

 

This is just plain out false, and only your opinion based on the types of games you like to play.

 

It's my opinion based on extensive knowledge and experience, I simply want to be challenged with the highest skill-ceiling possible, it isn't about gravitating towards one or the other, especially at my age, where I would actually benefit from mechanical skill not being too difficult. 

 

The answer to skill can only be answered in reference to the question.  If I asked how skillful a football player was, we have a mechanical way to observe and interpret data.  But if I asked the question how skillful is this person at life, then mechanical skills will not be sufficient to answer the question.

 

And in this context we are talking about what is skillful in video games.  Look at top level starcraft, that's pretty skillful, it requires tactical and mechanical skill.  Look at some turn-based strategy game, not very skillful. 

 

In this case EvE does have a high ceiling for skill, it's just not one that you enjoy playing as observed with the below quote.

 

Eve didn't have a high skill-ceiling, this might be a case of you thinking it does because of your preference. 

 

In the end both of us will have to play CF for what it is, and it may not be as "skillful" as you or others or I think it should be, based on whatever we find fun in.

 

If it doesn't take at least as much skill as WoW (a game that came out over 10 years ago) it is not going to attract a good pvp crowd.  It is not Eve, it is action combat, which means that there won't be much overlap, and it must create a high skill-ceiling within what it is (action combat pvp mmo) or it will dry out because people will get bored really quickly.  (Just like the best pvpers and professional gamers tend to play games that require both mechanical and tactical skill).

 

However I think it is pretty safe to say, that PvE centered players bring a lot to any game they join; whether that is funding, more players for a more alive feel, or more fodder for PvPers.

 

There is no emphasis on pve in crowfall, everything in the campaigns is either pvp or indirect pvp. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...