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Anthrage

On Crows and Vessels

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So I have been away from CF for a while, dragged kicking and screaming by the demands of real life, but am returned now and have been catching up. One of the things that is occupying my mind in this regard at the moment is the practical dynamics of the Crows and Vessels system.

 

One element I have been considering is the balance between level of Crow and quality of Vessel. That is to say, how this will play out across the playerbase and through the progression of the game through time, where you will see certain situations arise which are dictated by these variables more than any other.

 

An example is the field effectiveness comparison between a high level account in a low-quality vessel versus a low level account in a high-quality vessel. Also whether vessels may have restrictions or requirements in this respect, and in what ways vessels can have their values improved or degraded through player action.

 

I imagine many of these issues have already been discussed and I am in the process of looking for those threads now, but if anyone can point me to one, or wishes to start a discussion here on the top, I would be grateful for the input. My thanks!

Edited by Anthrage

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One of the skills in the Vessels skill tree allows a character to use rare vessels.  I imagine the epic and legendary vessels are farther down the tree.  So a brand new crow that hasn't trained those skills up won't be able to use a really high quality vessel to begin with.

 

So only experienced crows will be in high quality vessels.  There's no levelling in Crowfall, so it's all about skill development.  A crow who trains deep into the vessel tree will be able to use better vessels than someone who specializes in the combat trees only.  Realistically, everyone will have to train into the vessel tree at some point if they want to progress - the difference will be in who trains what first and to what extent.  With no numbers to work with, we have no idea if it'll be more useful to start in the vessel tree or the combat tree, or to alternate skills in them or what.

 

Edited to fix a typo.

Edited by durenthal

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Vessels are items, and like all items the will degrade, so you will need to either A. Upkeep it, or B. Procure a new one.

 

Vessels cap out your skill training. If Uncle Bob has trained Greedy Hands to 200, but is using a Common grade Vessel, Greedy Hands would be capped out a 50, and the rest of his training would not be able to be used

 

If Joe Average Guy has Greedy Hands trained to 50, and has a Super grade Vessel, the cap for Greedy Hands would be at 200, but since Joe only has Greedy Hands at 50, he can't use his Vessel to its fullest capacity.

 

EDIT: You'll find a plethora of impressions on the Vessels system here

Edited by coolster50

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You Can't Be A Genius, If You Aren't The Slightest Bit Insane.

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aww....sometimes the forum's just trying to troll me -.-

Wanted to answer, afterwards I saw that coolster beat me to it xD

Edited by Akineko

Let me sing you a song / Of a world that just vanished / Of a story that ended to soon
Let me bring you a cup / Make a toast to the living / And a toast to the legends we share

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Read up on EVE how ships and pods work.  Every time you read pod translate it to crow.  Every time you read ship translate it to CF "vessel".

 

The whole system from passive skill training to vessels has been copied wholesale from EVE.   Low skilled "crows" wont be able to leverage a high quality vessel/ship to maximum effect (and are likely just going to lose money on the proposition).  High skilled crows can use low quality vessels for economical suicide attacks/asymetirc warfare.  Also remember that a great many of a crows skills will be inapplicable to any specific vessel. 

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Thanks guys. It does seem the system will not result in much advantage-taking by new players but allow for strategic choices by those with time invested in raising their account-level skills.

 

That said, amongst "same-level" players you will still have a dynamic between those who use high quality vessels while possessing low-level general skills and those who use low quality vessels with higher general skills. Since in the early going you will have to chose which skills to level, we will see how those two approaches compare. I feared at first that CF would have less build depth than SB, but it`s clear now that it will be the opposite.

 

I`ve read quite a bit on vessels now but don`t think I have seen this point addressed - as they are physical objects, I assume they can be dropped on the ground. Would it be possible to load them into a catapult and launch them over walls? This kind of thing is possible in Wurm Online, as far as items go, I could see some interesting possibilities if it were do-able here. 

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We do not know how catapults will work, ultimatly. In the current version you don't have dto load them with anything, but hopefully that will change later, making munition one more tactical thing to consider. And perhaps they will even give us the chance to pull a "let's bombard minas tirith with corpses"-move.....but well, that would give the besieged party body-parts with whom to craft new vessels. Possibly not a good move xD


Let me sing you a song / Of a world that just vanished / Of a story that ended to soon
Let me bring you a cup / Make a toast to the living / And a toast to the legends we share

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That said, amongst "same-level" players you will still have a dynamic between those who use high quality vessels while possessing low-level general skills and those who use low quality vessels with higher general skills. Since in the early going you will have to chose which skills to level, we will see how those two approaches compare. I feared at first that CF would have less build depth than SB, but it`s clear now that it will be the opposite.

 

 

 

It remains to be proved that there will be real customization on the level of Shadowbane.  An EVE passive training system is not customization, especially if they go with a shallower skill gain curve (which they should as EVE is actively shortening its own curve, though that curve is ridiculous). Given sufficient or equal time, your crow is the same as the next crow that decided to focus on playing a Druid.

 

There will be some customization in the vessels in what skills it allows and bonuses.  Thats all though for launch.  I believe if you dig in the AMA archive Blair or JTodd mentioned they wanted to put in a skill system where you choose your archtypes abilities similar to SB's training points but that it would not be in for launch. 

Edited by angelmar

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I`ve noticed that SB`s old Talent`s and Traits, the runestones one would apply at character creation, now seem to be pureply associated with Vessels...but it is not clear how. It appears there is no longer a character creation process, as such, except for what is described with this statement:

 

"The character creation process works as it did before, only the process is now integrated directly into gameplay (not a separate process, like most MMOs). In fact, you can think of vessels and runestones as the base materials (or reagents) that can be used to “craft” a new avatar."

 

And this:

 

"The avatar will set base attributes and will encapsulate the combined effects of runestones (archetype, disciplines, talents and traits)."

 

Do we yet know how this functions? Apart from crafting, am I correct in understanding that you do not modify Vessels you plan to use via a mechanic where you perform customization of any kind, similar to character creation?

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I`ve noticed that SB`s old Talent`s and Traits, the runestones one would apply at character creation, now seem to be pureply associated with Vessels...but it is not clear how. It appears there is no longer a character creation process, as such, except for what is described with this statement:

 

"The character creation process works as it did before, only the process is now integrated directly into gameplay (not a separate process, like most MMOs). In fact, you can think of vessels and runestones as the base materials (or reagents) that can be used to “craft” a new avatar."

 

And this:

 

"The avatar will set base attributes and will encapsulate the combined effects of runestones (archetype, disciplines, talents and traits)."

 

Do we yet know how this functions? Apart from crafting, am I correct in understanding that you do not modify Vessels you plan to use via a mechanic where you perform customization of any kind, similar to character creation?

 

I think what they mean here is that, when you equip a Vessel, you go to the Character Creator and customize the looks and advantages/disadvantages.

 

But I'm not sure on the crafting vessels, what I do know is that Vessels are categorized by what Archetype they make, i.e. a Myrmidon Vessel creates a Myrmidon Avatar, so when crafting a Vessel, you'll also pick what Archetype that Vessel is for. 


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You Can't Be A Genius, If You Aren't The Slightest Bit Insane.

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EVE Ship

Mech Suit

Tank

Jet

Car

Etc.

 

Think of it like that and everything makes sense. It's a piece of equipment you outfit then get into and drive to battle. 


I role play a wordsmith.

 

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Think of the vessel as just another piece of gear.  Just like any other piece it can be found or crafted, it will have different rarities and difficulties obtaining it and eventually it will degrade and you'll have to get a new one.  The biggest effects of the vessel is the fact that your archetype and disciplines are tied to it so when you get a new vessel you have the option of switching things up.  But other than that just think of it as a armor set you wear under the rest of your armor.

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Question for you all.

 

Export rules, and thus winning or kneeling in a Campaign, it seems to me, have become much more important with the advent of Vessels. Not just for the Vessels themselves, but the runes and other materials used in crafting them. I suspect some people who rejected the idea of kneeling out of hand might be moved to reconsider their position in light of this.

 

Given Exporting out of Campaigns might previously have been used primarily for gear and resources, and now will involve character-requiring Vessels and related materials, will this impact your decision-making?

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Question for you all.

 

Export rules, and thus winning or kneeling in a Campaign, it seems to me, have become much more important with the advent of Vessels. Not just for the Vessels themselves, but the runes and other materials used in crafting them. I suspect some people who rejected the idea of kneeling out of hand might be moved to reconsider their position in light of this.

 

Given Exporting out of Campaigns might previously have been used primarily for gear and resources, and now will involve character-requiring Vessels and related materials, will this impact your decision-making?

 

It also depends on the import rules of the next campaign you'll be joining. If you and your guild only play on "no import" servers, then you're not necessarily concerned with the vessels and items you'll be pulling out of the campaign. The drama of the campaign may play a role, as many guilds may refuse to kneel simply out of spite.


Shadowbane - House Avari/Hy'shen
"Gimp elves get good elves killed." - Belina

Avari Discord - https://discord.gg/Bch24PV

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The dual role of vessels as trade good and tactical resource make for some interesting calculus. I suspect they may be very much a tool for the Balance faction on Infected World campaigns, as letting a number of high quality vessels fall into the hand of either the Chaos or Order faction might be a fairly quick and easy way to provide one of them with an advantage.

 

The system really is quite fertile! :)

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