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Verot

Combat: I've been spoiled by BDO

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It's pretty easy to keep a discussion going when you use common sense. 

 

Or just talk in circles, whichever comes first. I find it fun at times.

 

While it's nice that you have an "anyone can be a winner" view, it doesn't make it so.

 

Someone can't will themselves to be "better" than someone else nor practice practice and make it happen. With that logic, someone that is better already can do the same and always stay ahead, endless loop. Or they could decide to be the little guy and lose? My logic box doesn't work with that.

 

You gloss over the difference between a mmo and an eSport and all that comes with them.

 

CF already has competition and allows players to use their skill so gold star to the team.

 

To get to the "competitive" "good pvp game" that you want, most likely ACE would need to hire you and put you in charge. Good luck.

 

The super duper skilled either have to work with what is available or avoid the game, just like any other. Why they would play CF instead of bringing home the reward cash from other games that they clearly are the best at is beyond me. Guess CF is their down time? 

 

You can say individual skill is all that matters, but as you can't give an example of that actually being true within the same genre/context, seems meaningless.

 

I can say that numbers are all that matter and point to every open world pvp game ever without too much worry of being shown I'm terribly wrong.

 

I'd rather team dynamics/strat/skill be just as important as numbers, but they usually win.

 

If ACE decides to let someone mash buttons like a maniac and wipe out an entire army, hopefully they have other jobs lined up.

 

What you want, competition/skill, already exists. If you want something that caters to you specific wants and wishes, unlikely you'll find any game as they are designed with many, not the few, in mind.

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Or just talk in circles, whichever comes first. I find it fun at times.

 

While it's nice that you have an "anyone can be a winner" view, it doesn't make it so.

 

Where did you get that I think anyone can be a winner?  I definitely think many people are quite limited in their potential and will never be good.  Just like I'll never play in the NBA because in the realm of basketball I just can not be that good. 

 

Someone can't will themselves to be "better" than someone else nor practice practice and make it happen. With that logic, someone that is better already can do the same and always stay ahead, endless loop. Or they could decide to be the little guy and lose? My logic box doesn't work with that.

 

The whole point of pvp games is to see what you are made of, if people are afraid to see where they rank amongst other gamers, why are they playing pvp games?

 

You gloss over the difference between a mmo and an eSport and all that comes with them.

 

CF already has competition and allows players to use their skill so gold star to the team.

 

Current skill-ceiling isn't very high yet tbh.

 

To get to the "competitive" "good pvp game" that you want, most likely ACE would need to hire you and put you in charge. Good luck.

 

Nope, they just need to be cognizant of what most modern pvp games are doing. 

 

The super duper skilled either have to work with what is available or avoid the game, just like any other. Why they would play CF instead of bringing home the reward cash from other games that they clearly are the best at is beyond me. Guess CF is their down time? 

 

Because esports are a job, people still like to game for fun. 

 

You can say individual skill is all that matters, but as you can't give an example of that actually being true within the same genre/context, seems meaningless.

 

Skill determines all at top level of pretty much every genre now.

 

I can say that numbers are all that matter and point to every open world pvp game ever without too much worry of being shown I'm terribly wrong.

 

Not really as a matter of fact most games have technical limitations to where they don't really scale to the point where numbers could defeat a top pvp guild. 

 

I'd rather team dynamics/strat/skill be just as important as numbers, but they usually win.

 

Yea cause the games often don't emphasize player skill

 

If ACE decides to let someone mash buttons like a maniac and wipe out an entire army, hopefully they have other jobs lined up.

 

Player skill isn't only about mashing buttons, but that is one aspect of it, but it's funny how afraid some people seem of mechanical skill.  Anyway we've seen plenty of high skill-ceiling games doing fine, crowfall would too if it embraces high skilled combat.

 

What you want, competition/skill, already exists. If you want something that caters to you specific wants and wishes, unlikely you'll find any game as they are designed with many, not the few, in mind.

 

This game will either have skillful pvp or not, if it doesn't it simply fails.  I'd like an mmorpg that isn't afraid to make player skill matter.  I hope ACE can improve their combat to make this so.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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This game will either have skillful pvp or not, if it doesn't it simply fails.  I'd like an mmorpg that isn't afraid to make player skill matter.  I hope ACE can improve their combat to make this so.

 

Good luck with that. I hope they can improve combat enough for me to even bother logging in again.

 

Player skill doesn't nor has it really mattered much in any pvp mmo that I've played and none have failed. Those that ended early or did worse than expected had other issues that took center stage.

 

This conversation makes me think of Jon Snow being suffocating. The little engine that could, couldn't.

Edited by APE

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When all is said and done, if combat is convoluted to create a higher skill cap, then I think you will lose more people than you attract.  It would have to be expertly designed to make it work well.  It's kind of like raiding--in other games there is very vocal minority that hollers for it constantly to be this or that (more challenge, more options, more reward), but in the end very few people actually do it.  Wildstar learned the hard way that very challenging PvE is not welcomed by the a lot of gamers.  I think that the same could be said for PvP if mechanics are stretched too far to inflate a skill cap.  Complicated dose not necessarily equal fun for most.    


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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They really are unlikely to make combat convoluted for a higher skill-ceiling.  I mean the game as it is now is many pegs below the standard for modern pvp games.  We're not looking for Quake the MMORPG here, we're looking for something that at least requires as much skill as the industry norm of something like WoW or LoL.  You know, give us something that is at least equal or better to what most gamers are experiencing these days. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Close, but no. I'm only here to remind everyone to avoid personal attacks. And to share your tea.

I know!, a personal admonishment is terrible! But bigoted disrespect for the interests and motivations of others is totes okay, even when it comes in the form of derailing any subject with the same myopic agenda.

 

Another cup? :)


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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They really are unlikely to make combat convoluted for a higher skill-ceiling.  I mean the game as it is now is many pegs below the standard for modern pvp games.  We're not looking for Quake the MMORPG here, we're looking for something that at least requires as much skill as the industry norm of something like WoW or LoL.  You know, give us something that is at least equal or better to what most gamers are experiencing these days. 

 

VN is MadCuzNoTab targeting.

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They really are unlikely to make combat convoluted for a higher skill-ceiling.  I mean the game as it is now is many pegs below the standard for modern pvp games.  We're not looking for Quake the MMORPG here, we're looking for something that at least requires as much skill as the industry norm of something like WoW or LoL.  You know, give us something that is at least equal or better to what most gamers are experiencing these days. 

That sounds super consistent with the idea that the devs consider "action combat" the "heart of" the game.

 

Make up your mind VN. Is action combat the heart of the game's design or is it just kind of meh?

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That sounds super consistent with the idea that the devs consider "action combat" the "heart of" the game.

 

Make up your mind VN. Is action combat the heart of the game's design or is it just kind of meh?

Oh let me spell it out for you a little better since you seem to not be understanding it.

 

Action combat is the most important feature in crowfall, currently the combat is not in a launch ready state. 

 

Easy enough to follow?


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Oh let me spell it out for you a little better since you seem to not be understanding it.

 

Action combat is the most important feature in crowfall, currently the combat is not in a launch ready state. 

 

Easy enough to follow?

Sure.

 

But when you said this:

 

They really are unlikely to make combat convoluted for a higher skill-ceiling.

there was a defeated air to your post that seemed fairly clear that you don't actually expect the devs to change the combat to whatever you think they really intend for it to be. Maybe you meant to say something like: "I fully expect the devs to change combat to raise the skill-ceiling." Who knows.

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Sure.

 

But when you said this:

there was a defeated air to your post that seemed fairly clear that you don't actually expect the devs to change the combat to whatever you think they really intend for it to be. Maybe you meant to say something like: "I fully expect the devs to change combat to raise the skill-ceiling." Who knows.

Do you understand what the word convoluted entails in that sentence?  It means it is unlikely that they would choose to put combat in a convoluted state for a higher skill-ceiling.

 

I know you are desperately looking for contradictions in the things I say, but guess what, there are none. 

 

Better to read what I say for what it means, instead of imagining it meaning something else and imagining some sort of "defeated air" in how I say it.  LOL

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Do you understand what the word convoluted entails in that sentence?  It means it is unlikely that they would choose to put combat in a convoluted state for a higher skill-ceiling.

 

I know you are desperately looking for contradictions in the things I say, but guess what, there are none. 

 

Better to read what I say for what it means, instead of imagining it meaning something else and imagining some sort of "defeated air" in how I say it.  LOL

I read what you said. It didn't make a lot of sense in the context of your prior posts to me. I do appreciate the clarification.

 

You think the "action combat" (which you see as the "heart of the game") is only meh currently and that the devs do not plan to make the combat more complex / complicated in order to increase the "skill-ceiling" (as you interpret that term). Nonetheless you believe the devs will do something, (which something you don't identify) and presumably something very simple and not complex at all in order to increase the "skill-ceiling."

 

That about right?

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I read what you said. It didn't make a lot of sense in the context of your prior posts to me. I do appreciate the clarification.

 

You think the "action combat" (which you see as the "heart of the game") is only meh currently and that the devs do not plan to make the combat more complex / complicated in order to increase the "skill-ceiling" (as you interpret that term). Nonetheless you believe the devs will do something, (which something you don't identify) and presumably something very simple and not complex at all in order to increase the "skill-ceiling."

 

That about right?

But it does make a lot of sense in response to the poster above it.  That is the context.

 

No I do not think they plan to make it more convoluted, convolution is not the same as complexity. 

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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But it does make a lot of sense in response to the poster above it.  That is the context.

 

No I do not think they plan to make it more convoluted, convolution is not the same as complexity. 

That's the thing. The guy you were responding to used complicated and convoluted interchangeably:

 

When all is said and done, if combat is convoluted to create a higher skill cap, then I think you will lose more people than you attract.  It would have to be expertly designed to make it work well.  It's kind of like raiding--in other games there is very vocal minority that hollers for it constantly to be this or that (more challenge, more options, more reward), but in the end very few people actually do it.  Wildstar learned the hard way that very challenging PvE is not welcomed by the a lot of gamers.  I think that the same could be said for PvP if mechanics are stretched too far to inflate a skill cap.  Complicated dose not necessarily equal fun for most.

So in the context of the conversation you were having with that tester, yes, convolution and complexity were intended to convey the same idea. Moreover, that idea was specifically that making the game more complex raises the "skill-ceiling." You responded in the negative (the devs won't make the game more complex) while opinion that the combat was not in a good place currently.

 

So do you think the devs intend to make the "action combat" considerably more complex or not?

Edited by coolwaters

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That's the thing. The guy you were responding to used complicated and convoluted interchangeably:

So in the context of the conversation you were having with that tester, yes, convolution and complexity were intended to convey the same idea. Moreover, that idea was specifically that making the game more complex raises the "skill-ceiling." You responded in the negative (the devs won't make the game more complex) while opinion that the combat was not in a good place currently.

 

So do you think the devs intend to make the "action combat" considerably more complex or not?

Nope, right now you are trying to desperately find something to make your arguments valid but it simply doesn't work here.  In the context of his post I am clearly addressing the concept of making the combat convoluted to create a higher skill-ceiling.  Which I convey as an unlikely scenario.  Something convoluted can be complicated or complex, but not all things that are complex or complicated are convoluted. 

 

I responded very clearly with what I responded, I never used the word complex, I used the word convoluted.  There's really no denying that the post is there and stands on its own and the meaning is very evident for anyone that understands what convoluted means along with what kind of connotation it has.

 

Edit:  Also to further clarify, the user did not use complicated and convoluted interchangeably.  He actually didn't use the word "complicated" at all in his post... So I don't know why you are imagining that he did.  Nor does his post imply that complexity and convoluted are interchangeable, they can be 2 separate thoughts and concepts. 

 

Just like I said in the original post, I doubt they will make the combat more convoluted for the sake of a higher skill-ceiling.  I am not using the word complex or complicated, I am using the word convoluted.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Nope, right now you are trying to desperately find something to make your arguments valid but it simply doesn't work here.  In the context of his post I am clearly addressing the concept of making the combat convoluted to create a higher skill-ceiling.  Which I convey as an unlikely scenario.  Something convoluted can be complicated or complex, but not all things that are complex or complicated are convoluted. 

 

I responded very clearly with what I responded, I never used the word complex, I used the word convoluted.  There's really no denying that the post is there and stands on its own and the meaning is very evident for anyone that understands what convoluted means along with what kind of connotation it has.

 

Edit:  Also to further clarify, the user did not use complicated and convoluted interchangeably.  He actually didn't use the word "complicated" at all in his post... So I don't know why you are imagining that he did.  Nor does his post imply that complexity and convoluted are interchangeable, they can be 2 separate thoughts and concepts. 

 

Just like I said in the original post, I doubt they will make the combat more convoluted for the sake of a higher skill-ceiling.  I am not using the word complex or complicated, I am using the word convoluted.

Ya. I get what you say you meant.

 

My question is whether you believe the devs will make the combat more complex in order to raise the "skill-ceiling." That's one of those yes or no questions.

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Complicated dose not necessarily equal fun for most.    

 

He actually didn't use the word "complicated" at all in his post... So I don't know why you are imagining that he did. 

 

That imagination though.

Edited by Jah

IhhQKY6.gif

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Ya. I get what you say you meant.

 

My question is whether you believe the devs will make the combat more complex in order to raise the "skill-ceiling." That's one of those yes or no questions.

 

I believe the devs will not make the combat more convoluted to raise the skill-ceiling. 

That imagination though.

I know, it's crazy how he keeps imagining things. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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So you're avoiding my question? That's interesting. Speaks volumes to the basis for your position(s) here on the boards.

I'm not avoiding it, it just has no relevance based on what I actually stated and what you have attempted to misconstrue me as saying.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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