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Verot

Combat: I've been spoiled by BDO

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With well designed worlds with resource areas, choke points and key defence structures you may well get more tactical warfare. But usually it's numbers that win it's just a question of where you put those numbers.

 

Well  designed worlds and choke points can only  take you so far.  BDO has a  very  well  designed world  with great terrain,  but no anti-zerg mechanics.  Class design helps this way more than the world  alone. DaoC had great class design that supported small and large scale battles  (mainly CC and speed classes). It's just too bad WoW gave everything  to every class and  ruined character designs for mmos, since everyone tried to copy  their  model. I'm loving the idea of some spells with lingering AoE effects that jump from enemy  to enemy.

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The higher the skill-ceiling the less numbers determine the outcome.

 

Most of our time spent in combat will not be during big massive sieges, those happen less frequently than small to middle scale combat. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I'm hoping. Seen way  too many games where megaguilds/alliances just zerg down areas over and over and without numbers they can't be beat.

I mean I am optimistic otherwise i wouldnt  have pledged, but still the past has made me cautious in my expectations as well.

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I'm hoping. Seen way  too many games where megaguilds/alliances just zerg down areas over and over and without numbers they can't be beat.

I mean I am optimistic otherwise i wouldnt  have pledged, but still the past has made me cautious in my expectations as well.

This is exactly why they must get action combat right, and make sure the game has a high enough skill-ceiling to where a smaller force that is much more skilled has a decent chance vs a larger force that is much less skilled.

 

I understand why you would be cautious, most mmorpgs have not tackled large scale pvp very well and zerging often ends up being quite effective. 

 

All we can do is share our feedback and hope ACE in their wisdom and experience can create a game that allows skill to shine over simplistic tactics like zerging. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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This is exactly why they must get action combat right, and make sure the game has a high enough skill-ceiling to where a smaller force that is much more skilled has a decent chance vs a larger force that is much less skilled.

 

I understand why you would be cautious, most mmorpgs have not tackled large scale pvp very well and zerging often ends up being quite effective. 

 

All we can do is share our feedback and hope ACE in their wisdom and experience can create a game that allows skill to shine over simplistic tactics like zerging. 

 

I kinda agree with your sentiment on a high skill ceiling but I'm not sure if you mean invidividual skill or team skill.  I dont think making a class with a high skill ceiling addresses zergs,rather it's good for 1v1's and 2v2's; but, making classes that require a team to function in a highly skilled manner does.  So all in all , to me it comes down to mobility, defined roles, Crowd Control, and an environment that promotes travel and multiple targets to attack at once.

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I kinda agree with your sentiment on a high skill ceiling but I'm not sure if you mean invidividual skill or team skill.  I dont think making a class with a high skill ceiling addresses zergs,rather it's good for 1v1's and 2v2's; but, making classes that require a team to function in a highly skilled manner does.  So all in all , to me it comes down to mobility, defined roles, Crowd Control, and an environment that promotes travel and multiple targets to attack at once.

The more individual skill each class requires the more you can do with it in a team based environment.  It all trickles down to help empower skill > zerg. 

 

If for example to reach maximum effectiveness on a healer all you had to press was 2 different buttons every 10 seconds, that would be pretty low skill-ceiling, and a zerg could easily utilize such a feature because it would be easy to find players that could do that and reach maximum effectiveness for what that healer brings to the table.

 

Neither does he.

This user is upset. 

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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The more individual skill each class requires the more you can do with it in a team based environment.  It all trickles down to help empower skill > zerg. 

 

If for example to reach maximum effectiveness on a healer all you had to press was 2 different buttons every 10 seconds, that would be pretty low skill-ceiling, and a zerg could easily utilize such a feature because it would be easy to find players that could do that and reach maximum effectiveness for what that healer brings to the table.

 

This user is upset. 

 

Yes and No.

 

In Daoc, healingg wasn't  altogether tough in a zerg environment. Utilizing mainly 4 skills most often. Heal, Group heal, Insta, Group Insta. Now in a small battle with an 8v8 --  There was a lot more a healer needed to bring to  the table with skills and  actions.   What broke a zerg was the CC and mobility.

 

So in small fights--- more individual skill ceiling is definitely needed. In a smaller force vs. zergs---CC, mobility, and better decision making.   The problem lies, in making classes with definable roles and giving them the skills needed to address those larger zergs.

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Yes and No.

 

In Daoc, healingg wasn't  altogether tough in a zerg environment. Utilizing mainly 4 skills most often. Heal, Group heal, Insta, Group Insta. Now in a small battle with an 8v8 --  There was a lot more a healer needed to bring to  the table with skills and  actions.   What broke a zerg was the CC and mobility.

 

So in small fights--- more individual skill ceiling is definitely needed. In a smaller force vs. zergs---CC, mobility, and better decision making.   The problem lies, in making classes with definable roles and giving them the skills needed to address those larger zergs.

The easier you make it to play classes to their max potential (lower skill-ceiling) the more effective you make a zerg.  If classes have a high individual skill-ceiling, the zerg will not maximize its potential properly because not everyone in a zerg is capable of playing at a high level.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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The easier you make it to play classes to their max potential (lower skill-ceiling) the more effective you make a zerg.  If classes have a high individual skill-ceiling, the zerg will not maximize its potential properly because not everyone in a zerg is capable of playing at a high level.

 

I think  you're  missing the point.  It doesn't matter how easy  or how difficult the class is (skill-ceiling),, if they don't have the tools in  their kit to deal with  a  zerg it doesnt matter.

 

Case in  point. 1 caster vs 5 archers,, if he doesn't have a way  to CC and kite the archers he will die. Doesn't matter how difficult he, or the archers are to play, because basically  even with 1 or  2 skills the archers will just poke him down.  Now  if we imagine giving that caster an AoE mez.  (1 skill)  he at  least has a tool,under the right circumstances to fight a larger force)  I wouldn't call the addition of one skill  a High ceiling.

 

That being said I want classes that are easy enough for  the average person to play  and  have fun, but with a high enough of a ceiling that rewards people who learn the ins and outs  of that class.  (balancing act I know)

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I think  you're  missing the point.  It doesn't matter how easy  or how difficult the class is (skill-ceiling),, if they don't have the tools in  their kit to deal with  a  zerg it doesnt matter.

 

Case in  point. 1 caster vs 5 archers,, if he doesn't have a way  to CC and kite the archers he will die. Doesn't matter how difficult he, or the archers are to play, because basically  even with 1 or  2 skills the archers will just poke him down.  Now  if we imagine giving that caster an AoE mez.  (1 skill)  he at  least has a tool,under the right circumstances to fight a larger force)  I wouldn't call the addition of one skill  a High ceiling.

 

That being said I want classes that are easy enough for  the average person to play  and  have fun, but with a high enough of a ceiling that rewards people who learn the ins and outs  of that class.  (balancing act I know)

Player skill is the ultimate tool, making player skill matter removes power from the zerg.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Player  skill  is limited by the  tools the player has to work with.  Don't care how  skilled you are with an axe, saw, rifle, scissors, or a  knife.  A  hammer is still  the  best tool for hammering a  nail and the one guy that has one, will do  a  better job than you hammering those nails, even with those other skills  you have.

 

Not sure if you  really  don't  understand, are  just  that egotistical, or just trolling  at this  point. Good luck to you.

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Player  skill  is limited by the  tools the player has to work with.  Don't care how  skilled you are with an axe, saw, rifle, scissors, or a  knife.  A  hammer is still  the  best tool for hammering a  nail and the one guy that has one, will do  a  better job than you hammering those nails, even with those other skills  you have.

 

Not sure if you  really  don't  understand, are  just  that egotistical, or just trolling  at this  point. Good luck to you.

Lol... what if you make every one of those things take lots of skill, more skill than the average person in a zerg has? :Light bulb:


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Lol... what if you make every one of those things take lots of skill, more skill than the average person in a zerg has? :Light bulb:

 

This is why  I think you're  trolling.  It doesnt  take  much skill  to  learn  to  use  a hammer, or  an  axe, or to push  1-2-3  on your keyboard. It doesnt take much  skill to  land an aoe.  It doesnt take much  skill  to  stand back and pling arrows. 

 

So maybe you  should define what your idea of what this "skill"  is.  Even if you  want to  say an aiming reticle takes skill,,,  when  it's 100  vs 30,, there is enough  dumbluck that enough  people will land their shots to  mow down the 30.

How exactly  do  you  make pushing the 1 button   "harder"

 

Exactly  What player skill is it your saying can  burn down a zerg without the tools in a characters kit to do so. Define it please.

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This is why  I think you're  trolling.  It doesnt  take  much skill  to  learn  to  use  a hammer, or  an  axe, or to push  1-2-3  on your keyboard. It doesnt take much  skill to  land an aoe.  It doesnt take much  skill  to  stand back and pling arrows. 

 

So maybe you  should define what your idea of what this "skill"  is.  Even if you  want to  say an aiming reticle takes skill,,,  when  it's 100  vs 30,, there is enough  dumbluck that enough  people will land their shots to  mow down the 30.

How exactly  do  you  make pushing the 1 button   "harder"

 

Exactly  What player skill is it your saying can  burn down a zerg without the tools in a characters kit to do so. Define it please.

I'd like you to go play a game called smite.  You will see that even with an extremely limited skillbar, there is a wide variation in player skill and the difference in player skill shows up greatly in game. 

 

Is there enough dumb luck to mow down 30?  What if the people aren't utilizing their combos correctly because it requires player skill to land multiple parts of it in sequence?  Maybe then their skills are less effective and they aren't mowing them down because they aren't getting to the juicy parts of combos?  What if the group of 100 has a really hard time avoiding damage while also aiming compared to the group of 30 that has more skill and can effortless scoot and shoot?  etc etc


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I'd like you to go play a game called smite.  You will see that even with an extremely limited skillbar, there is a wide variation in player skill and the difference in player skill shows up greatly in game. 

 

Is there enough dumb luck to mow down 30?  What if the people aren't utilizing their combos correctly because it requires player skill to land multiple parts of it in sequence?  Maybe then their skills are less effective and they aren't mowing them down because they aren't getting to the juicy parts of combos?  What if the group of 100 has a really hard time avoiding damage while also aiming compared to the group of 30 that has more skill and can effortless scoot and shoot?  etc etc

 

I played Smite since Beta and actually was on one of the teams in the very  first player run tourney  that was streamed.  Don't oversell  the "difficulty" of Smite.

It's  not  really  that difficult.   And there are tiers of Gods when it comes to competitive play who  are good and those who  aren't.  Hence the programming (character design/toolkit) which  trumps the player skill  you  so vehemently spout off about.

The only  reason I stopped playing was the  community  changed after beta  and got toxic. It lost the community  that wanted to  build a game to greatness and the influx of every  kid who  thought he was a  great moba  player infested it.,We had one player on  our team  who  ruined  the  chemistry so  we all  quit except for one who went to coach a team that made last  years qualifying round but lost. Considering we are using the 30 vs 100 or less than 1/3 ,, it would be the equivalent of 2v6 in  smite. Which no  matter how skilled you  are, unless you're going  up  the most unskilled and mentally  deficient  players, you shouldn't win.

 

As for  your landing combos,,, 6 abilities hitting one player in Smite will kill them.. One Agni Meteor, One Crit from Xbalanque auto, One bellyflop  from Bacchus, one crit from  Artemis, one auto from Ao Kuang, and just for sh**s and giggles, one spin from Thor. That is the scenario of a zerg hitting a small group.  NO combos needed.  Just a stacking  of  random  damage from single abilities.

 

Also to  further my  point,,, Smite  HAS  CROWD CONTROL.which allows  you  to handle the 2v4 skirmishes in lanes or jungle, take the crowd control out and you've got a sloppy  mess.

Edited by Orinturi

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I played Smite since Beta and actually was on one of the teams in the very  first player run tourney  that was streamed.  Don't oversell  the "difficulty" of Smite.

It's  not  really  that difficult.   And there are tiers of Gods when it comes to competitive play who  are good and those who  aren't.  Hence the programming (character design/toolkit) which  trumps the player skill  you  so vehemently spout off about.

The only  reason I stopped playing was the  community  changed after beta  and got toxic. It lost the community  that wanted to  build a game to greatness and the influx of every  kid who  thought he was a  great moba  player infested it.,We had one player on  our team  who  ruined  the  chemistry so  we all  quit except for one who went to coach a team that made last  years qualifying round but lost. Considering we are using the 30 vs 100 or less than 1/3 ,, it would be the equivalent of 2v6 in  smite. Which no  matter how skilled you  are, unless you're going  up  the most unskilled and mentally  deficient  players, you shouldn't win.

 

As for  your landing combos,,, 6 abilities hitting one player in Smite will kill them.. One Agni Meteor, One Crit from Xbalanque auto, One bellyflop  from Bacchus, one crit from  Artemis, one auto from Ao Kuang, and just for sh**s and giggles, one spin from Thor. That is the scenario of a zerg hitting a small group.  NO combos needed.  Just a stacking  of  random  damage from single abilities.

 

Also to  further my  point,,, Smite  HAS  CROWD CONTROL.which allows  you  to handle the 2v4 skirmishes in lanes or jungle, take the crowd control out and you've got a sloppy  mess.

Seems like, like many gamers, you perhaps got phased out of the game by a younger more aggressive crowd?

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Seems like, like many gamers, you perhaps got phased out of the game by a younger more aggressive crowd?

 

Way  to change  the subject  since your argument is moot at this point. But no, I  didn't get phased out, My  team broke up. Wasn't as much fun and didnt make sense playing after that, because I like TEAM  mechanics  and fights.

 

 I  still solo League (full of  a younger aggressive crowd) and  play BDO.   I may  fire up Smite again at some point, but not today. The only games I enjoy are  pvp  games and  I  love beating on  the younger crowd  that sees the small picture of  their "player skill" as the major or only  determining reason  of why they  won or lost a match/fight.  Much  like yourself.

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Way  to change  the subject  since your argument is moot at this point. But no, I  didn't get phased out, My  team broke up. Wasn't as much fun and didnt make sense playing after that, because I like TEAM  mechanics  and fights.

 

 I  still solo League (full of  a younger aggressive crowd) and  play BDO.   I may  fire up Smite again at some point, but not today. The only games I enjoy are  pvp  games and  I  love beating on  the younger crowd  that sees the small picture of  their "player skill" as the major or only  determining reason  of why they  won or lost a match/fight.  Much  like yourself.

I didn't really change the subject, your posting just seems to be getting quite hostile for no reason.

 

I think you need more well-rounded pvp experiences.  I suggested smite because it has that kind of action combat feel, but if you want to see a higher level of player skill and team mechanics and fights I suggest maybe trying to get to a high level of skill and experiencing a more competitive environment like dota2/LoL/CSGO.  These games don't really have that action combat design but I think they might be good for someone like you to get a better lay of the land on what player skill actually is and how easy to learn hard to master is a great formula that pretty much makes it so average players are rendered completely ineffective vs great players. 

 

Create a high enough skill-ceiling and zergs aren't very effective.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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it really sounds like if there was only extremely great awesomely skilled players and bad players.

i agree, that if there are only those two types, where the one knows how to play their class and the other is not even able to use its combos if there are combos... then, player skill can make a big difference.

In most games, there are bad players, average players, good players and very good players, where from average on everyone knows their skills and what they do (and if most skills and combos are so complicated, that most players dont understand them, its not a high skill-ceiling, its a bad game).

As long as most players know their skills, there is no way, that higher playerskills win without enough tools to use them against a much bigger crowd.

And you may repeat your elitism as often as you want, its still wrong. the best players are not always the best players in all types of gameplay and the best players do not always win.

Edited by Gromschlog

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