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Deloria

"Default Vessel" main character - for RP/ continuity purposes. Maybe in EK?

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I think it is strange to be working so hard to imagine counterexamples to RP when RP boils down almost exclusively to imagination.

 

Yes it is different.  Yes you can, and likely will, wear different archetypes.  You don't have a single appearance.  Maybe you have split personalities and change your personality with your appearance, with hints of the original.  Maybe you slowly alter your personality the more and more you wear different archetypes.  Your argument essentially is "true role-play requires single appearance."  That's a pretty narrow definition of RP, but if you insist on it, maybe take up any of the numerous suggestions about how you'll be able to likely play (some of) the game in a single appearance.

 

As to your OP: default vessel main character for rp continuity purposes maybe in EK is already an option.  Use it.

 

RP effort boils down to how much time Im going to invest in my character. The hours Im going to spend writing and acting out her narrative.

 

I've spent many 100s of 1000s of hours roleplaying and speaking from that perspective I can tell you it is my very humble opinion that throwaway personas dont really encourage Roleplay. 

 

Again,, speaking from experience, An RP character is a HUGE investment of time and effort - much of which goes towards customization and tailoring that character to an infinitesimal level of detail. My poiint, right back at the start, is that that gets harder in a universe where the uniqueness of characters is stripped away.

 

Our crow form is generic. Our vessels forms are meat puppets... imho it is all very interesting, but not conducive to heavy RP investment.

 

Any one who is really into RP will understand what I mean I hope.

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You are still limiting your creativity to predetermined definitions of what it means to be generic, to be a "character," and the effect these have on the extent to which you can write a unique backstory.  

 

You clearly don't think you can RP in this game.  RPing under your definition is clearly important to you.  Perhaps this game is not for you.


Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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Many people have voiced their concerns regarding the vessels system and I admittedly hate it because I do think it is an easy, contrived, anti-immersive, attacks the fundamentals of an RPG, blatant and trendy hero shooter/EVE copy, etc., etc. (could go on and on).  However, some people like it, for RP purposes in fact!  Yet, I don't think you can argue that it wasn't invented to to use an EVE-like mechanic, which was not part of the original design, and then was painted with the lore brush. 

 

However, a material form to run around in apart from our vessels doesn't really fix this--ghosts are just as good (i.e., bad) IMO.  Overall, the vessel system is a done deal, for many it is crap, and there is still a ton to like about CF.     

Edited by Regulus

The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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You are still limiting your creativity to predetermined definitions of what it means to be generic, to be a "character," and the effect these have on the extent to which you can write a unique backstory.  

 

You clearly don't think you can RP in this game.  RPing under your definition is clearly important to you.  Perhaps this game is not for you.

Lots of assertions here. 

 

"You are still limiting your creativity to predetermined definitions of what it means to be generic, to be a "character," and the effect these have on the extent to which you can write a unique backstory.  "

 

This is not a discussion on "to be creative or not to be creative." Choosing to RP in the constraint of the vessel system is not a choice between being less or more creative.. its that it is less interesting for me, and o ther roleplayers, to put thousands of hours into a throwaway meat puppet system.

 

To use an analogy: Roleplaying as a violin is probably equally creative and even more challenging than roleplaying as a violinist... but I'm not less creative for picking to be the violinist.. Simply that I see it as a richer form of RP.. In the same way the Vessels system doesnt particularly describe a more or less creative manner to RP.. just one that is less emotionally investing. 

 

"You clearly don't think you can RP in this game.  RPing under your definition is clearly important to you.  Perhaps this game is not for you."

 

My level of investment begs to differ.

Of course I think I can RP here.. I just wish for a bit of help to make the RP more rewarding. You seem to be missing my point over and over.

 

I do want to immerse myself in the world. If RP is going to succeed it must accept the true nature of the universe around it.

The world is a meat puppet world for the sake of flexibity in character customization more than any real lore decision.

This results in meat puppets being tradeable, hackable, stealable etc, and diminishes their uniqueness.

The "unique part": the soul is actually a very generic crow form that might as well be a sheet of paper with stats on it.

 

This undermines the exclusive nature of personal roleplay.. <-- either you agree with this or you dont. Many Roleplayers agree with me.

I, like many others, don't want to RP a meat puppet in an meat puppet world if I can help it.

 

I want to spend the money and time to develop my own unique character.I think the fix is to let people RP their crow and imbue it with unique characteristics.

We can do this by defaulting to a prime archetype, until such time as we choose to permanently replace it with another (which can also be an option: "replace my default".

 

In this way no-one loses. It is simply an intermediate stage of being between generic crow form and off-the-shelf vessel form. It doesnt interfere with hardcore players and their desire to body swap.. It facilitiates Roleplayers who like the idea of fast switching vessels.. but it also allows for Heavy roleplayers to commit to a specific character and emotionally invest in them.

 

That emotional investment part is what its all about. Either you accept that this is important to some people or you don't. If you do then you'll understand why the suggestion is being made. If you don't then this discussion will go around in circles forever, but please don't just come back with the "yeah but that's not so important - its just as easy with vessels ." because it truly is important for a lot of roleplayers and the vessel system will most likely not fix this issue.

Edited by Deloria

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Many people have voiced their concerns regarding the vessels system and I admittedly hate it because I do think it is an easy, contrived, anti-immersive, attacks the fundamentals of an RPG, blatant and trendy hero shooter/EVE copy, etc., etc. (could go on and on).  However, some people like it, for RP purposes in fact!  Yet, I don't think you can argue that it wasn't invented to to use an EVE-like mechanic, which was not part of the original design, and then was painted with the lore brush. 

 

However, a material form to run around in apart from our vessels doesn't really fix this--ghosts are just as good (i.e., bad) IMO.  Overall, the vessel system is a done deal, for many it is crap, and there is still a ton to like about CF.     

Thankyou for your perspective.

 

I think the comparison to Eve is actually really important...

 

In Eve the crow is the capsuleer... and thats the part that gets the unique character and the customisation at a personal level.. Its where the vanity items are aimed at. CF has decided so far to make the capsuleer equivalent  crow-aspect entirely generic and unoriginal: everybody will be the same. Its this part Im suggesting that gets a smalll change.

 

What we get now in CF is the ability to define our RP in vessel form.. the equivilent of Eve Spaceships... but this is too shallow for immersive RP in a world where vessels are tradeable commodities. To ignore this "vessels as commoditites" fact is to lose the immersion in the universe, but to try to RP in it kills the very personal nature of characterization which is a very important part of character driven RP.. this is the dilemma which I think many people posting here don't understand.

 

In eve you don't Rp the spaceship cos its probably going to get smashed up, crash or burn.. you might add a few decals to it. Eventually you'll upgrade it to something better and go through an upgrade path..its an item. It stays an item.. You might get some personal attachemnt to your spaceship but theres no way youre going to start heavy monthlong RP progressions on it in forums or in chat or ingame... It might be worth a short story or two.

 

CF Vessels are the same right now... so to RP in the context of CF is to lose personal attachment to the vessel.. and treat it simply as a vehicle for the crow... that generic shadow form that has no real unique characterization potential or customization capability.

 

I think the fix I suggested is a way to work around this.. by making the crow prime archetype the true embodiment of our character. It should be replaceable if tyhats what players wish.. but for roleplayers we then have an identifiable and relate-able persona to deliver our RP from. A vessel in itself is not enough, I feel.

Edited by Deloria

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I have been a member of a dwarf-only guild for nigh 15 years now, but you're right I probably just don't get it.  

 

You want a single persona to attach with and create a detailed self-story.  You believe that crow/vessel system is analogous (in the RP sense) to capsuleer/ship. You argue that customization of the crow is, therefore, critical and should be fixed and highly customizable, in order to give you the singular persona you desire to use as the nucleus for your many hours of RPing.  

 

A few primary RP-flavored differences: your ship was never alive and never had a personality, your vessel was and did (possibly had multiple); every vessel you and anyone else has ever inhabited or will inhabit has a persona, story, and history; thralls will inhabit vessels (most likely as NPCs using a vessel) and might be RPed as your other personalities or friends/foes; 

 

I suggested two early ideas that you haven't commented on at all. I'll add more and then bow out of the thread.

 

(1) Split personas.

(2) Transforming personas based on frequency.

(3) Single persona attached to original form (pre-crow).

(4) Combating personas depending on original, most common, or most powerful/aggressive.

(5) Limiting yourself to a single archetype.

(6) Limiting yourself to a single archetype (true form) in your EK.  Preserving that archetype.

(7) Having conversations between your original persona and the persona of the vessel you inhabit.

(8) Having one persona for each of the archetypes you want to play, and taking up that persona and their story based on your vessel.

 

Good luck!  Welcome to the forums.


Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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I have been a member of a dwarf-only guild for nigh 15 years now, but you're right I probably just don't get it.  

 

 

If you mean to imply that you being a member of a Dwarf guild gives you "RP cred" honestly its not needed - lets assume everyone here has loads of experience in RP. It saves from people getting too condescending towards one another. Otherwise I'm honestly not sure what your dwarf guild has to do with RP. I get that they like Dwarves - I dont see the RP on the site? Unless you consider a reference to dwarf tossing heavy RP? I can join a liverpool supporters guild. It doesn't mean I play football for Liverpool or even play football at all. Maybe I'm married to a footballer? 

Are you married to a dwarf perhaps? :P

 

"You want.. You believe.. You argue..."

 

Yes.. hence my suggestion in the "suggestions forum." 

 

A few primary RP-flavored differences: your ship was never alive and never had a personality, your vessel was and did (possibly had multiple); every vessel you and anyone else has ever inhabited or will inhabit has a persona, story, and history; thralls will inhabit vessels (most likely as NPCs using a vessel) and might be RPed as your other personalities or friends/foes; 

 

Yes. This is understood and rather obvious. The comparison to Eve is to demonstrate the shallow and unrelateable nature of the vessel system. The vessel system, exactly as you describe it, is not particularly relateable. Vessels are lowest common denominator npc/character shells - to be dragged around and formed and upgraded and stolen and bought and sold and enslaved and experimented upon. That is the reality of the universe we are roleplaying in. Our view of them, top down, as immortal beings blessed by the gods is simply: they are meat for the fire. 

 

From the perspective of Crow RP: Vessel RP is shallow and limited. This is a root cause issue - and as I said either you understand this and agreee with it or you dont. Obviously you dont.

 

 

All of your subsequent recommendations are dealing with symptomatic fixes rather than dealing with the root cause issue i describe. Vessels are throwaway meat puppets... Its why I'm not really dealing with them.. they are entirely below the point of concern Im trying to raise.

 

OF COURSE we can RP as vessels. Its simply a matter of typing words to fit circumstance..

 

But as a roleplayer that finds motivation in unique characterizations and character development narratives, the vessel system, as defined both as a game mechanic and a lore element does not offer a long term satisfactory way to make me want to commit to a character...

 

I cannot play *Galadriel*, or a deep and unique character equivalent, in a world where she is simply another meat puppet that can be split up and sold for parts.. Noone who values their character in an rp context can. Noone will play *Gandalf*. Noone will play *John Snow*. Not really. They might keep a gandalf aspect in the cupboard... but thats not the same thing. Roleplay won't really come from it.

 

Whether I stay forever in an EK or venture out to other realms, the reality of the universe is that it is a meat puppet universe. There is no place for the tale of heroes when all heroes are simply fodder for a legion of generic ghostly crows to sink their talons into...

 

Either you get this or you dont..but all of this:

 

I suggested two early ideas that you haven't commented on at all. I'll add more and then bow out of the thread.

(1) Split personas. 

(2) Transforming personas based on frequency.

(3) Single persona attached to original form (pre-crow).

(4) Combating personas depending on original, most common, or most powerful/aggressive.

(5) Limiting yourself to a single archetype.

(6) Limiting yourself to a single archetype (true form) in your EK.  Preserving that archetype.

(7) Having conversations between your original persona and the persona of the vessel you inhabit.

(8) Having one persona for each of the archetypes you want to play, and taking up that persona and their story based on your vessel.

 

These are all extreme limitations to combat symptoms of the root cause issue, which is more easily solved EVERYWHERE ELSE in EVERY SUCCESSFUL RP SYSTEM EVER INVENTED by simply allowing players to define easily identifable non-transient and uniquely customisable characters that dont degrade, dont get scavenged for parts, dont get bought and sold and dont get worn like skins by your enemies.

How hard is that to understand?

I'm sorry that you still don't get it, but thank you for your welcome :)

Edited by Deloria

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To use a LotR example, Gandalf the Grey dies and then comes back to life as Gandalf the White. That is the perfect fantasy precedent for this crow/vessel system. I don't see it as a limitation on roleplaying in any way. You're still Gandalf, and your role in the story and journey in the world is more important than the color of robe you are wearing at any time.

 

 

There are some character attachment issues that are different than roleplaying issues. Those have more to do with how we are used to playing an RPG - where we progress a character from initial creation through gameplay choices and mechanics like gaining XP. In CF, that has shifted from the character level to the account (crow) level. So it does require a shift in thinking that some people may not be as comfortable with.

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It's kind of silly the whole "it shifted to the account level" deal.  The only thing you have at an account level are some skill trees and a spectral crow... There is simply no way people get as attached to that as a traditional rpg character that they build from the ground up that becomes the visual representation of all their work, as a single identity.

 

Now we will just change skins all willy nilly if we want to play the game as efficiently as possible.  Very little attachment, very little commitment, very little choice mattering. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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These are all extreme limitations to combat symptoms of the root cause issue, which is more easily solved EVERYWHERE ELSE in EVERY SUCCESSFUL RP SYSTEM EVER INVENTED by simply allowing players to define easily identifable non-transient and uniquely customisable characters that dont degrade, dont get scavenged for parts, dont get bought and sold and dont get worn like skins by your enemies.

How hard is that to understand?

I'm sorry that you still don't get it, but thank you for your welcome :)

 

How hard is it to understand you can easily play in the EK and never have to worry about losing a vessel or the vessel decaying. By RPing in EKs every issue you bring about the crow is null and void because as long as you stay in the EKs your "Main character" cant die and you never have to deal with the crow at all.

 

Also you could do gods reach with no looting/harvesting of vessels with a very small amount of decay and, as i stated earlier, use the resource gathering to maintain your vessel as "gathering medical supplies to heal yourself from past battles" and such because any person who trudges through war is gonna come back weaker for wear until they patch themselves up a bit.

 

Also im pretty sure ACE stated that you can save templates for each character you create. Imma use miraluna's Gandalf example. So lets say you make a Caster and name it Gandalf the Grey (lets say frostweaver just as an example), you can make it look like an old man and play till your hearts content. If by some miracle glitch you lose that vessel in the EKs (or you are bad and let it fully decay in gods reach) then you can grab another frostweaver, during your initial grab of it it will allow you to customize it (or pick an existing template you saved). So you can use your Gandalf template and make the exact same character with the exact same skill set and skills trained and just make the reasoning the same as something like WOW where you die and death walk back to your body to begin anew, or you could go with the next option of making Gandalf the white (a different promotion of frostweaver than Grey was, or make it a confessor and use your new found power to burn the world) and roleplay as a reborn version of your character.

 

If you cant get attached to a character just because you have the "OPTION" to discard your vessels, then your RP skills are lacking. The only way you will be forced to discard the "Meat Sacks" (as you call them) is if your, again, mentally ill and think your gonna be RPing in the dregs, or if overall you suck at the game itself and cant hold your own on Gods Reach (the easiest ring). And you can avoid all that by playing in the EKs and that "OPTION" of losing your vessels becomes and obsolete worry at that point

 

ACE is never forcing you to constantly swap out your "Meat sacks" your decisions to play in rings that allow that to happen and your inability to protect yourself if you do is will what lead to your "Body Hopping" issue that you think is a problem.

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This system is ripped straight from EVE.  CCP has acknowledged there is an attachment problem between a player and his "pod" or any particular ship.  Ships (or CF vessels) are disposable tools.  The whole walking in stations drama (besides developing tech for CCP's failed World of Darkness MMO) was to give players a greater sense of attachment with their avatar/capsuleer. 

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To use a LotR example, Gandalf the Grey dies and then comes back to life as Gandalf the White. That is the perfect fantasy precedent for this crow/vessel system. I don't see it as a limitation on roleplaying in any way. You're still Gandalf, and your role in the story and journey in the world is more important than the color of robe you are wearing at any time.

 

 

There are some character attachment issues that are different than roleplaying issues. Those have more to do with how we are used to playing an RPG - where we progress a character from initial creation through gameplay choices and mechanics like gaining XP. In CF, that has shifted from the character level to the account (crow) level. So it does require a shift in thinking that some people may not be as comfortable with.

the Lotr example I gave earlier is Gandalf the grey dies and comes back as Gandalf the balrog because he can loot the vessel of his vanquished foe. Is that still Gandalf? And what is really the point of being Gandalf the grey in a universe where Balrog vessels are marketable commodities (or DIY crafting kits) All the primary characters get to do this.. and most likely they are trading each other for parts... Boromir is being worn by Gimli as well cos.. he likes the horn.

 

This is he reality of the lore.. and we will have to fit to it.. Its just a pity that it kills personalized characterisation at a deep level.

 

You're exactly right on the character attachment issues - I think that's what I'm trying to describe and compensate for, because the way it works in CF now goes directly against the way that works for Roleplayers in every other working system: The ability to define a uniquely personal character at a high level. It is absolutely an RP issue when there is no incentive to go to that level of personal commitment on a character because youre just wearing it like a puppet, like everyone else does.

Edited by Deloria

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How hard is it to understand you can easily play in the EK...

 

EK is the equivilent of tavern RP.. for a lot of roleplayers its just not interesting to RP in the safe zones. Its not really part of the discussion. My character cant get her RP experiences if all she does is stick to the safe parts. In other games it wouldn't be an issue where I wish to RP. Why am I being limited in CF?

 

Also you could do gods reach...

 

See above.

 

Also im pretty sure ACE stated that you can save templates for each character you create. Imma use miraluna's Gandalf example. So lets say you make a Caster and name it Gandalf the Grey...

 

As I answered Mira. .. I have no problem with Gandalf the grey.. or Gandalf the WHite.. I have a problem with Gandalf the Balrog.. And Galadriel the Gimli.. and John Snow the Galadriel... Basically the lore tells us body swapping is happening and there is no spiritual representation of you at a a character level other than a generic spirit form. >My simple suggestion was to make Gandalf still be Gandalf in his spiritual incarnation...exactly as LOTR and exactly as Mira described.

Im glad you agree with my suggestion <.<

 

If you cant get attached to a character just because you have the "OPTION" to discard your vessels, then your RP skills are lacking. The only way you will be forced to discard the "Meat Sacks" (as you call them) is if your, again, mentally ill and think your gonna be RPing in the dregs, or if overall you suck at the game itself and cant hold your own on Gods Reach (the easiest ring). And you can avoid all that by playing in the EKs and that "OPTION" of losing your vessels becomes and obsolete worry at that point

 

I dont think you actually understand what RP is? You're calling me mental for wanting to play a game I bought and paid for, in a manner by which games have been played for 30 years (i.e: Roleplaying the hell out of it). RP isnt a handicap in a hardcore PvP zone.. its an addition to it. One that potentially carries penalties certainly but your insistence that people cant/shouldn't RP in a hardcore permadeath environment is silly. Of course there will be RP in the dregs. My RP skills would only be lacking if I couldn't RP all circumstances. Its just all beside the point...as stated repeatedly in this thread, I really have less incentive to do heavy RP in a system that isn't built for it. The issue isn't where I RP the issue is how we are being made to RP: Without any real close attachment to characters... this is a great shame.

 

ACE is never forcing you to constantly swap out your "Meat sacks" your decisions to play in rings that allow that to happen and your inability to protect yourself if you do is will what lead to your "Body Hopping" issue that you think is a problem.

 

Not "forcing" exactly..but encouraging by making it an aspect of the lore that crows are hopping in and out of meat sacks on a regular basis and can store and customize and steal them. My decision to immerse myself in the world they have created means I have to accept that this happens, not avoid it by hiding in the EK or pretend it doesn't exist... 

This will NOT be LOTR because in LOTR very few of the heroes would have meat lockers full of vessels.. In CF Everybody will, so vessels will be more like skins to wear. 

Result: RP will only be skin deep.

 

I hope this helps explain my perspective. Thanks for your inputs.

Edited by Deloria

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