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Ryse

Reliance of Crafters on Each Other

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So I have a topic I'm very curious to see feedback on:

 

"How do you feel we as crafters can grow reliance on each other without forcing us to buy materials the others have made?"

 

---

 

My take:

 

I personally loathe when I find a recipe in a game which forces me to use 9 'Leather Straps' when I'm working metal. Either forcing me to grab and level another profession, or buy from the AH.

 

Fortunately for me, there IS no Auction house. And I'm free to support or harvest from another profession. Also, because there's no recipe learning system, I'm compelled to alter what materials I am using in order to diversify my craft. That said, I still haven't answered my own question.

 

I really like the idea of a given craft being able to augment the finished goods of other crafts. Yes, there will be likelihood that if I craft a pair of Iron Sabatons (which I stumbled across while playing with the system) with some Leather in the mix, or a Rune, that I might find my way to something new. 

 

But I think taking it a step further would be very cool. What if I could wander into a shop in a neighboring Eternal Kingdom, and buy a Pair of Leather Gloves from a player merchant, then take them back to the forge and add a category of component to it which made it into 'Studded' and altered the end product? The same could apply to the Drops I get when in a campaign.

 

Why should any crafter settle for the gear that drops? Why would I not have a tier of abilities and items which allow me to reforge gear? Even increase its tier as I do it.

 

Now you add a 'Quality' modifier to the gear as a result of its crafting/creation and make that a factor in being able to 'Augment' it.

 

Now we can craft anything 'alone' if we're willing to take advantage of the player driven economy. 

Edited by Ryse

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Seems an interesting system! "Field-Crafters"/ crafting on the run would get an all new meaning :D

 

As I'm always establishing myself in a community or guild, mostly I don't have to worry about getting stuff from other crafting professions. And CF will be group based, so a reliance is pretty much part of the system, I guess.

Nevertheless I'd like it if both options would be integrated, to give us even more freedom in choice :3

Edited by Akineko

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I like the idea.  It is really unique I can't think of any other game that does this.  It would be interesting to see.  Probably won't be at launch, but could defiantly be something after if the devs like the idea.

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Hi Ryse

 

I realy like your ideas on crafting and I would like to contribute a few of my own.

  1. All items consists of a frame (to select the general skin) and individual parts (to tweek skins & stats). Some part should be needed to get a functional item (no sword without a blade) and a few should be optional to tweek stats or improve quality.
  2. All parts are changeable. So if you find an item you can modify it however you like. The frame should be damage through part-changing and the part should be damage through ingame use of the item.
  3. To 'repair' you need to replace parts. This would damage the frame and eventually make it unusable. At that point you have to create a new frame.

This would eliminate the need for an dedicated repair-system (maybe part recycling). You could split crafting task between multiple crafters to get better result, as each crafter could specialize on specific parts.

 

As I'm not the greatest english writer, I will stop and wait for your opinion.

 

Regards Eldo

Edited by Eldo

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Hi Ryse

 

I realy like your ideas on crafting and I would like to contribute a few of my own.

  1. All items consists of a frame (to select the general skin) and individual parts (to tweek skins & stats). Some part should be needed to get a functional item (no sword without a blade) and a few should be optional to tweek stats or improve quality.
  2. All parts are changeable. So if you find an item you can modify it however you like. The frame should be damage through part-changing and the part should be damage through ingame use of the item.
  3. To 'repair' you need to replace parts. This would damage the frame and eventually make it unusable. At that point you have to create a new frame.

This would eliminate the need for an dedicated repair-system (maybe part recycling). You could split crafting task between multiple crafters to get better result, as each crafter could specialize on specific parts.

 

As I'm not the greatest english writer, I will stop and wait for your opinion.

 

Regards Eldo

Could be an interesting idea, but a little ambitious.  If you make crafting that specific no single crafter would ever make enough money to support their craft.  Its not like in medieval times blacksmiths every made on a blad or only a hilt they did it all. 

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There's a simplified version of Eldo's idea. (Which, for the record is drool worthy). It's something that's been tried a few times: Skins/Consumable patterns. Since there are no recipes, there should be a system by which you can change the overall design of the elements you're producing. 

 

Creating modular items, where pieces have different appearances is technically very hard, and would tax the rendering of the engine.

 

I propose instead that there be 'pattern' drops. This item would be a simple consumable attached in the creation process. I like the idea of farming undead in the Dregs, or killing a specific creature in the Shadow and getting a generic 'Dwarven Thrall Pattern' item which I can add as a consumable. Throw the rarity system on it, so that I'd have to have a Purple Pattern attachement on a Purple Level craft and voila, now I've got a system by which I'm crafting the Same ★★★★★ Rank Purple Leather Gloves, but I'm attaching a rare pattern which is altering the output of the item to a Set Item.

 

Assuming that there would be set bonus' and rare skills, this is also an AMAZING system to include those skills on. Imagine that a Dregs campaign has a World Boss, "Shard of Lyessa" which is being battled by the Guilds. When it's felled, a Purple Pattern "Lyessa Spawn Pattern" drops. The pattern itself reads:

 

Set Bonus: (1) Piece: Plus 200 HP

Set Bonus: (2) Piece: Plus 300 HP

Set Bonus: (3) Piece: Plus 400 HP

Set Bonus: (4) Piece: Plus 500 HP

Set Bonus: (5) Piece: Random Proc Skill: Lyessa's Fire: Deals 600 Fire Damage to Target on melee Attack

 

But because these Patterns are tradable, you find a system where they themselves become an item of great pursuit, but allow the end creation of the items to be as a result of a skilled crafter. 

 

The reverse is also true. A skilled crafter can 'Disasemble' a piece of gear for materials which has the following chance to produce a recipe which matches the gear's origin:

 

GREEN: 50% Chance of Pattern

BLUE: 30% Chance of Pattern

ORANGE: 10% Chance of Pattern

PURPLE: 5% Chance of Pattern
GOLD: 2% Chance of Pattern

 

Now we've got a system which allows us to Base our Crafting habits off the not only the crafters of others, but custom glamor items (Pre Craft, and Post Craft), player craft sets, increase the usability and fits into the Reforge system. But still matches the overall archetype of 'Simple, Exploratory' crafting which was the original intent.

 

We're all still using the same basic items. We're unlocking and improving our database of things we can craft, but between the Reforging (Which levels up items, changes their base stats, and can change their Item TYPE) and the Pattern system (Set Creation, Bonus' Assignment, and Physical Appearance Changing), we now have a system where our PvE and PvP players are getting involved in the crafting system passively. Which means a higher level of trade, and influx of non-crafters learning more about the crafting systems. 
 


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The OP is somewhat hinting at DAoC's crafting system. For example, if you wanted to make plate gauntlets, you first had to have cloth gloves made. Or if you wanted chainmail gloves, you needed leather gloves made first as a component. Likewise, building other things like Siege weapons, also required a combined effort of different crafters, woodworkers, leather workers, blacksmiths, ect. to make various components needed for the Siegecrafter to make the weapon.

 

I loved it! It forces interaction between crafters, all the while increasing the value of even the most mundane items like nails. There's theoretically nothing that you'll "out level" or find unneeded. There's always a market for everything.

 

With that said, there are obviously some exceptions. Necromancy; working with vessal parts. So unless there is a byproduct of some other craft needed as a component, like say stone dust from Runecrafting, then it's a pretty stand alone system.

 

All-in-all, I hope ACE takes this into consideration, or perhaps they already have. Guess we might find out on Monday. :D

 

Thanks for the good read Ryse, you have some well written posts. 


 

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Thanks Nocturnal, it's not about WHAT you're saying, it's about HOW you're saying it. I like my words to be meaningful. ♥


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Ryse, your posts are always pretty to look at with all the formatting. I wish I had that amount of patience for all of my posts. That being said I'm going to rain on your parade a little. As of right now, the system of crafting they are intending to use is to have a very generic set of items that are only modified on initial creation. An example would be an iron helmet. If you craft the iron helmet with gold and silver, it will give you different stats than if you use iron and leather. While it's still possible they may have consumables (such as leather patches from WoW) it won't effect the base item. There's a reason for this system though and it's to mitigate item creep AKA for every unique item type and stat combination they have to allocate server space to store that info. This is the reason they are avoiding the 1000 point stat quality on minerals like they had in SWG.

 

The good news is there's still room to push for cross disciplinary bonuses by being trained in more than one profession (like getting a bonus to metal armor durability by using leather straps as a master leatherworker etc) but, that's more of the solo benefit you were referring to at the beginning of your post.

 

Also, keep in mind that the complexity of the crafting system is mitigated by durability loss. The more steps it takes to craft an item of quality the less profitable it becomes. Time is money!

 

On average I think Crowfall crafting is intended to be functional and mass produced. While it's not as fancy as other systems, I think the exclusivity provided by the automatic training and the uniqueness of the harvesting mechanics will provide fun through generating experiences. Instead of walking through a zone and whacking metal nodes and putting items on an AH, you have to coordinate with a guild and fight for your life. If you've ever played UO, you know how much fun can be had crafting heater shields!

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Okay I think this will be a longer post, so lets start with a TL/DR-Version^^

 

Please don't confuse crafting with harvesting. Both are important processes and can be fun, but a dedicated crafter should have the most fun with crafting item and not with harvesting materials. And if you have to 'fight for your life' then that neither crafting nor harvesting but combat. And combat is the one thing I don'T want for a pure crafting playstyle. 

 

Now the longer version^^ and my personal vision on what crafting should be. Starting with a few definition to prevent any error:

 

Harvesting: Gathering of raw materials

Refining: Processing of raw material to obtain better quality material

Crafting: Transformation of material (raw/refined) into items

Augmenting: Improvment of a finished item through differnt methods (runes, enchanting, change parts, etc.)

 

As a dedicated crafter my main focus is the crafting-process and a bit augmentation, not harvesting or refining. Both are important and can be fun, but for a crafter the main focus should be the crafting-process. No kingdom would expose the most famed master blacksmith to the danger of dying at the frontline, because he has to collect the ironore himself. That not the job for an crafter. Okay enough of this, what makes crafting interessting and which system support it.

 

There are 2 main part to your everyday crafting-life: mass production (for siege battles and so on) and higher quality crafting of single items (for arena-like tournaments to find the best fighter). And for me the second part should be as fun and complex as possible. So I will build my concept from this side. I mean a master-crafter will be famous for his unique items and not for the 1000 default swords he crafted last week.

 

To create such an awesome and unique item the process should be as complex as possible. I want many options to tweek and customize my item. Also more time (effort) should result in better quality and only a minimal amount of rng.

 

The Frame - The most basic part for my item. This hold the basic information for my item such as polygon-model, basic texture, required parts, optional part, augmentation slots and so on, maybe even durability. This is basically the recipe of my item.

 

The Parts - These provide stats to the frame. A frame with all required parts represents a useable item to equip. For a sword the absolut minimum would be a blade and handle, hilt, sheat, etc would be optional. To provide a bit of useablity, all parts are just generic. So a part can change the texture (iron blade vs copper blade) but not the polygon model. Maybe it is possible to hide specific parts (like a hilt is optional, so hide it if there is no hilt). And you could use the same blade for a dagger and a sword. This would keep the part-recipe count low^^

 

Required and optional part are essential the same. Both change the stats and the quality of the part defines the quality of the entire items.

 

Augmentation - Should be things like thralls and enchantment, rune. Whatever is more on the magical side. Keep it simple *hrhr*

 

This is mostly the same idea that I've presented in the last post. Together with different materials (pure metal, alloys, different kinds of quality, etc) would create a realy complex system. It could take several hours to make this perfect awesome item, which is fine for a dedicated crafter. Okay great for awesome single items but really annoyning for mass production.

 

I would suggest to not simplify the system. Instead I would create a meta-system like template-recipes. These recipe would be a plan to do something, like craft an entire item or just do some work. Similar to an scripting-language^^ or Batch-Files. Depending on what you like to do you have to suply the material and time to craft the item. But after the creation of the template you could simply mass produces it. With a few default template you could create a system that easy to use at the surface, but if you want you can dive into this system to create the cool and awesome stuff that makes you famous. I would like to reach a point where you could theorycraft, just like some people do it for the maximun damage for specific class. Did you ever create an excel-sheet to maximize your crafting result? (Okay I did, one time in Wildstar^^) Most of the time you only collect material and click the button. Thats boring.

 

Okay now for the end^^ I think there was a comment on the problems for a solo-crafter. This is totaly fine for me. I mean a solo-fighter also has little to no chance at winning against an team. 1v2 maybe, 1v3 if he is realy lucky but more and he is finished. So why not provide a similar enviroment for crafter, where solo crafting is possible but grouping provides an advantage. Also I would like to get some kind of minigame, so that I could invest more time in the crafting process to improve the quality. You could also do something similiar for the refining process. But  this should be entirly optional, as it is annoying if you HAVE to do it for mass production. For siege battle quantity is better than quality (and best would be both^^).

 

Oooookay I think that enough for one day so see you

Eldo

Edited by Eldo

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