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Deloria

Shadowbane... please explain it to me like I'm 5.

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And if they had chosen to use something other than action combat, then combat would still be the most important feature in Crowfall. The fact that they chose to use action combat is not relevant to whether or not combat is the most important feature in Crowfall. This fact does not downplay the significance of combat. I'm not even sure how you could even infer that it does. Nobody is arguing about whether combat is the most important feature in Crowfall, why do you keep trying to pretend that they are?

Sorry but this is just a gross assumption to downplay the significance of action combat.  They chose action combat for a reason, and it seems like a lot of players from a certain background are sort of missing the point as to why.  Just gonna have to learn the hard way.

 

Actually many people were arguing whether combat was the most important feature... Just read the thread and you'll see plenty of it.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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If it's got to be binary the short answer is obviously this:

  • If this game was well done tab targeted combat with all of the siege and throne war elements most backers would be here
  • If this game was fantastic "action combat" of VN's own design without all of the siege and throne war elements very few backers would be here 

But it doesn't have to be binary. Both of these things are important to make CF as good as it can be.

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If it's got to be binary the short answer is obviously this:

  • If this game was well done tab targeted combat with all of the siege and throne war elements most backers would be here
  • If this game was fantastic "action combat" of VN's own design without all of the siege and throne war elements very few backers would be here 

But it doesn't have to be binary. Both of these things are important to make CF as good as it can be.

This logic is quite flawed. 

 

If the game was tab-target with "throne war elements" most of the players would not be here, it wouldn't be differing enough from a game like camelot unchained to stand on its own legs. 

 

If the game does action combat correctly and had mediocre siege and throne war elements it would still draw a huge amount of interest.  Just like those other sandbox pvp survival games have been doing for many years now. 

 

This once again just highlights how people from certain backgrounds don't really understand what is going on in the game scene right now and are projecting rose-tinted memories onto what they want CF to be.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Sorry but this is just a gross assumption to downplay the significance of action combat.  They chose action combat for a reason, and it seems like a lot of players from a certain background are sort of missing the point as to why.  Just gonna have to learn the hard way.

 

Actually many people were arguing whether combat was the most important feature... Just read the thread and you'll see plenty of it.

 

All I see is you repeatedly misunderstanding (or intentionally misinterpreting) what other people are saying about combat. Sorry to burst your bubble, but just because you quote and respond to someone with the phrase "nope you're wrong, combat is the most important feature in Crowfall" it does not actually mean the person you responded to was trying to say that combat is not the most important feature in Crowfall.

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All I see is you repeatedly misunderstanding (or intentionally misinterpreting) what other people are saying about combat. Sorry to burst your bubble, but just because you quote and respond to someone with the phrase "nope you're wrong, combat is the most important feature in Crowfall" it does not actually mean the person you responded to was trying to say that combat is not the most important feature in Crowfall.

Well read the thread and you can see what people are saying... I mean even on this very page you have people trying to downplay the significance of the action combat that they have chosen to go with, which makes up the most important feature of the game, which they have repeatedly said is the most important feature of the game. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Well read the thread and you can see what people are saying... I mean even on this very page you have people trying to downplay the significance of the action combat that they have chosen to go with, which makes up the most important feature of the game, which they have repeatedly said is the most important feature of the game. 

People have been sitting agreeing with you and you just keep trying to act like they are not. Can you even move with how big your ego is? Time for you to go on a diet.

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People have been sitting agreeing with you and you just keep trying to act like they are not. Can you even move with how big your ego is? Time for you to go on a diet.

Again, even on this very page you have people not only disagreeing with me, but misrepresenting my point of view.  Also it doesn't actually matter whether people agree with me or not, what matters is that they understand what ACE is conveying. 

 

It's like you can say all this weird biased rhetoric but it isn't actually matching up with what is going on, even on this very page. 

 

If ACE repeatedly tells you that combat is the most important feature in the game, and that they must get it right, and they've also chosen action combat for the game.  What does that tell you about their belief in action combat... if they've chosen it as their most important feature in the game?

 

You can pretend the game would be just as strong if it were tab-target, just like coolwaters literally said on this very page, but the reality of it is action combat has a higher potential skill-ceiling, which makes it better for player vs player. 

 

If you accept that combat is the most important feature of the game, like ACE has repeatedly said... then why are you trying to argue with me?

 

Hell you don't even have to agree with ACE about how they view combat, but don't pretend they don't mean it when they say it over and over again consistently and constantly.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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This logic is quite flawed. 

 

If the game was tab-target with "throne war elements" most of the players would not be here, it wouldn't be differing enough from a game like camelot unchained to stand on its own legs. 

 

If the game does action combat correctly and had mediocre siege and throne war elements it would still draw a huge amount of interest.  Just like those other sandbox pvp survival games have been doing for many years now. 

 

This once again just highlights how people from certain backgrounds don't really understand what is going on in the game scene right now and are projecting rose-tinted memories onto what they want CF to be.

 

I don't believe Coolwaters' logic is flawed. Let me tell you about two MMORPGs, that I happen to like a lot, but don't really play anymore. Its been, probably two years since I last logged on either of them. But, I do remember that, the last time I played either game, the starter cities were practically ghost towns, even the most populated servers had ghost towns of starter cities. These games, DragonNest and Vindictus, had phenomenal action combat, in fact, you'd be hard pressed to find people who hated the combat of either these games. If these games had great action combat, why was no one playing it? The rest the games' features are pretty mediocre. 

 

If action combat is what gets people in the door, then the rest of the game is what gets people back out of the door. Crowfall's business model does not support people just checking the game out. If action combat is what gets people in the door, then the rest of the game is responsible to lock the door behind them! If the rest of the game is mediocre, then Crowfall is as good as dead even if they nail combat.

 

 

Sorry but this is just a gross assumption to downplay the significance of action combat.  They chose action combat for a reason, and it seems like a lot of players from a certain background are sort of missing the point as to why.  Just gonna have to learn the hard way.

 

Actually many people were arguing whether combat was the most important feature... Just read the thread and you'll see plenty of it.

 

I've read, and re-read, the thread. What you, Coolwaters, and Jah were arguing about was not whether combat was the most important feature, but whether action combat was the most important feature. Dirkoff went and found a quote from JTC that said that PvP combat was the most important feature. Action combat is just the means ACE is using to achieve that Player versus Player engagement. ACE could've just as easily chosen to have tab target or even turn-based combat. What they're trying to achieve is satisfying player versus player engagements. Again, action combat is just a means to that end.

 

 

Again, even on this very page you have people not only disagreeing with me, but misrepresenting my point of view.  Also it doesn't actually matter whether people agree with me or not, what matters is that they understand what ACE is conveying. 

 

It's like you can say all this weird biased rhetoric but it isn't actually matching up with what is going on, even on this very page. 

 

If ACE repeatedly tells you that combat is the most important feature in the game, and that they must get it right, and they've also chosen action combat for the game.  What does that tell you about their belief in action combat... if they've chosen it as their most important feature in the game?

 

You can pretend the game would be just as strong if it were tab-target, just like coolwaters literally said on this very page, but the reality of it is action combat has a higher potential skill-ceiling, which makes it better for player vs player. 

 

If you accept that combat is the most important feature of the game, like ACE has repeatedly said... then why are you trying to argue with me?

 

Hell you don't even have to agree with ACE about how they view combat, but don't pretend they don't mean it when they say it over and over again consistently and constantly.

 

1) Its hard to misrepresent someone when you directly quote them

 

2) I don't believe you'd disagree with me when I say that LoL and Dota2 have click to move combat like Shadowbane, but LoL and Dota2 are highly competitive. If they weren't the tournaments wouldn't have huge prize pools and generate thousands of views. Following your logic, LoL and Dota2 must have a pretty low skill ceiling since they're click to move. But, if they have such low skill ceilings, how are they highly competitive? Tab target combat can have high skill ceilings too, whether of not someone has tried to do that is the question.   

 

All I see is you repeatedly misunderstanding (or intentionally misinterpreting) what other people are saying about combat. 

 

And that's why I've given up trying to debate with VN.


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You Can't Be A Genius, If You Aren't The Slightest Bit Insane.

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Well one situation is about testing a game in development, the other is about a released game that lost almost all of its players due to being unplayable. 

 

Not really the same situation despite what some fans might try to make themselves believe. 

 

And Crowfall lost most of its testers due to being unplayable. It's the same situation despite what some fans might try to make themselves believe.

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I love reading that people would quit a video game because the forums were toxic. That's pretty pathetic. So, you think you can:

 

get ganked over and over

lose everything you farmed hours for in a few minutes

get your city camped

watch your city burn to the ground

experience terrible customer service

have lag ruin your day

hate the game due to bad design or coding

 

and still play the game? But yet TrolleyBoi69 calls you a non-factor cuck on the forums and you're going to quit?

 

I have over 10k posts on only two gaming forums in a multitude of games I play. Crappy games is why I don't play them anymore. Some of them I don't even bother with their forums or know they exist. Forum behavior doesn't decide what I play or don't play. Here, you'll find your coddling community. But it doesn't mean you're going to be coddled in game.

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And Crowfall lost most of its testers due to being unplayable. It's the same situation despite what some fans might try to make themselves believe.

Most of it's testers... it is pre-alpha and most players have not even been invited to test. You might be jumping the gun here a little considering that persistent world testing is coming soon and will allow us to start working further up through those skill ranks and see how it affects the relative power of the archetypes... then crafting... we are just getting started kid.

Edited by Frykka

6FUI4Mk.jpg

                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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I don't believe Coolwaters' logic is flawed. Let me tell you about two MMORPGs, that I happen to like a lot, but don't really play anymore. Its been, probably two years since I last logged on either of them. But, I do remember that, the last time I played either game, the starter cities were practically ghost towns, even the most populated servers had ghost towns of starter cities. These games, DragonNest and Vindictus, had phenomenal action combat, in fact, you'd be hard pressed to find people who hated the combat of either these games. If these games had great action combat, why was no one playing it? The rest the games' features are pretty mediocre. 

 

Well first off, neither of these games had a huge emphasis on pvp, and second off, neither of these games are true mmorpgs.  Next...

 

If action combat is what gets people in the door, then the rest of the game is what gets people back out of the door. Crowfall's business model does not support people just checking the game out. If action combat is what gets people in the door, then the rest of the game is responsible to lock the door behind them! If the rest of the game is mediocre, then Crowfall is as good as dead even if they nail combat.

 

All you need do is look to the sandbox survival genre to see what it takes to people playing...

 

 

 

I've read, and re-read, the thread. What you, Coolwaters, and Jah were arguing about was not whether combat was the most important feature, but whether action combat was the most important feature. Dirkoff went and found a quote from JTC that said that PvP combat was the most important feature. Action combat is just the means ACE is using to achieve that Player versus Player engagement. ACE could've just as easily chosen to have tab target or even turn-based combat. What they're trying to achieve is satisfying player versus player engagements. Again, action combat is just a means to that end.

 

Again even on this very page coolwater is arguing about what the most important feature really is.  Action combat isn't just a means to an end, it is the most important aspect of this game. 

 

 

 

1) Its hard to misrepresent someone when you directly quote them

 

Not really, since you can then go on to claim they believe something or represent a view that they don't... just like coolwaters did on this page.

 

2) I don't believe you'd disagree with me when I say that LoL and Dota2 have click to move combat like Shadowbane, but LoL and Dota2 are highly competitive. If they weren't the tournaments wouldn't have huge prize pools and generate thousands of views. Following your logic, LoL and Dota2 must have a pretty low skill ceiling since they're click to move. But, if they have such low skill ceilings, how are they highly competitive? Tab target combat can have high skill ceilings too, whether of not someone has tried to do that is the question.   

 

The click to move combat in mobas is completely different than how shadowbane works.  It's like comparing a ferrari to a tin can.

 

 

And that's why I've given up trying to debate with VN.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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And Crowfall lost most of its testers due to being unplayable. It's the same situation despite what some fans might try to make themselves believe.

Crowfall didn't really lose ALL of its testers.  It could have done a better job retaining more testers, but it is still early stage testing and it still gets people logging in to test.

 

It's ok lil buddy, the sky has not fallen yet.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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This logic is quite flawed.

 

If the game was tab-target with "throne war elements" most of the players would not be here, it wouldn't be differing enough from a game like camelot unchained to stand on its own legs.

 

If the game does action combat correctly and had mediocre siege and throne war elements it would still draw a huge amount of interest. Just like those other sandbox pvp survival games have been doing for many years now.

 

This once again just highlights how people from certain backgrounds don't really understand what is going on in the game scene right now and are projecting rose-tinted memories onto what they want CF to be.

I am so very sorry that you had the windows version of SB, the mac version had no sb.exe issues at launch... it sounds like you never even really played SB much past launch... too bad, it was epic in so many ways.

 

After Rise of Chaos things were far above playable and the resource mines created lots of small to medium scale clashes during the capture windows and filled the time between banes and rebuilding. Nothing rose-tinted about playing SB for all 6 years it actually lived or the 2 years that held sizeable populations on at least 4 of the origional servers... sure, it had issues but nothing like you imply. You make statements about a game you admit that you really never played, never fleshed out a solid end game build, or ran with a solid crew. As many have pointed out in this thread... this will not be a solo/duel skill game, balance will be on a large scale. Player skill will be in how well you do your job in a group, how well your group works with other groups within the guild and how well your guild works within an alliance... and little to do with your individual button mashing ability.

 

 

Be certain that individual skills will not tip a siege no matter how good you think your skills are. One thing SB did was humble players who boasted on the boards, another was to humble guilds who boasted on the boards. Why did we call it forumbane, because that is where all the politics and animosity was created, where petty and prideful players got thier guilds in deep and thier cities smashed. At least WE created something to fight over and we did fight, a lot, and with all kinds of builds that took more skill than you want to credit...

 

Fine, be a pessimist, just don't drag the SB crowd into your negativity. Shadowbane was epic because it got real, it got dirty, it got downright brutal if you weren't numb to dying, repairing and summoning back... if you weren't numb to losing cities... these things did not happen in WoW or Warhammer Online, or Age of Conan, or Aion, or Archeage.

 

Crowfall will be a niche market and it will succeed on the scale we expect because JTC started with a foundation that had fed our twisted souls, a need to crush... expect to be crushed the moment you step into the world.

Edited by Frykka

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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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I am so very sorry that you had the windows version of SB, the mac version had no sb.exe issues at launch... it sounds like you never even really played SB much past launch... too bad, it was epic in so many ways. After Rise of Chaos things were far above playable and the resource mines created lots of small to medium scale clashes during the capture windows and filled the time between banes and rebuilding. Nothing rose-tinted about playing SB for all 6 years it actually lived or the 2 years that held sizeable populations on at least 4 of the origional servers... sure, it had issues but nothing like you imply. You make statements about a game you admit that you really never played,never fleshed out a solid build, or ran with a solid crew. As many have pointed out in this thread... this will not be a solo/duel skill game, balance will be on a large scale. Player skill will be in how well you do you job in a group, how well your group works with other groups within the guild and how well you guild works within the alliance... be certain that individual skills will not tip a siege no matter how good you think your skills are. One thing SB did was humble players who boasted on the boards another was humble guilds who boasted on the boards. Why did we call it forumbane, because that is where all the politics and animosity was created, where petty and prideful players got thier guilds in deep and thier cities smashed. At least WE created something to fight over and we did fight, a lot.

Yea, most people didn't play it much past launch.  Most of them left because the game was so unplayable and the service got hacked so you weren't even really playing a secure game. 

 

I'm sorry but if SB was as great after most of the players left and had later decided to take any sort of skill, those players would have been able to find success in other more competitive games, but they haven't been able to.  I ran with the best crew, dominated the game, completely undefeated. 

 

This game won't be balanced on large scale combat, large scale combat is something that rarely occurs in mmos compared to small scale combat.  You spend 99% of your time fighting small scale combat. 

 

I think more than anything other games with high skill-ceilings should have humbled the SB players that often fail to contextualize where their small game triumphs compare to what really skilled games are actually doing in big competitive games.  Crowfall is going to be an awakening for people who are really not up to date on what modern games are about.

 

It's really simple, if something took great skill and you were great at it, you should be able to recreate success in similar activities, if you can't, then more likely than not it didn't take great skill.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I love reading that people would quit a video game because the forums were toxic. That's pretty pathetic. So, you think you can:

 

get ganked over and over

lose everything you farmed hours for in a few minutes

get your city camped

watch your city burn to the ground

experience terrible customer service

have lag ruin your day

hate the game due to bad design or coding

 

and still play the game? But yet TrolleyBoi69 calls you a non-factor cuck on the forums and you're going to quit?

 

I have over 10k posts on only two gaming forums in a multitude of games I play. Crappy games is why I don't play them anymore. Some of them I don't even bother with their forums or know they exist. Forum behavior doesn't decide what I play or don't play. Here, you'll find your coddling community. But it doesn't mean you're going to be coddled in game.

 

 

Yeah but its not 1993 - There are 100 different places a new player can go to for the social kick of hanging out with other gamers - so when they stumble into a place which is just filled with hate'n'spite they probably just gonna move on. 

 

And of course - that hate'n'spite - is all just heat from the game: Its competitive rivalry and smack talk. These guys have probably been playing together for years and years and don't really need much in the way of a filter when dealing with each other.. Its kind of a locker room vibe.

 

But if you're not on the team to begin with - or you're wondering if you should be.. it will tip the scale for you if all you see is a bunch of hollering raging kiddies spitting at each other. And no offense but a lot of forums just look like that. Those SB Emu forums did.

 

Am I curious in SB? ye sure - but am I curious enough to go in there and put up with that? No feckin way :) 

Life is too short.

 

And for a new game - that sort of thing would be game killing - cos most people wouldn't bother.

 

my 2 crows.


www.CrowfallRP.com


Disclaimer: My RP with you might become a public story: https://soundcloud.com/shiv-mahon

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"service got hacked so you weren't even really playing a secure game."

Like Crowfall it was a buy the box, play for life (of the servers) with no subscriptions, you said earlier that you didn't trust giving them a credit card because of security and yet we never had to do this. Later it went FtP, 2005... There were client side hacks of course and duping and gold farmers and all kinds of afk macro multiboxing keyclone nonsense... the industry was just learning the ropes in 2003.


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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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I like how OP asked : What's cool about Shadowbane?

 

And People are like :

 

ACTIOOOON COMBAT OR DIE

SKILL CELLING !!!11oneone!!

Would WORK with TURN BASED

COMBATTT MOST IMPORTANT

Other features most important !!!!!1111!

 

 

Tl ; dr  

Of course Action Combat is most important aspect of PVP game, no need for content at all.  Shadowbane(which btw was buggy crap) players

were never allowed play more then 1 game, and they are at Skill Floor now. Would turn into NPC-s again. 10/10

 

<burn....>

 

PS : Combat most important.

Edited by Naur

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Like Crowfall it was a buy the box, play for life (of the servers) with no subscriptions, you said earlier that you didn't trust giving them a credit card because of security and yet we never had to do this. Later it went FtP, 2005... There were client side hacks of course and duping and gold farmers and all kinds of afk macro multiboxing keyclone nonsense... the industry was just learning the ropes in 2003.

Uh no... shadowbane was sub based.

 

You had to give CC info even to get the free month when you bought the box.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Uh no... shadowbane was sub based.

 

you are correct... UBI charged 12.99... fookin long time ago.


6FUI4Mk.jpg

                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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