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Verot

Combat: I've been spoiled by BDO

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To be fair I have not tested in quite a while but I did log in yesterday and for my tastes (opinion) combat has a long ways to go. As has been mentioned by others, combat simply is not fluid at this stage. Yes I know that we are still Pre-Alpha, however I have not seen anything from the devs commenting on the pacing of combat and their goal. We typically get the repeated mantra of "combat first" without a clear idea of what that means. Also, the overall pace of combat has remained much the same since the original Hunger Dome.

 

While BDO combat pacing might be on the fast end, what it does offer is a fluidity which "feels" good. One of the most glaring issues I encountered during my brief time testing yesterday as the Ranger was how locked down the character felt. I don't quite get the logic behind forcing a Ranger to stand still while drawing her bow when other characters are allowed the freedom to run around and attack. Sure there can be something said about needing to be stationary when using some of the special attacks, but I can't help but feel crippled when I have to stand still just for a normal left click attack.

 

While CF and BDO are obviously different games and in different stages of development, there are similarities that make comparisons worthwhile. Both games strive for action based combat revolving around limited skill sets that do not rely on tab-targeting.

 

My 2 cents for now, for what that's worth.

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I agree that combat needs to feel more fluid in CF.  However, I don't think that BDO is a good model for combat as a matter of taste (as you indicate, it is on the fast side and I think it looks a feels a bit spazzy).  CF's combat needs to be less hitchy.  Of course, if combat is sped up, TTK has to be adjusted to compensate.  As far as the Ranger is concerned, I have fallen in love with the basic ranged combat in Gloria Victis.  It has:

 

*Skill based aiming (you have to adjust for distance and movement--lead your shots)

*Skill shots (head shots for crits)

*Slowed movement when drawing or firing the bow

*A release mechanic allows for lower damage quick shots and higher damage full pull duration shots (a optimum window for maximum damage is only there for a second or two)

 

If bow combat was done like this in CF, I would have to have a Stalker or Ranger Vessel.  It is amazing how fun and satisfying this simple bow mechanic actually is.  

Edited by Regulus

The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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I lightly sprint and sometimes run at full speed with a few back flips drawing back 50 lbs on my bow all the time in real life all the while with perfect aim. .

 

Exactly. I want ranged attacks that root you in place and hit like a truck. Ranged characters should not be able to go toe to toe with a melee class by bouncing around the world while simultaneously shooting like some wacky cartoon character. If a range character is left unmolested, however, they should bring the pain.


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I lightly sprint and sometimes run at full speed with a few back flips drawing back 50 lbs on my bow all the time in real life all the while with perfect aim. .

Awesome  game to real life comparison. In spirit of such comparisons, I hereby propose from now Ranger kills with 1 or 2 arrows at most. As skilled archer I believe is able to kill person with no armor at all with one arrow.

For god sake... we are playing a game. It has to be fun first, realistic second.

Edited by Naur

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To be fair I have not tested in quite a while but I did log in yesterday and for my tastes (opinion) combat has a long ways to go. As has been mentioned by others, combat simply is not fluid at this stage. Yes I know that we are still Pre-Alpha, however I have not seen anything from the devs commenting on the pacing of combat and their goal. We typically get the repeated mantra of "combat first" without a clear idea of what that means. Also, the overall pace of combat has remained much the same since the original Hunger Dome.

 

While BDO combat pacing might be on the fast end, what it does offer is a fluidity which "feels" good. One of the most glaring issues I encountered during my brief time testing yesterday as the Ranger was how locked down the character felt. I don't quite get the logic behind forcing a Ranger to stand still while drawing her bow when other characters are allowed the freedom to run around and attack. Sure there can be something said about needing to be stationary when using some of the special attacks, but I can't help but feel crippled when I have to stand still just for a normal left click attack.

 

While CF and BDO are obviously different games and in different stages of development, there are similarities that make comparisons worthwhile. Both games strive for action based combat revolving around limited skill sets that do not rely on tab-targeting.

 

My 2 cents for now, for what that's worth.

I completely agree with your statement. I have no idea the logic behind a ranger that can't move and shoot.


 

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Anyone that says they like ranger being a sitting duck while attacking either doesn't player ranger or enjoys killing them easily as they are one of the slowest and weakest targets on the field. ( other classes move and/or have more mobility. Rangers are one of if not the most weak and get hit the hardest )


 

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There's a clear (and wide) middle ground between 360 snipes and rooted shooting.  I think Ace can and should find it.  If they do, however, RMB mobility might need to be revisited for melee and ranged characters.


Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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Anyone that says they like ranger being a sitting duck while attacking either doesn't player ranger or enjoys killing them easily as they are one of the slowest and weakest targets on the field. ( other classes move and/or have more mobility. Rangers are one of if not the most weak and get hit the hardest )

 

I've been playing a Ranger.  I would be ok with the root-while-shooting only if the transition between the two is faster/smoother.  You should be able to be running, stop, pop, start running, stop pop, quickly and smoothly.  I think part of what makes me dislike the current root-while-shooting is because of how slow it is to start running away from an attacker. 

 

I think maybe trying a snare while auto attacking, but root while charging a shot, might work too. 

 

Another thing to consider is Ranger's can do really well for their group if they're unnoticed by the enemy and able to just blanket AoE powerblock and dps everyone down.  The problem is once they're discovered, the clunkyness of the animations/controls makes any sort of escaping or attacking in between dashes/sprints far too difficult and frustrating.


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BDO has fluid combat? More like Desync combat with imortal sorcs (if they want it no one can hit them). I had my share in 1vs to Guild versus guild combat with both my Wiz and Zerker. BDO is fluid thanks to everything beeing handled from client site. I think they changed that lately to some point being server side. While beeing full client side first The Desync was real with some people having a difference of 30 real life min between them and the rest of the party.

In addition there where lots of hackers running around thanks to everything beeing client side.

 

I played yesterday too and for the most party i liked the ranged chars. The dmg could be a bit higher ( a fully charges left click headshoot should do at least 20k dmg) but remember that the game is going to be balanced around group vs group not 1 v 1.

 

This game is trying to have all players fully synchron with each other no matter how many player and actions are on the screen. This is difficult as it is but its even more difficult if the chars are moving around while attacking. Thats why bdo has so many desync problems with chars like archer and sorc who jump around like a rabit on drugs. Thats at least my gues.

 

Thanks to the game beeing hardcore player looting perma death to some point  etc having a slow combat is just right. People need the time to decide what to do in combat. There is no "uh i may die but i respawn and be back in combat in 15 sec anyway" like in BDO.

 

I like fluid combat too but from my exp in the past if the chars have to mutch movement then it causes desync ( GW2 had this problem too while it was not as extrem as bdo.)

Standing around everytime to attack is no fun but having enemys teleport thanks to desync is just frustrating.


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the cool downs on forest step and disengage are far too long for what they do [45s, 60s] - combined with their long animations and cast times need improvement. 

 

spinstep okay recently after distance increase - but i think ranger should get a 'free double cast' on spinstep like the champion.

 

still hesitant over adding mobility while charging bow attacks and most spells personally though.


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Yes lets add mobility to a range dps that can pop off 16k to 20k long range snipes.

If there is also a way for melee to close distance just as quickly as rangers become mobile? 

 

Sure. Glad you agree. 


aka honeybear

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I lightly sprint and sometimes run at full speed with a few back flips drawing back 50 lbs on my bow all the time in real life all the while with perfect aim. .

I wear full plate armor and jump several meters into the air...

I can conjure fire with my fingertips....

I shoot a rain of arrows all by myself....

I'm a centaur....

I completely forgot about this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEG-ly9tQGk) real? fake? something in between?

 

BDO has fluid combat? More like Desync combat with imortal sorcs (if they want it no one can hit them). I had my share in 1vs to Guild versus guild combat with both my Wiz and Zerker. BDO is fluid thanks to everything beeing handled from client site. I think they changed that lately to some point being server side. While beeing full client side first The Desync was real with some people having a difference of 30 real life min between them and the rest of the party.

In addition there where lots of hackers running around thanks to everything beeing client side.

 

I played yesterday too and for the most party i liked the ranged chars. The dmg could be a bit higher ( a fully charges left click headshoot should do at least 20k dmg) but remember that the game is going to be balanced around group vs group not 1 v 1.

 

This game is trying to have all players fully synchron with each other no matter how many player and actions are on the screen. This is difficult as it is but its even more difficult if the chars are moving around while attacking. Thats why bdo has so many desync problems with chars like archer and sorc who jump around like a rabit on drugs. Thats at least my gues.

 

Thanks to the game beeing hardcore player looting perma death to some point  etc having a slow combat is just right. People need the time to decide what to do in combat. There is no "uh i may die but i respawn and be back in combat in 15 sec anyway" like in BDO.

 

I like fluid combat too but from my exp in the past if the chars have to mutch movement then it causes desync ( GW2 had this problem too while it was not as extrem as bdo.)

Standing around everytime to attack is no fun but having enemys teleport thanks to desync is just frustrating.

 

I'm not saying that BDO is perfect by any means but as a litmus test it is a perfectly valid comparison. Some of the desync issues were a real issue, especially for zerker character grapples etc. I think the 30 min example you mention is not in the least bit typical. The point I was trying to make when comparing to BDO was the fluidity of the combinations, the general pacing of combat and movement as it related to combat.

 

I understand the time to evaluate etc. On two extremes you have turn based combat and then games like BDO which are extremely fast paced. The assumption of no consequences for death in BDO have also only recently changed and it depends on circumstance. If you are a red/pk then there are very real consequences to gear etc, and not so long ago pvp deaths resulted in a loss of xp of around 2% which is a pain in the ass. Full looting in CF is also no guarantee, depending on rule set. I would like to see them push the needle a little closer to BDO in terms of the fluidity of the combat.

Edited by Verot

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BDO has fluid combat? More like Desync combat with imortal sorcs (if they want it no one can hit them). I had my share in 1vs to Guild versus guild combat with both my Wiz and Zerker. BDO is fluid thanks to everything beeing handled from client site. I think they changed that lately to some point being server side. While beeing full client side first The Desync was real with some people having a difference of 30 real life min between them and the rest of the party.

In addition there where lots of hackers running around thanks to everything beeing client side.

 

 

It should also be mentioned that BDO is not as physics based as Crowfall. Beyond that, I do agree that combat feels clunky and there's work to be done to smooth it out.

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lmbo bdo is bad

 

u dont need a bunch of emot-words.gif to say

 

"i like combat and combat is good and make it good"

 

instead u r goin

 

"make it bdo combat"

 

lmbo


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