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siberain2

Anyone find the combo system Controling/Boring? Miss Freedom?

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I think people need to get their heads away from the poorly made socksty tab target games they played in the past. This game is not tab target and many gamers out there don't want that. Crowfall especially stands out because of it's action combat system. People are already flocking to Camelot Unchained who want a new PvP MMO with tab target and a massive skill system, so Crowfall needs to stand out.

 

If you want ideas, look at other quality action combat systems out there right now for what they've done. And I suggest playing some of them extensively because just watching videos and reading doesn't give you a clue as to the ins and outs of those games.

 

Also on the TERA comment, I've mentioned how their combo system works before and it's not really a combo system like you're thinking. Here's a link to that comment, but it's not really what you're thinking of so you may want to find a different example game.

http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/12139-combo-mechanics-need-to-change/#entry277037

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Regarding combos, they are supposed to be predictable. That's the point. You see the ability that comes before the stun and know that the stun is probably coming next, giving you time to do something about it. If the stun wasn't behind another ability, then it would just be a matter of who can stun whom first. With animation locks, there needs to be a window of opportunity to read and react to what the other player is doing. The combo system provides that.

 

You can do the same thing with non-combo abilities. I do it all the time when a champion comes leaping in on me when I'm on druid (blink away). I guess the question is how much of a "warning" do they think people need? I can understand telegraphing certain attacks, but it's taken to a ridiculous standard in CF and I don't find mashing the same button two or three times in a row to get that certain ability that I REALLY want to use all that great.

 

Also whats the point of having buffs hidden behind other buffs (I'm looking at you nature's grace -> contain essence). This one bugs the hell out of me and feels completely non-sensical.

Edited by helix

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It sounds like Thomas Blair is settling on a very vanilla combat system.

 

Here's a theory, imagine a battlefield where say its 10vs10 with pretty much the same class make up. So basically everyone's going to be casting the same spell to build up to the same combo and whoever button mashes or has low latency will get the spell out first.

 

Shouldn't it be more like, 10vs10 and trying to figure out who's going to open with what spell and counter with another spell to offset their strategy so your strategy works?

 

I'm just saying Thomas Blair's combat system is easily predictable which unfortunately makes for boring game play.

I remember dueling on Templars in Shadowbane back in the day; cast wings to quickly and you didn't survive, cast it too late in the fight and it didn't boost you enough to survive the fight.  Or on the same character using the buff strip on another player; was it more beneficial to take away one of their buffs, or for you to keep laying on damage, and it really was situational.  But it wasn't just A then B and repeat forever; depending on procs and certain other variables of randomness you had to know when to cast certain skills not just in what sequence.

 

I would love some of the "surprise" of when not what is coming next.  Giving us all 3 branching skills but only allowing us to use 1 means that there is a level of unknown in the the fight.  That's one of the things I loved about SB, was how there were so many combinations that could be made.

 

The current combo system doesn't give that feeling of surprise like it could.  I am hoping the underlined part of your quote is what we see.


lUvvzPy.png

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more detail on this point which i didn't specify how important it is.

 

you'll never fight an enemy that is the exact same class as you. (e.g. knight vs knight wet noodle fight)

 

you realm will have unique versions of each 'class type'

 

e.g. heavy fighter, healer etc with their own pros and cons and gameplay power options and your realm will have unique combinations, synergies and counters.

 

on top of this: choice of RACE for your classes as well...

 

see an example of their non mirrored and frankly awesome class design here (warning GIANT IMAGE..):

 

http://i.imgur.com/JxpQ3ip.jpg

 

to see realm race/class overviews see here

 

http://camelotunchained.com/v3/realms/

One of the things I am missing the most about Shadowbane right now, is how races actually mattered, and different races brought different stylized play to the different archetypes/professions.

 

Secretly I am hoping that ACE will go that extra step and allow for races to be chosen as the first selection, not tie archetypes to races.  I know it is very unlikely (like 1 in a billion chance), but it would be another nice feature - Deer Druid anyone?  Guinea Pig Knight?  Oh the combinations could be so fun.


lUvvzPy.png

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I've never liked it. It feels artificially complex to me. I love complexity when its organic and rational. I don't find the fingerdancing fun or rational. I find it arbitrary.

 

It's not a huge deal as I can remap my mouse to cast the (les painfully) slow precursor skills required to get to the ability I want with 1 click anyway by inserting appropriate delays and keystrokes to a macro.

 

But no, I don't feel it adds anything valuable to the game. I'd rather have separate skills I could bind to any key or mouse button I like. I think the game would be better that way.

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Also whats the point of having buffs hidden behind other buffs (I'm looking at you nature's grace -> contain essence). This one bugs the hell out of me and feels completely non-sensical.

Well I use to look for the combo because it punished the druid hard if they cast one or two of the buffs and then got interrupted before contain essence. They dropped the essence cost so now I'm just looking for druids trying to cast 2-2-2.

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I remember dueling on Templars in Shadowbane back in the day; cast wings to quickly and you didn't survive, cast it too late in the fight and it didn't boost you enough to survive the fight.  Or on the same character using the buff strip on another player; was it more beneficial to take away one of their buffs, or for you to keep laying on damage, and it really was situational.  But it wasn't just A then B and repeat forever; depending on procs and certain other variables of randomness you had to know when to cast certain skills not just in what sequence.

 

I would love some of the "surprise" of when not what is coming next.  Giving us all 3 branching skills but only allowing us to use 1 means that there is a level of unknown in the the fight.  That's one of the things I loved about SB, was how there were so many combinations that could be made.

 

The current combo system doesn't give that feeling of surprise like it could.  I am hoping the underlined part of your quote is what we see.

Thats EXACTLY what I loved in SB.

 

You can have 10 of the same class, but those 10, each played completely different then the other. It was amazing.

 

The most satisfying reward is when the guy with the same class messages you asking you for your build/spell rotation.

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I've never liked it. It feels artificially complex to me. I love complexity when its organic and rational. I don't find the fingerdancing fun or rational. I find it arbitrary.

 

It's not a huge deal as I can remap my mouse to cast the (les painfully) slow precursor skills required to get to the ability I want with 1 click anyway by inserting appropriate delays and keystrokes to a macro.

 

But no, I don't feel it adds anything valuable to the game. I'd rather have separate skills I could bind to any key or mouse button I like. I think the game would be better that way.

I second you sir! We need Freedom!!Where's Mel Gibson when you need him..

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What we've seen so far is only a small part of what is planned, and what we have so far isn't final. Promotions and disciplines still need to be added, which will increase the number of abilities, and there will be another system by which powers can be modified/improved. Then there is armor, with enchants that will allow for further customization. Advantages and disadvantages. What we're seeing now is only the tip of the iceberg.

 

Regarding combos, they are supposed to be predictable. That's the point. You see the ability that comes before the stun and know that the stun is probably coming next, giving you time to do something about it. If the stun wasn't behind another ability, then it would just be a matter of who can stun whom first. With animation locks, there needs to be a window of opportunity to read and react to what the other player is doing. The combo system provides that.

A lot of people need to understand this.

 

There's a lot of complaints over an unfinished system. IF they're taking the EVE route that they planned to go with (which as of now seems like they're 100% going to go with it) then there WILL be a huge variety of skill paths and builds to take. I'm fairly sure the skills that they have now will only be base starting point that can be expanded upon and altered based off of how the player wants to play.

 

If you think that most archetypes are going to be taking the same skill-build paths and maxing out the exact same skills (which will be plentiful) that's not how it's going to play out. There will probably be a base meta that develops in the game (just some skill path that most casual players take that's all around pretty decent) and then there will be the people who decided to be smart and specialize in the things that nobody else did because they enjoy playing a specific way."allowing you to play how you liked". It'll end up being that there's a whole lot more value in those specialized players as they're a million times more effective at doing specific things because that's just their preferred play-style.

 

In EVE you could spec into a really obscure build path with certain ships and be an absolute monster in PvP because meta-sheep can't handle fighting a ship that has weird, heavy specialization into 1v1ing. Same thing applies to ships that could spec into things that would affect group oriented combat, they were able to be so successful because the game allowed them to skill things that contoured to their play-style

 

As far as the combo system, actually combat as a whole, it honestly is clunky right now and that's to be expected. But they're working on it and are always improving upon it so that's what matters. It's skill based combat which needs some type of combos to enable more counter play between players. 

 

"I know player x has started up their combo and that it will stun me on the third strike so I need to make it a point to either shut down the combo or disengage quickly to avoid the stun and extra damage that they'll get on me" this type of system opens up the possibilities of making not only calculated predictions, but can also be used for mind games to fake people out and make them blow their abilities on something that wasn't coming to begin with which puts them in unfavorable positions (out of position, no escape movement options available, lack of mitigation moves, etc.)

 

I know a lot of you wish that the game had similar mechanics to other titles that you've played because that's what you're use to, but really think about how the system will affect combat in the future once it's finally completed. It won't be painful and dull as you're thinking it is now.

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I hope you're right re unfinished systems.

 

But I don't really see what that's got to do with the combos. 

 

I also really tire of everyone tossing around phrases such as "skill based combat system" as if nobody has ever tried to make a game that required skill before. Or that the term "skill based combat" has any clearly defined meaning in the gaming industry at all for that matter. Lots of disperate mechanics require "skill" of varying types. Keeping your recticle over a hitbox better than the other guy while you hit the space bar and strafe around is one type of skill, but it's fairly low level stuff In my view.

  • Lead a group of 50 in an outnumbered battle and win. That's skill.
  • Use your own reactionary abilities in more efficient succession than the other guy in a tab target game and win a solo fight. That's skill.
  • Even playing card games require skill, digital or otherwise.
  • Chess requires skill.
  • Scout the enemy effectively and make it out alive. That's skill.
  • Create a new build in a game with a massive variety of skills and the freedom to use them. That's skill.

Say what you mean. If you mean FPS shooter "skill," say that.

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I hope you're right re unfinished systems.

 

But I don't really see what that's got to do with the combos. 

 

I also really tire of everyone tossing around phrases such as "skill based combat system" as if nobody has ever tried to make a game that required skill before. Or that the term "skill based combat" has any clearly defined meaning in the gaming industry at all for that matter. Lots of disperate mechanics require "skill" of varying types. Keeping your recticle over a hitbox better than the other guy while you hit the space bar and strafe around is one type of skill, but it's fairly low level stuff In my view.

  • Lead a group of 50 in an outnumbered battle and win. That's skill. Strategic skill?
  • Use your own reactionary abilities in more efficient succession than the other guy in a tab target game and win a solo fight. That's skill.
  • Even playing card games require skill, digital or otherwise. Poker? Hearthstone? Magic?
  • Chess requires skill. Strategy, observational skills, planning, pruning?
  • Scout the enemy effectively and make it out alive. That's skill.
  • Create a new build in a game with a massive variety of skills and the freedom to use them. That's skill. Theory-crafting?

Say what you mean. If you mean FPS shooter "skill," say that.

The combo system is a part of the combat system????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

 

It's crap compared to the potential that it has but as stated they're not done with the system and they're still working on making it better. (even though it's been ages) Combo chains will more than likely end up being affected by the skills and training that you choose and what we have now is just a strong base for them to use in future iterations. 

 

As to the comment on "skill based combat" I apologize for not making

 

It's skill based combat which needs some type of combos to enable more counter play between players. 

 

"I know player x has started up their combo and that it will stun me on the third strike so I need to make it a point to either shut down the combo or disengage quickly to avoid the stun and extra damage that they'll get on me" this type of system opens up the possibilities of making not only calculated predictions, but can also be used for mind games to fake people out and make them blow their abilities on something that wasn't coming to begin with which puts them in unfavorable positions (out of position, no escape movement options available, lack of mitigation moves, etc.)

clear enough for you but I'll try to simplify it a little bit.

 

The reason the term "skill based combat system" was used would be because there are too many elements that are being added/will be added in to give it a definite, required skill set that will be needed in combat. Also because we don't know what the final product of the combat will be.

 

Unsure how you took "FPS skill" out of what I said but I'll try to explain some more of what I was trying to get across.

 

  • Required knowledge of what you can do, what your opponent can do, and the different scenarios that you may end up in.
  • Knowledge of the cool downs and costs of your opponents skills and etc.
  • Having the capability of performing "mind games" on opponents in order to make them waste certain things for no reason or to put them in a position that you can take advantage of and abuse.
  • Having the capability to read what your opponent might do/might not do if you were to do a specific action.
  • Having better mechanical skills, reactionary skills, assets and game knowledge to your advantage.
  • Being able to use personal combat related skills to gain an advantage over your opponent. (too broad to list)

there would be plenty more elements and etc that would apply to different scenarios but for this situation I kept it short and 1v1 related.

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I understand what you're saying and my comment wasn't necessarily directed at you. Lots of folks here push personal agendas using phrases similar to that ("skill based combat") when what they really mean is jumpy, twitchy FPS gameplay. The signal to noise ratio is quite low on that topic around here.

 

I continue to seriously doubt that truly large scale combat with character collision and physics could even possibly incorporate that style of combat. It would be wholly ineffective. I'd love to see it so the poorly made socksshow that would could be put on full display.

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I understand the devs want to avoid having hot bar bloat caused by every class having 50 skills, but I don't think the current combo system is the right way to go. I don't want to go into too much detail so I'll just state a few things which I think are worth considering. Keep in mind I'm not a playtester.

 

1. The combo system is too rigid. You are limited to casting a handful of static skill chains. Sure there is a slight variation in some of them, but you are basically going to do the same sequence of skills in the same order every time. To clarify, I think it would be much better if you could, for example, cast skills in a combo sequence in a different order or omit skills from a combo sequence. 

 

2. It's too expensive to feint since the mana cost for the entire combo is frontloaded in the first skill (was this ever changed?).

 

3. I'm not sure how to phrase this one, it feels 'forced'.  I think this is due to important effects like CC being tied to the ends of combo chains. Combos should reward you for using them, not punish you if you don't use them.

 

Also, I've noticed quite a few people who say things like "combos are supposed to be predictable so that you have time to react to things like CC". Animation locks already give you time to react, if you allow people to have extremely large amounts of time to react to things then you end up with a turn-based combat system, not an action combat system. If you're worried about getting hit with a CC ability while you're stuck in your own attack animation then I've got three things to say. First, I expect animation canceling to be implemented eventually (if not, RIP Crowfall), meaning, if you have not gone too far into an attack animation (the point at which damage is calculated) you could cancel the attack into a dodge or a block. Secondly, if you were so far into an attack animation that you could not cancel it with a dodge, then you probably deserved to get hit. Reading your opponent is part of any skill-based PvP game. Third, if you get hit with a root, a stun, or some other CC, it's not necessarily a death sentence; whether or not that's the case depends on many other factors.

Edited by Aguise

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The combo system is a part of the combat system????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

 

It's crap compared to the potential that it has but as stated they're not done with the system and they're still working on making it better. (even though it's been ages) Combo chains will more than likely end up being affected by the skills and training that you choose and what we have now is just a strong base for them to use in future iterations. 

 

As to the comment on "skill based combat" I apologize for not making

 

clear enough for you but I'll try to simplify it a little bit.

 

The reason the term "skill based combat system" was used would be because there are too many elements that are being added/will be added in to give it a definite, required skill set that will be needed in combat. Also because we don't know what the final product of the combat will be.

 

Unsure how you took "FPS skill" out of what I said but I'll try to explain some more of what I was trying to get across.

 

  • Required knowledge of what you can do, what your opponent can do, and the different scenarios that you may end up in.
  • Knowledge of the cool downs and costs of your opponents skills and etc.
  • Having the capability of performing "mind games" on opponents in order to make them waste certain things for no reason or to put them in a position that you can take advantage of and abuse.
  • Having the capability to read what your opponent might do/might not do if you were to do a specific action.
  • Having better mechanical skills, reactionary skills, assets and game knowledge to your advantage.
  • Being able to use personal combat related skills to gain an advantage over your opponent. (too broad to list)

there would be plenty more elements and etc that would apply to different scenarios but for this situation I kept it short and 1v1 related.

I doubt they'll make changes to the system. It almost feels like they used the name "shadowbane" as a means of promoting what they're creating now.

 

It was a good marketing strategy but as they said from launch. this game will never be shadowbane 2.0.  I'm shelving this as a bad investment & moving on.

 

Sad though. Just imagine how much fun a game would have been if you simply take shadowbane (rich pvp & castle buidling with all the player freedom) & world of warcraft (The content rich PVE aspect with a simple combat system that works and is fun) and make them one. Sometimes we just can't have simple !

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I doubt they'll make changes to the system. It almost feels like they used the name "shadowbane" as a means of promoting what they're creating now.

 

It was a good marketing strategy but as they said from launch. this game will never be shadowbane 2.0.  I'm shelving this as a bad investment & moving on.

 

Sad though. Just imagine how much fun a game would have been if you simply take shadowbane (rich pvp & castle buidling with all the player freedom) & world of warcraft (The content rich PVE aspect with a simple combat system that works and is fun) and make them one. Sometimes we just can't have simple !

 

You do realize that Shadowbane was a game nobody played and WoW's combat system is one that is slowly dying out?

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Crowfall especially stands out because of it's action combat system.

 

If you want ideas, look at other quality action combat systems out there right now for what they've done. And I suggest playing some of them extensively...

 

"Action combat" isn't one design, but Crowfall really doesn't stand out in comparison to BDO, Tera, GW2, Wildstar, Smite, insert whatever else is out there.

 

There is aiming and some movement, but overall combat is very static/stationary without much use of mobility, terrain, or reactionary tactics. Activate an ability to activate another with some cool downs.

 

Most of these "action" games have cut down on the number of abilities and customization but make up for it with actual "action" focused game play.

 

Crowfall seems to be sort of in the middle with lackluster "action" and less options for the players to work with at a time.

 

You do realize that Shadowbane was a game nobody played and WoW's combat system is one that is slowly dying out?

 

Not to burst your bubble but I have doubts that CF would of made it past KS without Shadowbane fans or at least fans of older games. If CF manages to pull in significantly larger numbers than some of those older games I'll be surprised.

 

I'm not a fan of either games combat design in regards to Crowfall, but millions still enjoy WoW and CF has a lot in common with Shadowbane.

 

Several here have said they'd like to see combat more in lines with some of those other "action" games and so far not much has shown they are going in that direction. Lack of choices within combat along with mediocre action aren't going to be huge draws.

 

As far as "combos" go, Crowfall does not have a combo system in my terms. Abilities have prereqs and that's about it. Not much comboing between abilities in comparison to BDO.

Edited by APE

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You do realize that Shadowbane was a game nobody played and WoW's combat system is one that is slowly dying out?

I love when people start saying wow is slowing dying out.. wait lets see.. 4million paying subscribers and wait the game is how OLD?? and still releasing content and they just released a movie. Now I'll be clear, I dont play wow because of the lack of pvp but they are and still are the most successful mmo ever created.

 

They might be slowly dying but they're still chugging along and still maintain a high level of paying subscribers. As for shadowbane, it was a great concept, before its time using a poorly made engine that couldnt handle 200+ people with DIALUP.

Edited by siberain2

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