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Verot

Combat: I've been spoiled by BDO

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I'm discussing combat mechanics only to the point that they are fun, but not THE fun.  I want siege mechanics, as in cities that players can build, territories that we can conquer, and mechanics to engage in meaningful takeovers.  How the 1 on 1 combat mechanics are handled are not the "fun" for me; I derive more fun from the asset destruction, and building before the destruction.

 

I'm not arguing that modern games don't have good action combat mechanics, I'm arguing that no games currently have fun siege mechanics.  I have enjoyed playing Overwatch, but Overwatch has no siege mechanics.  The reason I brought it up in the first place is that good personal combat gets boring after a while, no matter how "fun" the combat mechanics can be; what keeps me in a game long term is the empire building aspect that I have only found in Shadowbane and EvE.

 

So for me, I don't need the engaging action combat, I need the siege mechanics.  I want the aspects of an RPG; character building, exploration, persistence in the world.  Not everyone wants action combat in their RPGs, but that doesn't mean we don't like action combat; I just feel it has no place in RPGs, hence not in CF.  Whatever type of personal combat is chosen eventually, it will not cause me to leave or stay with the game; what will cause me to leave or stay is how they handle the world building (letting players build their EKs and kingdoms in CWs) and how they utilize asset destruction.

This should be plastered somewhere so the devs realize some if the testers maintain perspective.

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I'm discussing combat mechanics only to the point that they are fun, but not THE fun. I want siege mechanics, as in cities that players can build, territories that we can conquer, and mechanics to engage in meaningful takeovers. How the 1 on 1 combat mechanics are handled are not the "fun" for me; I derive more fun from the asset destruction, and building before the destruction.

 

I'm not arguing that modern games don't have good action combat mechanics, I'm arguing that no games currently have fun siege mechanics. I have enjoyed playing Overwatch, but Overwatch has no siege mechanics. The reason I brought it up in the first place is that good personal combat gets boring after a while, no matter how "fun" the combat mechanics can be; what keeps me in a game long term is the empire building aspect that I have only found in Shadowbane and EvE.

 

So for me, I don't need the engaging action combat, I need the siege mechanics. I want the aspects of an RPG; character building, exploration, persistence in the world. Not everyone wants action combat in their RPGs, but that doesn't mean we don't like action combat; I just feel it has no place in RPGs, hence not in CF. Whatever type of personal combat is chosen eventually, it will not cause me to leave or stay with the game; what will cause me to leave or stay is how they handle the world building (letting players build their EKs and kingdoms in CWs) and how they utilize asset destruction.

I feel you, I'm not as much into building destruction, but I'm more into battlefield combat than dueling. The point I was making wasn't about whether other games have it, the point I make is that it's more likely that a successful MMO which already has other things secured will add the siege features you desire in a functioning game rather than this game doing well enough to satisfy that interest.

 

It only matters if they get all the necessary parts operational, even if they perfect siege destruction, it won't compensate for certain omissions.

Edited by bahamutkaiser

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I feel you, I'm not as much into building destruction, but I'm more into battlefield combat than dueling. The point I was making wasn't about whether other games have it, the point I make is that it's more likely that a successful MMO which already has other things secured will add the siege features you desire in a functioning game rather than this game doing well enough to satisfy that interest.

 

It only matters if they get all the necessary parts operational, even if they perfect siege destruction, it won't compensate for certain omissions.

and battlefield combat does not work properly if everyone teleports around the whole time.

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and battlefield combat does not work properly if everyone teleports around the whole time.

This. BDO had / has this. Thanks to extrem desync combined with characters that can spam attack while on the move while each having an aditional "movemen ability". You could say that BDO is to mutch action combat. To mutch fast movement.  Some might disagree here but having people die left and right in an instant that they can not even do anything about is not a good combat system.  Also BDO combat is RNG based in every CC case so yah

 

This game gets some harsch death pens so the combat needs to be slow enough that people dont get insta killed unless you are sorroundet and havy outnumbert.

Good players will still exel at using the right abilitys at the right time in the right position and if you feel you can do that while half asleep then take command of a unit. Watch your surroundings watch where your team mates are and tell them what to do. They will aprechiate it if you help them with that becouse most poeple are not cappable of moving a char like a master and doing tactical / strat command at the same time.

Thats why you often see comanders of raids / units doing worse then most team members.

 

 

GW 2 has / had the problem of the enemy beeing invisible until you are allready right in them. They could not handle 100 vs 100. And im allready seeing here thing like 300 vs 300 aliance vs aliance is not uncomone in siege warfare games at least during the weekends.

I think GW2 handled this by making only the very basic outline of the character apear first ( example you see a human but the entire human is red so you see no eyes or clothes , just a red human form).

 

 

 

I also agree with the Siege mechanics beeing more important then fluid combat. I do not think that they will make a game where the combat is more fluid and better than allready existing games so that wont be a selling point anyway. I just like many others came here for base building and destruction. If that aspect is good than even the current combat could keep me playing but not the other way around.

But i think that the combat will get polished and helping them do that is the tast of every tester.  If just if they make the combat more fluid then CCs need to last longer and need to be instant casts (at least some of them)  not combos or they never hit.


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GW 2 has / had the problem of the enemy beeing invisible until you are allready right in them. They could not handle 100 vs 100. And im allready seeing here thing like 300 vs 300 aliance vs aliance is not uncomone in siege warfare games at least during the weekends.

I think GW2 handled this by making only the very basic outline of the character apear first ( example you see a human but the entire human is red so you see no eyes or clothes , just a red human form).

 

It was called culling and almost every large scale pvp game I've played had it because showing hundreds of players on screen with shadows, foliage, and vfx would grind even the most beast rigs to a halt. The only game that didn't completely buckle under the pressure when it came to sieges was DFO, and that's only because the vfx in that game looked like '99 EQ and player models were slightly above asheron's call quality. They had to make some serious compromises to make sure poorly made socks worked in that game and there was still problems.

 

 

 

I also agree with the Siege mechanics beeing more important then fluid combat. I do not think that they will make a game where the combat is more fluid and better than already existing games so that won't be a selling point anyway.

 

If the combat isn't "fluid" and decent, no one is going to stick around and siege. If the siege system is akin to age of conan during the first 3 months, no one is going to stick around regardless of whether or not the combat is fantastic. It's not an either/or scenario; they both have to work well and be appealing to the customer.

 

I'm not sure what people are expecting from sieges, but I'd be willing to wager that it's going to be as good as any other siege based mmorpg I've played.

Edited by helix

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BDO combat was fun, but it's far from what I would choose for a RvR/NvN PvP system. TERA and GW2 designs would be much better guides for what works as I've seen fights with 60+ players work flawlessly in both systems. Soft targeting games like BDO and B&S really fall apart at anything larger than 5v5 from my experience.


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So, here's an idea. Split bows into short and longbows. Short would be for shooting on the move, long would root you in place for those long range, heavy draw, high damage shots. It makes for more to balance, but I think it'd be cool to let rangers decide whether they want to focus more on sniping or skirmishing.

 

I really like this idea.  I would also like to see throwing daggers and throwing axes, with a lesser range than a short bow.

 

 

As far as BDO combat, the thing I like most is how fluid and responsive it feels.  And the way the abilities are input (like a fighting game) to link together for the ability to combo by improvisation. 

 

But, I think a better, and more realistic (for me, more fun) system is more like Dark Souls or Severance.  So, I'd like the fluidity, responsive quality, and input/combo system of BDO.  But, I want the pacing and positional/tactical qualities of Dark Souls.  IMO it would be slower paced, which would be good for sync.  Because of the slower pacing, it might necessitate adjustment of time-to-kill, of course.

Edited by mourne

"Food for the crows..."    Nobuo Xa'el

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BDO combat was fun, but it's far from what I would choose for a RvR/NvN PvP system. TERA and GW2 designs would be much better guides for what works as I've seen fights with 60+ players work flawlessly in both systems. Soft targeting games like BDO and B&S really fall apart at anything larger than 5v5 from my experience.

 

This is one of the reasons I continually bring up TERA. I've played a lot of fun action combat games that have their merits, but I've played a lot of TERA in large scale PvP. I spent a ton of time in GvG battles out in the game world and it worked really well (in 2014, not the weird sissy "let's meet up and duel to the death en masse" stuff I've seen them do more recently with the new system).

 

 

This. BDO had / has this. Thanks to extrem desync combined with characters that can spam attack while on the move while each having an aditional "movemen ability". You could say that BDO is to mutch action combat. To mutch fast movement.  Some might disagree here but having people die left and right in an instant that they can not even do anything about is not a good combat system.  Also BDO combat is RNG based in every CC case so yah

 

This game gets some harsch death pens so the combat needs to be slow enough that people dont get insta killed unless you are sorroundet and havy outnumbert.

 

 

 

People die in BDO because of the insanely powerful gear, not because of the combat. That's true of a lot of Korean games, but the OP gear is not something to worry about in Crowfall. Get some low-enchanted gear and fight vs someone with similar AP/DP and you'll see how much better it feels.

 

In terms of the CC, yea the RNG based CC in BDO was a bad idea but the flipside is TERA where it's 100% skill based and there's basically no DR on CC, but everyone has a ton of hard CC, so if you're bad you're screwed and if you're good you only need to make one mistake until you too are screwed. That's not fun because you have to be hyper focused all the time. A good middle ground needs to be found. I do think CC is very important but it also needs to be done right. 

 

Damage output is a big part of CC being done right. In TERA you could have fights going on for absolutely insane amounts of time, but one mistake could mean people go down in seconds (not fun). Those extremes felt a bit too harsh, because you needed some good CC and good burst to go with it to take someone down but nobody likes being on the dying end of that, feeling like you had no chance to fight back.

 

I'd like to see Crowfall find a better way to do that - without being forced to have all damage be small and over a longer period of time because there's not much real healing to keep them alive and not enough ways to consistently avoid damage. I disagree that damage should be all that slow. I'd say something like GW2 had good pacing in fights most of the time - both sides felt like they had a chance and there was enough back and forth, but there was enough damage going out to feel like you actually did something.

 

If you're going to have limited in combat healing and death penalties, all players need to be able to stay alive on their own for a while (until the support and tanks come along to save them hopefully) via skilled damage avoidance - dodges and iframes on short CDs (that are only dodges and not dual purpose skills), blocks on classes that make sense, enough CC on short enough CD's to defend yourself, etc. You don't want people going down fast in a game like this, they need to have enough recourse (this also adds interesting depth and skill to a fight when it's more than just pew pew you're squishy and I got the jump on you so you're dead), but you also don't want them sitting around at less than full HP for long periods of time - providing enough health recovery is important. The other problem there of course is making sure the support and tanks actually are needed roles but that's another topic (I really want to compare the Druid to the BDO Witch here but I won't). 

 

Edit: On the top of desync TERA had that problem too but it wasn't as bad. :\

Edited by Leiloni

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*Snip*

 

It's kinda funny for me, when people talk about Tera CC as to be to hard to play around in terms of being unforgiving.

Which btw is only half true ( it holds only in 1v1 or 3v3 not bigger battles)

 

To quote :

TERA where it's 100% skill based and there's basically no DR on CC" 

so if you're bad you're screwed and if you're good you only need to make one mistake until you too are screwed."  

That's not fun because you have to be hyper focused all the time"

In TERA you could have fights going on for absolutely insane amounts of time, but one mistake could mean people go down in seconds (not fun)."

 

For me it's best design ever. In smaller fights (1v1 up to 3v3 let's say) you HAD to be SUPER focused. That's good right ? You can't play the game if you are not focused and win ? It also promotes knowledge of other archetypes and skill (becasue if you don't know them you will make mistakes that will cost you.)

And yes if you screwed up by whatever means ( missing timing , missing skillshot, being outplayed, baited or whatever ) that meant death. That's like custard COOL. Way better then system where you can always recover because it would be to hardcore if someone could just outplay and kill you o.0

 

 

In bigger fights - single target CC wasn't as important. Only Lancer mass pull was the thing. Also Tera has gigantics heals ( 1-2 heals 1%>100%). So in bigger fights it was cool.

 

 

If there ever was a problem with this system - it was ping. 100~~ ping was a considerable advantage in landing CC.  I could also agree Time to KIll in Crowfall should be bigger since consequences of death are bigger then in Tera. But that's about it.  

 

I really wish, they will make combat that promotes mechanic of  

1) outplaying opponent via skill baiting, skill canceling , forcing them to miss

2) if what I said in 1 is done by you succesfuly then I hope you are being able to kill opponent consistently and they can't just recover from EVERYTHING you had thrown at them. One stun break ? sure.  15KKK Hp that allows them outlive all CC durations and 71 rotations of your combos ? NO PLEASE DIE.

 

 

PS : And it's not if someone landed 1 CC you were always dead. Sometimes yes it was just that, but if you baited bigger cd skills earlier, or was hit not but first but his third CC and opponent no longer could chain CC, it was all cool. You take dmg and proceed with fight.

Edited by Naur

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I really wish, they will make combat that promotes mechanic of  

1) outplaying opponent via skill baiting, skill canceling , forcing them to miss

 

 

Well yes larger fights CC was still there and still important but not as bad as in smaller fights for numerous reasons. The point being TERA is the opposite of BDO's RNG CC and a middle ground between the two would be ideal.

 

In terms of this quote I agree and that was my point in mentioning GW2's pacing compared to TERA. In TERA you could go down in seconds if you made a mistake and your opponent successfully capitalized on that - mostly due to burst being too high and CC being too harsh. That's far too quick and punishing. I liked GW2 because you had several chances to outplay your opponent and one mistake isn't an immediate death. In TERA it often felt like you only had to get lucky once, whereas something like GW2 actually forces you to be good repeatedly.

Edited by Leiloni

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one mistake could mean people go down in seconds

 

Keep in mind the TTK in Tera varies a bit between classes, especially with their new classes. Ninja DPS is insane (first Brawler, now this trash? %#@! you bhs). Your ability to take hits also depends on your class quite a bit as well.

 

That said, yes you can die pretty quick. But if the gear is balanced and it's not two naked guys fighting with +15 weapons, then it wasn't like a single combo (hit, if they were completely naked) would take you from 100% to 0% hp (excluding new classes). Also, apart from some annoying stuff like warrior's backstab, it's not like you didn't have tons of chances to prevent getting caught by big damage (in 1v1 and 3v3 at least). 

 

Punishing mistakes is good. You should not be able to custard up 5 times in a row, while your opponent plays flawlessly, and survive.

Edited by Aguise

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I only can agree with you. Coming from Guild Wars 2 and also some hours of BDO, the combat still has to go a long way until it can compete with how those games feel. Not being able to move during almost everything is currently my biggest issue I have with the combat. On some (very very very few and powerful) skills it does make sense to add a movement block which is very punishing - but for the most part I feel like being not able to move hurts the game more than it adds.

I have to be honest, if this stays I feel like the combat will kill the game for me (since that is such a huge part of it). I just can not go back to rooted combat coming from those games.

Edited by Inasyah

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,,...You get killed over and over again, that doesn't mean the game is unbalanced - it means that You are a bad player" -JTC

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I only can agree with you. Coming from Guild Wars 2 and also some hours of BDO, the combat still has to go a long way until it can compete with how those games feel. Not being able to move during almost everything is currently my biggest issue I have with the combat. On some (very very very few and powerful) skills it does make sense to add a movement block which is very punishing - but for the most part I feel like being not able to move hurts the game more than it adds.

I have to be honest, if this stays I feel like the combat will kill the game for me (since that is such a huge part of it). I just can not go back to rooted combat coming from those games.

 

I have to say, I feel like this too. And I think a lot of the people that are waiting for this game will say the same thing as us. I said in another thread that the combat is a major pillar in this game and I wasn't joking. Everyone I know is watching this game closely and awaiting the end result of what they do with combat. These are people that have played GW2 and other action combat games without rooted combat and great team-play oriented skills. They have high expectations, and so do I.

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I only can agree with you. Coming from Guild Wars 2 and also some hours of BDO, the combat still has to go a long way until it can compete with how those games feel. Not being able to move during almost everything is currently my biggest issue I have with the combat. On some (very very very few and powerful) skills it does make sense to add a movement block which is very punishing - but for the most part I feel like being not able to move hurts the game more than it adds.

I have to be honest, if this stays I feel like the combat will kill the game for me (since that is such a huge part of it). I just can not go back to rooted combat coming from those games.

 

I have to say, I feel like this too. And I think a lot of the people that are waiting for this game will say the same thing as us. I said in another thread that the combat is a major pillar in this game and I wasn't joking. Everyone I know is watching this game closely and awaiting the end result of what they do with combat. These are people that have played GW2 and other action combat games without rooted combat and great team-play oriented skills. They have high expectations, and so do I.

 

As far as GW2 is concerned, I agree that solo and small scale combat felt pretty good in that game. Same as ESO. But I really wouldn't want mass scale combat to be the same as it was in those games. It all boiled down to blob vs blob AoE fights with ridiculous amount of burst damage and over the top healing. With every single game mechanic encouraging stacking/zerging/whatever you wanna call it. Can't speak for BDO though, as unfortunaly I could never play it due to their stupid IP locks. But yea, personally for me, the more mobility, the better. Agreed. I just don't want the same underlying mechanics GW2 has ^^ 


 

 

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As far as GW2 is concerned, I agree that solo and small scale combat felt pretty good in that game. Same as ESO. But I really wouldn't want mass scale combat to be the same as it was in those games. It all boiled down to blob vs blob AoE fights with ridiculous amount of burst damage and over the top healing. With every single game mechanic encouraging stacking/zerging/whatever you wanna call it. Can't speak for BDO though, as unfortunaly I could never play it due to their stupid IP locks. But yea, personally for me, the more mobility, the better. Agreed. I just don't want the same underlying mechanics GW2 has ^^ 

 

All that GW2 needed to fix blobbing was player collision and no AoE target cap.


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All that GW2 needed to fix blobbing was player collision and no AoE target cap.

The Target Cap was also because of the Server load. In large scale fights they came close to crashing even with the cap on.

And collision they didn't do because casuals don't like to be griefed by some dudes blocking exits and entrances with their bodies.

Sadly the game and their vision didn't allow them to do those things that would have fixed many problems.

 

As far as GW2 is concerned, I agree that solo and small scale combat felt pretty good in that game. Same as ESO. But I really wouldn't want mass scale combat to be the same as it was in those games. It all boiled down to blob vs blob AoE fights with ridiculous amount of burst damage and over the top healing. With every single game mechanic encouraging stacking/zerging/whatever you wanna call it. Can't speak for BDO though, as unfortunaly I could never play it due to their stupid IP locks. But yea, personally for me, the more mobility, the better. Agreed. I just don't want the same underlying mechanics GW2 has ^^ 

 

 

Yeah I only meant to relate to GW2 because of the movement. Not the overall combat. I have to say that (because of balancing) even the small scale fights where not really that convincing (and I say that regardless of my 3k pvp tourneys and the 50+k WvW kills I had).
In BDO also only the movement. Having only a few skills and no diversity hurt the game for me.
Edited by Inasyah

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,,...You get killed over and over again, that doesn't mean the game is unbalanced - it means that You are a bad player" -JTC

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Another reason why friendly fire is supportive of collision, griever protection.

 

Proper treachery needs immediate response.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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Personally, I'm just hoping anti-zerg mechanics work well in this game. I'm all for the occassional blob warfare, but I'm more in between the 8-16 man fights we used to have in Dark Age. Even  running 3-4 people and being able to disrupt an army  was possible in that game, but in games nowadays,,, blobs win.

 

I'd much  rather see 5 groups of 16 people scattered across the map, mobile and with purpose figthing another 5 groups of 16 people all  at the same time, than 80 vs. 80 in one area.

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Personally, I'm just hoping anti-zerg mechanics work well in this game. I'm all for the occassional blob warfare, but I'm more in between the 8-16 man fights we used to have in Dark Age. Even  running 3-4 people and being able to disrupt an army  was possible in that game, but in games nowadays,,, blobs win.

 

I'd much  rather see 5 groups of 16 people scattered across the map, mobile and with purpose figthing another 5 groups of 16 people all  at the same time, than 80 vs. 80 in one area.

With well designed worlds with resource areas, choke points and key defence structures you may well get more tactical warfare. But usually it's numbers that win it's just a question of where you put those numbers.


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