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Deloria

Shadowbane... please explain it to me like I'm 5.

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I don't mean anything rude towards you, at all.

 

That said, portions of your posts in this thread come off to me as insulting towards those you direct the thread to. That's how I read it. No hard feelings at all. I'm sure you're a great guy. In fact, if you like RP I suspect you'd have loved a few of the SB servers back in the day.

 

The fact that VN has attempted to adopt you doesn't help my view I'm sure. :P

sincerely Im sorry if I came across as insulting you.. I do tend to get cheeky though its true.

 

So far I found VN pretty rational. It's just he's a "last worder" - and there are a few of you guys in here. People who have thought a lot about a lot of stuff and have a lot to say. I don't think he's always right.. No-one can be except Jesus amirite?

 

BThat's not of itself a bad thing. Look at this thread for example.. 10 pages in and there's a really good discussion going on and - sure it gets heated but - so far its totally been worth the cost of petrol. New players will see it and learn stuff. If we can all chillax a bit they will see a passionate community engaged in frank discussions about interesting stuff. Awesome.

We just have to keep it a wee bit civil. Just don't mention the war.


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Disclaimer: My RP with you might become a public story: https://soundcloud.com/shiv-mahon

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This thread can be summed up as a clash between these groups in no particular order. I personally am a 2 with a touch of 1.

 

1. The MOBA-Arena bro's

2. The open PvP mass warfare emergent game play bro's

3. The Role Play bro's

 

The MOBA-Arena bro's here mostly haven't experienced the emergent game play at a serious level a game like EvE supports.

The open PvP emergent bro's mostly have no interest in Arena combat and player epeen ratings.

The Role Play bro's just get screwed in every PvP game.

 

/Thread? lol :)

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Well I hope CF doesn't turn into anything like a MOBA based game. Fixed duration campaigns on large worlds yes but battleground arenas no.

 

And IMO RP and open world PvP can coexist, especially with the ideas surrounding the EKs etc.

 

CF can accommodate both 2 and 3 groups but not 1.

Edited by Count_Dirkoff

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Just because someone wants a higher skill-ceiling doesn't mean they are some arena bro.  MMORPGs don't HAVE to have a low skill-ceiling, it just so happens that some of the loudest people on these forums come from a game that had a really low skill-ceiling. 

 

If crowfall has a low skill-ceiling it will fail as a pvp game.  Not really a surprising concept, you look at how games succeed in this day and age and it's always the same formula, easy to learn hard to master. 

 

Honestly, in my mind when I see people who fear the game having a high skill-ceiling it just screams the very opposite of PvPer to me. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Just because someone wants a higher skill-ceiling doesn't mean they are some arena bro.  MMORPGs don't HAVE to have a low skill-ceiling, it just so happens that some of the loudest people on these forums come from a game that had a really low skill-ceiling. 

 

If crowfall has a low skill-ceiling it will fail as a pvp game.  Not really a surprising concept, you look at how games succeed in this day and age and it's always the same formula, easy to learn hard to master. 

 

Honestly, in my mind when I see people who fear the game having a high skill-ceiling it just screams the very opposite of PvPer to me. 

 

There is a certain level of depth that needs to be achieved to have enjoyable combat, everyone agrees with that. Expecting a game designed around larger scale combat with 100's involved to play like a 5v5 arena battle is completely unrealistic. The skill set changes from twitch based to push based, knowing when and where to push as a coordinated mob, fewer skills used but coordinated over a larger group of people (blob). This in itself is a skill, especially for commanders. The difference between the two is one of information. The visual and auditory feedback you receive in a 1v1 or 3v3 relatively speaking is more specific and acute which allows a more reactionary and presumptive play style, or skilled as you say. The reality is that your individual skill is diminished greatly the larger the battle is, this is where the blob mindset push based skill set takes over. This is where great commanders progressively become more and more important. This is why great Fleet Commanders are internet famous in the EvE universe.

 

Can they both exist? Sure they can. I don't think any sane person would say playing 5v5 in WoW was low skill ceiling. The variety of tools available to each class greatly extended the skill ceiling. It just wasn't as twitch based as an FPS. It was more cerebral requiring a greater understanding of more skills. Knowing what to do and when. Nobody would argue that a great General is less skilled than a grunt. It's just a different skill set, and that skill set changes gradually up the line from grunt to general.

 

MOBA's are the big thing these days. I don't see anyone complaining about the skill ceiling of MOBA's that have what, 4 or 5 skills per class to chose from? In Crowfall the bare minimum we have is 7 skills and FPS based aiming. Combine that with 10 v 10.... 50 v 50.... and beyond. If you still have problems with skill ceiling get specific and contribute on a class by class basis. Focus that passion! :)

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http://zandagamedesign.blogspot.com/2010/02/skill-ceilings-and-floors.html

 

But again, descriptions of "Skill Ceilings", both low (floor) and high (ceiling), refer to game mechanics that regulate the application of Player Skill, it's not Player Skill itself, per se.

 

This is a subtle distinction, but critical to understand in the conversation: 

  • It's how game mechanics are calibrated to establish entry skill boundary and a cap/max possible boundary by players.
  • Do I have that right?
  • It's important to understand this because there are external technology factors that may play a role in that calibration, nothing to do with satisfying human desires for skill-display.

Players then engage in driving the car, and their game experience is influenced by feedback from interacting with those mechanics.  Thus VN's allusion to Low Skill Floor entry is good because it encourages new players to get into the game and feel motivated (feeling of accomplishment and fun early on), but with a High Skill Ceiling to reach for there's longevity in game play, progression and improvement.

 

 ACE already has set in place in their shop, or at least has some kind of dart on the wall where they want this to fall.  This is where my answer to you comes VN, from the earlier post where you ask "Where did I ever say that?". 

  •  It doesn't matter what the Shadowbane crew says.  They could, for the sake of argument, be completely wrong yet,. . .
  • They should still post their ideas and opinions here.  ALL OF THEM.  Period.  Discussion closed.  You never squelch IDEAS in The Think Tank. 
  • Ideas come from EVERYWHERE.  You don't know where there's a good one, or a piece of one that ends up being something great on it's own.
  • This . . . is . . . where . . . you trust ACE to do the job they took on the responsibility to do.  If you DID trust them, you'd not be arguing with the Shadowbane folks in the manner you are, because you'd understand . . . ACE is making the game.
  • Put up your ideas, disagree if you want to.  But try and make things clearer, instead of ad-hominem.

There is no clear measuring stick for this topic.  Because, if I understand things properly, it's game mechanics calibration with factors in play for a dev house such as PING and using a Nominal/Median PC model to guesstimate against, not full blown top of the line rig.  They are going to have to pick some kind of nominal Ping rate to guesstimate against (I would think, am I off here?). 

 

Am I thinking about this correctly, including external platform/technology factors potentially at play?

 

You can bet where ever ACE has that dart on the wall, it IS going to fall somewhere in the middle of a yardstick who's ends are completely blurred out.

 

Maybe try and construct your personal list of games you've played with YOUR rating on a scale of 1 - 10 for Floor and Ceiling levels.  that might provide some context for discussion.

 

Myself, I'd find that interesting, and something I could actually bite into and understand a little better.

Edited by Bramble

“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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There is a certain level of depth that needs to be achieved to have enjoyable combat, everyone agrees with that. Expecting a game designed around larger scale combat with 100's involved to play like a 5v5 arena battle is completely unrealistic. The skill set changes from twitch based to push based, knowing when and where to push as a coordinated mob, fewer skills used but coordinated over a larger group of people (blob). This in itself is a skill, especially for commanders. The difference between the two is one of information. The visual and auditory feedback you receive in a 1v1 or 3v3 relatively speaking is more specific and acute which allows a more reactionary and presumptive play style, or skilled as you say. The reality is that your individual skill is diminished greatly the larger the battle is, this is where the blob mindset push based skill set takes over. This is where great commanders progressively become more and more important. This is why great Fleet Commanders are internet famous in the EvE universe.

 

The skill set most certainly does not change.  It's only the average level of skill per player that changes because 100 players generally aren't as good as the 5 best players.  The people who generally act like large scale pvp in video games is some mystical thing beyond the 5v5 arena realm are simply people that weren't good at small scale pvp so they don't really understand that small scale pvp only hones every aspect of coordination to a much more fine point than large scale ever does.   Your individual effectiveness may diminish the more people that are involved, but the higher the skill-ceiling a game has, the less true that becomes.  Fleet Commanders are Eve famous in eve, they aren't internet famous.  You wanna know who is internet famous?  Top CSGO and LoL players. 

 

Can they both exist? Sure they can. I don't think any sane person would say playing 5v5 in WoW was low skill ceiling. The variety of tools available to each class greatly extended the skill ceiling. It just wasn't as twitch based as an FPS. It was more cerebral requiring a greater understanding of more skills. Knowing what to do and when. Nobody would argue that a great General is less skilled than a grunt. It's just a different skill set, and that skill set changes gradually up the line from grunt to general.

 

Yep but you know who would say it is low skill-ceiling?  A lot of people that couldn't do well in it and want to glorify some past game that they could do well in that had a lower skill-ceiling.  The general vs grunt thing doesn't really matter, some generals are great fighters, some grunts can be great leaders.

 

MOBA's are the big thing these days. I don't see anyone complaining about the skill ceiling of MOBA's that have what, 4 or 5 skills per class to chose from? In Crowfall the bare minimum we have is 7 skills and FPS based aiming. Combine that with 10 v 10.... 50 v 50.... and beyond. If you still have problems with skill ceiling get specific and contribute on a class by class basis. Focus that passion! :)

 

Stick around these forums and see what people perceive as skill and you will start to see some pretty ridiculous stereotypes. 

 

 

http://zandagamedesign.blogspot.com/2010/02/skill-ceilings-and-floors.html

 

But again, descriptions of "Skill Ceilings", both low (floor) and high (ceiling), refer to game mechanics that regulate the application of Player Skill, it's not Player Skill itself, per se.

 

This is a subtle distinction, but critical to understand in the conversation: 

  • It's how game mechanics are calibrated to establish entry skill boundary and a cap/max possible boundary by players.
  • Do I have that right?
  • It's important to understand this because there are external technology factors that may play a role in that calibration, nothing to do with satisfying human desires for skill-display.

Players then engage in driving the car, and their game experience is influenced by feedback from interacting with those mechanics.  Thus VN's allusion to Low Skill Floor entry is good because it encourages new players to get into the game and feel motivated (feeling of accomplishment and fun early on), but with a High Skill Ceiling to reach for there's longevity in game play, progression and improvement.

 

 ACE already has set in place in their shop, or at least has some kind of dart on the wall where they want this to fall.  This is where my answer to you comes VN, from the earlier post where you ask "Where did I ever say that?". 

  •  It doesn't matter what the Shadowbane crew says.  They could, for the sake of argument, be completely wrong yet,. . .
  • They should still post their ideas and opinions here.  ALL OF THEM.  Period.  Discussion closed.  You never squelch IDEAS in The Think Tank. 
  • Ideas come from EVERYWHERE.  You don't know where there's a good one, or a piece of one that ends up being something great on it's own.
  • This . . . is . . . where . . . you trust ACE to do the job they took on the responsibility to do.  If you DID trust them, you'd not be arguing with the Shadowbane folks in the manner you are, because you'd understand . . . ACE is making the game.
  • Put up your ideas, disagree if you want to.  But try and make things clearer, instead of ad-hominem.

There is no clear measuring stick for this topic.  Because, if I understand things properly, it's game mechanics calibration with factors in play for a dev house such as PING and using a Nominal/Median PC model to guesstimate against, not full blown top of the line rig.  They are going to have to pick some kind of nominal Ping rate to guesstimate against (I would think, am I off here?). 

 

Am I thinking about this correctly, including external platform/technology factors potentially at play?

 

You can bet where ever ACE has that dart on the wall, it IS going to fall somewhere in the middle of a yardstick who's ends are completely blurred out.

 

Maybe try and construct your personal list of games you've played with YOUR rating on a scale of 1 - 10 for Floor and Ceiling levels.  that might provide some context for discussion.

 

Myself, I'd find that interesting, and something I could actually bite into and understand a little better.

It's really simple to me, you need to look at a games skill-ceiling as a container for which players can pour their player skill into.  Large skill-ceiling means they have lots of room to pour lots of player skill, low skill-ceiling means they do not.  Low skill-ceiling games are dumbed down so that it's easy for most people regardless of how much player skill they have, to reach the skill-ceiling and be maximumly effective.  High skill-ceiling games have a ceiling that no one can actually reach which lets player skill fully shine and lets proper skill pyramids become defined. 

 

And yes it's unfortunate that shadowbane players still get riled up and resort to ad hominems. 

 

Still waiting for where I ever alluded to any concern about ACE just mindlessly accepting suggestions I disagree with. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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That actually explains a lot with regard to why you and I don't necessarily see eye to eye.

 

But I appreciate the calm back and forth.

Oddly the only people that have lost their calm in this thread are people trying to argue against the fact that ACE said combat is the most important aspect of the game.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Oddly the only people that have lost their calm in this thread are people trying to argue against the fact that ACE said combat is the most important aspect of the game.

 

I can't believe people are arguing about this. It is fact - end of.

 

Other aspects of the game (Crafting, Trading, Politics, EKs etc) may attract players and to them may be more important than the PvP combat but as far as the game designers have stated it is the PvP combat that is at the heart of the game. The amount of time and effort that is going into CF to make it the best Open World PvP strategy game demonstrates this.


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I can't believe people are arguing about this. It is fact - end of.

 

Other aspects of the game (Crafting, Trading, Politics, EKs etc) may attract players and to them may be more important than the PvP combat but as far as the game designers have stated it is the PvP combat that is at the heart of the game. The amount of time and effort that is going into CF to make it the best Open World PvP strategy game demonstrates this.

 

Nobody is arguing against that fact.

 

PvP combat is so fundamentally important to Crowfall that the game could not exist without it. As such, if PvP combat is not great, the game will fail.

 

Other things are fundamental as well. Politics, Economy, Territory, Fortifications, Destruction, Character Building. The list goes on. All are essential to Crowfall.

 

When people say something is "the heart of" something, that does not mean nothing else can be the heart of it as well.

 

Todd Coleman says "PvP combat is the heart of this game!"

 

Raph Coster says "the heart of Crowfall is the campaign worlds."

 

There is no contradiction there. Raph is not in denial. Both comments are valid as descriptions of Crowfall.

 

Someone else could come along and say "Glory, Wealth, and Power are the heart of the game" and that could be true as well.

Edited by Jah

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Nobody is arguing against that fact.

 

PvP combat is so fundamentally important to Crowfall that the game could not exist with out it. As such, if PvP combat is not great, the game will fail.

 

Other things are fundamental as well. Politics, Economy, Territory, Fortifications, Destruction, Character Building. The list goes on. All are essential to Crowfall.

 

When people say something is "the heart of" something, that does not mean nothing else is can be the heart of it as well.

 

Todd Coleman says "PvP combat is the heart of this game!"

 

Raph Coster says "the heart of Crowfall is the campaign worlds."

 

There is no contradiction there. Raph is not in denial.

 

Someone else could come along and say "Glory, Wealth, and Power are the heart of the game" and that could be true as well.

 

 

I agree there is no contradiction. Ralph Coster goes onto say "You can participate in relatively persistent, long, and large-scale PvP campaigns where multiple factions are fighting territory battles to control key strategic points, resources, and so on."


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I agree there is no contradiction. Ralph Coster goes onto say "You can participate in relatively persistent, long, and large-scale PvP campaigns where multiple factions are fighting territory battles to control key strategic points, resources, and so on."

 

Yep. And in one of the developer updates he also said:

 

The heart of the Crowfall design lies in the marriage of two game systems:

- A system for strategic territorial conquest, and

- A system for player-driven crafting and economics system


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Its all a matter of perspective and emphasis. CF is definitely a challenging mix of the tactical vs the strategic; PvP vs Logistics, combat vs crafting (and that will be good). People will take from it what they want but from the actual guy who had CF's vision (J. Todd Coleman) this quote:

 

Having a solid combat experience means we have a GREAT foundation on which we can build the rest of the game.The opposite is equally true: If the combat system sucks, then the rest of the game—campaigns, kingdoms, fealty trees, etc.—won't matter because no one will care.

Edited by Count_Dirkoff

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Having a solid combat experience means we have a GREAT foundation on which we can build the rest of the game.The opposite is equally true: If the combat system sucks, then the rest of the game—campaigns, kingdoms, fealty trees, etc.—won't matter because no one will care.

 

He is certainly right about that. I doubt anyone would disagree with that statement.

 

But does anyone suppose that combat is the only element that Crowfall can't afford to suck at?

 

I suspect that if the territorial conquest system sucks, or the crafting and economics system sucks, Crowfall would be in similar trouble.

Edited by Jah

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So anyway they have said repeatedly that combat is the most important aspect of the game, through all stages of development, up til the present.  This has not changed, this was said by JTC and Tblair, not a consultant like Raph Koster. 

 

Gotta learn to accept that someday...


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I can't believe people are arguing about this. It is fact - end of.

 

Other aspects of the game (Crafting, Trading, Politics, EKs etc) may attract players and to them may be more important than the PvP combat but as far as the game designers have stated it is the PvP combat that is at the heart of the game. The amount of time and effort that is going into CF to make it the best Open World PvP strategy game demonstrates this.

Nobody has argued that ...

 

PvP Combat IS the heart of the game.

 

"action combat" is not, never has been, and never will be the most important feature of this game.

 

No idea why folks have trouble reading that quote.

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Nobody has argued that ...

 

PvP Combat IS the heart of the game.

 

"action combat" is not, never has been, and never will be the most important feature of this game.

 

No idea why folks have trouble reading that quote.

Actually it always has been... and action combat IS the PvP combat...  They chose an action combat system for their pvp combat.  This is beyond contestation.  It's hilarious that people will try to downplay the significance of the combat in any way they can. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I think ACE should get rid of combat altogether.  Just crafting and city building.

 

I cannot wait until the next testing phase, so I can (1) spend less time on these forums and (2) be more interested when I do!

Edited by mctan

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Actually it always has been... and action combat IS the PvP combat...  They chose an action combat system for their pvp combat.  This is beyond contestation.  It's hilarious that people will try to downplay the significance of the combat in any way they can. 

 

And if they had chosen to use something other than action combat, then combat would still be the most important feature in Crowfall. The fact that they chose to use action combat is not relevant to whether or not combat is the most important feature in Crowfall. This fact does not downplay the significance of combat. I'm not even sure how you could even infer that it does. Nobody is arguing about whether combat is the most important feature in Crowfall, why do you keep trying to pretend that they are?

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