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Verot

Combat: I've been spoiled by BDO

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So, here's an idea. Split bows into short and longbows. Short would be for shooting on the move, long would root you in place for those long range, heavy draw, high damage shots. It makes for more to balance, but I think it'd be cool to let rangers decide whether they want to focus more on sniping or skirmishing.

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Just giving them some credit for it being action combat. Imagine someone not having ever played watching a YouTube video of shadowbane combat? We look like we're all standing still in particle showers, panning a camera around.

 

I tried to get someone to play shadowbane. He got to level 7, after I leveled him to there, and when I tried to explain how combat worked with him pressing the F key to engage a target, he quit and all he got out of it was "all I do is press F". I even gave him an account with a fully geared, fully leveled and disc'd out toon, and invited him to a siege. he kept dying because he didn't want to learn on noob land how combat worked, so he quit.

 

I mean, Shadowbane truly is the best example of rooted combat.

I swear to god we have the same friend. 

 

Maddening. 


aka honeybear

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The classic example I always used for "clunky" was the Confessor's Zealot Rush.  You would dash, then come to a complete and total stop before you could continue running again.  Then Doggett went and fixed the thing.   The same idea applies to many other powers and archetypes, though.  As far as fluidity is concerned, I think it's less a question of when you can or cannot move/cast powers, but how and when you transition between the two.

 

the clunky effect is still very much apparent in the rolling animation at the end of Ranger's #3 > disengage combo

 

[and the general amount of time this combo and their forest step takes]

So, here's an idea. Split bows into short and longbows. Short would be for shooting on the move, long would root you in place for those long range, heavy draw, high damage shots. It makes for more to balance, but I think it'd be cool to let rangers decide whether they want to focus more on sniping or skirmishing.

 

the following are already in the game according to skill training:

 

however i assume they are archetype / runestone / promotion locked....

 

crossbows [? runestone / promotion like knight ?]

one handed pistols [duelist?]

 

shortbow [e.g. ? runestone / promotion like knight ?]

recurve bow [e.g. ranger?]

longbow [e.g. stalker?]

 

but yes having the option of attack speed versus range for the archer classes would be interesting!

Edited by Tinnis

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Like many others here I don't think BDO combat is the best there is. Sometimes it's unnecessarily fast, and that's bad for a MMO because it goes with desync, not to mention that large fights are full of people teleporting left and right (which ironically is the element that Crowfall chose to "copy").

But yea, the way skills work is light years ahead..... which is sad.

 

Yes lets add mobility to a range dps that can pop off 16k to 20k long range snipes.

 

....... you know damages are designed right? Or do you think God decides how much damage the Ranger does?

 

I lightly sprint and sometimes run at full speed with a few back flips drawing back 50 lbs on my bow all the time in real life all the while with perfect aim. .

 

I don't even know how to properly respond to this.

Rangers shooting while moving would be the least fantasy element in this goddamn game.

 

I agree that combat needs to feel more fluid in CF.  However, I don't think that BDO is a good model for combat as a matter of taste (as you indicate, it is on the fast side and I think it looks a feels a bit spazzy).  CF's combat needs to be less hitchy.  Of course, if combat is sped up, TTK has to be adjusted to compensate.  As far as the Ranger is concerned, I have fallen in love with the basic ranged combat in Gloria Victis.  It has:

 

*Skill based aiming (you have to adjust for distance and movement--lead your shots)

*Skill shots (head shots for crits)

*Slowed movement when drawing or firing the bow

*A release mechanic allows for lower damage quick shots and higher damage full pull duration shots (a optimum window for maximum damage is only there for a second or two)

 

If bow combat was done like this in CF, I would have to have a Stalker or Ranger Vessel.  It is amazing how fun and satisfying this simple bow mechanic actually is.  

 

See? It's actually both skilled and enjoyable.

Problem is people like to speak their mouth without trying things or they just choose the least-skilled path to avoid showing their lack of.

Edited by Fenris DDevil

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 One of the most glaring issues I encountered during my brief time testing yesterday as the Ranger was how locked down the character felt. I don't quite get the logic behind forcing a Ranger to stand still while drawing her bow when other characters are allowed the freedom to run around and attack. Sure there can be something said about needing to be stationary when using some of the special attacks, but I can't help but feel crippled when I have to stand still just for a normal left click attack.

I wish they'd at least put in a short keystroke queue for powers they make "rooted" or stationary. The feeling you describe is worse (my opinion) than it has to be because you have to sit there and wait for the (now shorter, thank god) animation to complete before you can input the following powers. If we must be rooted on some powers it would feel worlds better if, instead of 2, (wait) 2, (wait), "T", (wait), 3, (wait) etc., you could just enter abilities naturally, like 2, 2, T, 3, etc. it would feel better. Allow the RMB power to break the queue, because things change, but at least stop making us sit there and watch the show before entering abilities.

 

It feels like you're having a conversation with someone who just won't shut up and let you get a word in right now and I don't think it has to.

Edited by coolwaters

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Lighten up Francis

 

It was sarcasm. It is my understanding the Dev team is aware combat, even ranger range combat, is clunky. Just as Artcraft smoothed over the Confessor, the Ranger in time will get love as well. It feels as if by design range dps will not be of the kiting mechanic kind. From all indications the lmb movement on melee combat is just place holder tech as we await the next introduction of combat mechanics.

 

Like many others here I don't think BDO combat is the best there is. Sometimes it's unnecessarily fast, and that's bad for a MMO because it goes with desync, not to mention that large fights are full of people teleporting left and right (which ironically is the element that Crowfall chose to "copy").

But yea, the way skills work is light years ahead..... which is sad.

 

 

....... you know damages are designed right? Or do you think God decides how much damage the Ranger does?

 

 

I don't even know how to properly respond to this.

Rangers shooting while moving would be the least fantasy element in this goddamn game.

 

 

See? It's actually both skilled and enjoyable.

Problem is people like to speak their mouth without trying things or they just choose the least-skilled path to avoid showing their lack of.


Hammers High !!  Master Brewer of the Dwarven Hold Mithril Warhammers

 

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Lighten up Francis

 

It was sarcasm. It is my understanding the Dev team is aware combat, even ranger range combat, is clunky. Just as Artcraft smoothed over the Confessor, the Ranger in time will get love as well. It feels as if by design range dps will not be of the kiting mechanic kind. From all indications the lmb movement on melee combat is just place holder tech as we await the next introduction of combat mechanics.

 

 

This is cause for concern. I can see them easily clap backing themselves Ja Rule style if they decide to move away from this. Movement on LMB isn't a bad thing for the game, so why fix something that isn't broken and actually makes combat feel better?

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This is cause for concern. I can see them easily clap backing themselves Ja Rule style if they decide to move away from this. Movement on LMB isn't a bad thing for the game, so why fix something that isn't broken and actually makes combat feel better?

Holla holla


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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This is cause for concern. I can see them easily clap backing themselves Ja Rule style if they decide to move away from this. Movement on LMB isn't a bad thing for the game, so why fix something that isn't broken and actually makes combat feel better?

I would hope not. My understanding, and anyone correct me please if I misunderstood this, is the the current combat lmb movement was just a placeholder tech as the team wanted to see what how it "felt" and get feedback on it. Clearly it's working and testers prefer it.I feel as if the silence from Artcraft on fluid combat is due for them still in the development phase of tech to see what they can and cannot do. They dont want to promise something then not be able to deliver.

 

I know I am not alone in wishing we would get a clear outline of how Artcraft envisions combat movement to be on final release.

Edited by barab

Hammers High !!  Master Brewer of the Dwarven Hold Mithril Warhammers

 

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...

 

See? It's actually both skilled and enjoyable.

Problem is people like to speak their mouth without trying things or they just choose the least-skilled path to avoid showing their lack of.

 

GV bow combat is BUT the game has a more "realistic" combat model so things like kiting are very limited.  You can move, but it is slow so if the opponent charges you won't get off that many shots and you'll have to switch to melee or get slaughtered (likely).  I think GV ranged is an example of relatively simple, skill based combat that is both fun and challenging.

 

If I were designing the Ranger (and Stalker) bow attacks, I would flat copy their design as closely as I could.  


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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The devs didn't really change any of the skills with Confessors, merely cleaned up when animations started and stopped to give the appearance of it.

If the end result is better gameplay then whats the difference what they change. It also doesn't preclude them from making changes to skills in the future where needed.

 

just seems a bit nit picky when the big picture should be improved gameplay and not exactly what was changed or tweaked to make the improvement happen.

Edited by pang

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I agree the combat could be a bit faster, but as a former Member of one of the Top Guilds in EU, i have to say BDO combat isnt that much fun as most people think, spamming the same skill over and over as certain classes during pvp still bores the crap out of me.

That's a point I've been making for a long time.

 

Skill isn't restricted to the best bunny-hopping, recticle-aiming, hit-box targeting twitchtard around. That "skill" is extremely simple. It isn't complex. That doesn't mean it isn't a form of skill, obviously.

 

Efficient use of a wide array of diverse and reactionary abilities, to me anyway, involves far more of what I would call skill than a rather simplistic game that is essentially a glorified fantasy shooter.

 

But I agree with your first point as well. Ranger in particular feels clunky still and something does still (generally) feel a bit off. (caveat being I haven't really played in a month!).

Edited by coolwaters

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I agree the combat could be a bit faster, but as a former Member of one of the Top Guilds in EU, i have to say BDO combat isnt that much fun as most people think, spamming the same skill over and over as certain classes during pvp still bores the crap out of me.

Honestly it isn't much different iin CF. Spamming that same button to traverse the "combo". With the Druid you're literally alternating between 2 spam and wicked winds when in death.

Edited by helix

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Honestly it isn't much different iin CF. Spamming that same button to traverse the "combo". With the Druid you're literally alternating between 2 spam and wicked winds when in death.

 

Then you don't play her right. I use at least 5 buttons. ;-) Some more than the others, true.


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I agree that combat needs to feel more fluid in CF.  However, I don't think that BDO is a good model for combat as a matter of taste (as you indicate, it is on the fast side and I think it looks a feels a bit spazzy).  CF's combat needs to be less hitchy.  Of course, if combat is sped up, TTK has to be adjusted to compensate.  As far as the Ranger is concerned, I have fallen in love with the basic ranged combat in Gloria Victis.  It has:

 

*Skill based aiming (you have to adjust for distance and movement--lead your shots)

*Skill shots (head shots for crits)

*Slowed movement when drawing or firing the bow

*A release mechanic allows for lower damage quick shots and higher damage full pull duration shots (a optimum window for maximum damage is only there for a second or two)

 

If bow combat was done like this in CF, I would have to have a Stalker or Ranger Vessel.  It is amazing how fun and satisfying this simple bow mechanic actually is.  

 

What's your opinion on Gloria Victus?


“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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