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Deloria

Shadowbane... please explain it to me like I'm 5.

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I find this thread fascinating because not only has it gone on for 13 pages, but it also keeps changing the point that is being argued.

 

I think that since we have seen combat testing in the Hunger Dome, we can assume that barring some really drastic changes, combat will be a similar form to what we have now. If we use that as a logical assumption then anyone that is currently commenting on the forums has tested it enough to stick around.

 

That means that if you are a Shadowbane fan and are still here then you at least accept the direction combat is going.

 

I think that VN is right that combat is important but..... I also think that it is ok for anybody that stuck through the bugginess of Shadowbane and were able to get enjoyment out of it.

 

At the end of the day video games are a form of entertainment and if you are able to enjoy the games you choose to play then good for you.

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I find this thread fascinating because not only has it gone on for 13 pages, but it also keeps changing the point that is being argued.

 

I think that since we have seen combat testing in the Hunger Dome, we can assume that barring some really drastic changes, combat will be a similar form to what we have now. If we use that as a logical assumption then anyone that is currently commenting on the forums has tested it enough to stick around.

 

That means that if you are a Shadowbane fan and are still here then you at least accept the direction combat is going.

 

I think that VN is right that combat is important but..... I also think that it is ok for anybody that stuck through the bugginess of Shadowbane and were able to get enjoyment out of it.

 

At the end of the day video games are a form of entertainment and if you are able to enjoy the games you choose to play then good for you.

That is VN for you. He sees that the thread is about SB or there is quite a few SB players in it and go in there just to raise hell.

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That means that if you are a Shadowbane fan and are still here then you at least accept the direction combat is going.

 

I think that VN is right that combat is important but..... I also think that it is ok for anybody that stuck through the bugginess of Shadowbane and were able to get enjoyment out of it.

 

 

Here's the thing, I'd bet most SB players actually prefer that ACE chose to use action combat as opposed to some other form of combat.  And I'm positive that very few if any former SB players want a combat system that is anywhere near what they had in SB.

 

I don't see anyone arguing whether or not combat is the most important aspect of the game to get right.  It's supper important because combat is basically connected to everything you do.  It just goes without saying that you want combat to be fun.  Some are arguing that the type of combat isn't the most important.. just that whatever type they choose is done well.  And some believe that if a different form of combat had been chosen that this game would still be able to succeed.  ACE choose action combat.  So it's not really wrong to say action combat is the most important part of this game.  But many believe that that no matter how good the combat is, if the other aspects of the game aren't done properly then the game will fail.  Believing that doesn't mean they don't think combat is the most important to get right.  And just because other aspects of the game are more important to some then the combat, doesn't mean they're disagreeing with ACE, saying combat is the most important.

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That is VN for you. He sees that the thread is about SB or there is quite a few SB players in it and go in there just to raise hell.

All I've done here is argue that combat is the most important feature to ACE, and show the OP what to expect when asking for opinions on SB and how it relates to crowfall. 

 

Here's the thing, I'd bet most SB players actually prefer that ACE chose to use action combat as opposed to some other form of combat.  And I'm positive that very few if any former SB players want a combat system that is anywhere near what they had in SB.

 

I don't see anyone arguing whether or not combat is the most important aspect of the game to get right.  It's supper important because combat is basically connected to everything you do.  It just goes without saying that you want combat to be fun.  Some are arguing that the type of combat isn't the most important.. just that whatever type they choose is done well.  And some believe that if a different form of combat had been chosen that this game would still be able to succeed.  ACE choose action combat.  So it's not really wrong to say action combat is the most important part of this game.  But many believe that that no matter how good the combat is, if the other aspects of the game aren't done properly then the game will fail.  Believing that doesn't mean they don't think combat is the most important to get right.  And just because other aspects of the game are more important to some then the combat, doesn't mean they're disagreeing with ACE, saying combat is the most important.

Most SB players don't say much, but the super vocal ones that identify as primarily shadowbane players have generally been opposed to action combat, and anything else that might make the individual skill-ceiling too high in their eyes. 

 

I wish people were following the logic that you describe in your post, but it's actually taking a while for people from a certain background to accept ACE's vision and most of the really vocal players from such background have already tapped out from the forums after trying to change the crowfall to what they want, instead of what ACE is aiming for.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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All I've done here is argue that combat is the most important feature to ACE, and show the OP what to expect when asking for opinions on SB and how it relates to crowfall. 

 

Most SB players don't say much, but the super vocal ones that identify as primarily shadowbane players have generally been opposed to action combat, and anything else that might make the individual skill-ceiling too high in their eyes. 

 

I wish people were following the logic that you describe in your post, but it's actually taking a while for people from a certain background to accept ACE's vision and most of the really vocal players from such background have already tapped out from the forums after trying to change the crowfall to what they want, instead of what ACE is aiming for.

Sigh... Yet again, none of us here have said "no" to "action combat" We said "We just want it done right". See the difference? Wait, who I am kidding? Ofcourse, you don't. 

 

By the way, none of the SB players left the forums due to the game... They went into hiding because of the change into stricter moderation. That is something they are not used to.

Edited by Handies

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Sigh... Yet again, none of us here have said "no" to "action combat" We said "We just want it done right". See the difference? Wait, who I am kidding? Ofcourse, you don't. 

 

By the way, none of the SB players left the forums due to the game... They went into hiding because of the change into stricter moderation. That is something they are not used to.

Doing it right in your eyes seems to be making it less important than ACE sees it as because you don't want individual skill to matter as much.

 

Also many vocal SB players left the forum due to the game actually.  They didn't like the action combat after trying it (many of these same people had trouble steering and aiming with their characters in an action combat based 3d environment)... Also many left after accusing ACE of changing their vision and making EKs matter more.

 

Again it is totally OK to disagree with any decision ACE makes and share your feedback, that's what these forums are for... To me it's just kind of silly to pretend they don't represent the position they do often state they represent, just because one desires so badly for them to remake a failed game. 

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Doing it right in your eyes seems to be making it less important than ACE sees it as because you don't want individual skill to matter as much.

 

Also many vocal SB players left the forum due to the game actually.  They didn't like the action combat after trying it (many of these same people had trouble steering and aiming with their characters in an action combat based 3d environment)... Also many left after accusing ACE of changing their vision and making EKs matter more.

 

Again it is totally OK to disagree with any decision ACE makes and share your feedback, that's what these forums are for... To me it's just kind of silly to pretend they don't represent the position they do often state they represent, just because one desires so badly for them to remake a failed game. 

Trying to actually have a real discussion with you is pointless.

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Trying to actually have a real discussion with you is pointless.

I think discussions with me in this thread have been quite fruitful as long as people accept these premises:

 

-ACE said combat is the most important feature of the game, throughout development, it is not some outdated mantra that they once said in an early 2015 interview, it is something they keep reemphasizing.

 

-ACE has chosen action combat as the representation for their most important feature, meaning action combat is the most important feature in the game, because there is no combat in crowfall without action combat. 

 

-Crowfall borrows ideas from many different games and it is disingenuous and very biased to simply believe that most of the features come from shadowbane. 

 

-Those who succeed in games with higher skill-ceiling and play modern games frequently in general have a better understanding of what ACE is going for than people who were unable to adapt and only played shadowbane and then later on shadowbane emulators.

 

-If players struggle with aiming and moving in action combat, it is only logical that they would want to deemphasize the importance of the action combat. 

 

-True PvPers do not shy away from challenges like high skill-ceilings, they yearn for them.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I stated in my post above that I agree that combat is important and integral to the over success of this game and I agree with most of Vikings bullet points. I did not play Shadowbane so have no dog in the race.

 

However I just do not understand why number four is included

 

"Those who succeed in games with higher skill-ceiling and play modern games frequently in general have a better understanding of what ACE is going for than people who were unable to adapt and only played shadowbane and then later"

 

This is stated as a fact and is just derogatory towards anyone that played Shadowbane. It reads as if there is absolutely no way that anyone that played Shadowbane after X is not a skilled player in anyway. I find it hard to believe that there is no one out there that could have both played and enjoyed Shadowbane and also be skilled at other "higher skill-ceiling" game afterwards. This blanket statement just seems like a constant agenda against Shadowbane players.

 

I just do not understand why those comments are constantly included in VN arguments. Most of his arguments seem valid but then stuff like that gets thrown in and it just seems spiteful.

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This is stated as a fact and is just derogatory towards anyone that played Shadowbane. It reads as if there is absolutely no way that anyone that played Shadowbane after X is not a skilled player in anyway. I find it hard to believe that there is no one out there that could have both played and enjoyed Shadowbane and also be skilled at other "higher skill-ceiling" game afterwards. This blanket statement just seems like a constant agenda against Shadowbane players.

 

I just do not understand why those comments are constantly included in VN arguments. Most of his arguments seem valid but then stuff like that gets thrown in and it just seems spiteful.

Because you did not play shadowbane, perhaps you do not understand why I am making comments like that.

 

Shadowbane is just the most valid example in regards to crowfall because crowfall drew a lot of shadowbane players in general to it because of JTC. 

 

The statement is pretty straightforward.  If you only played one failed mmorpg back in 2003 and never moved on from that game, your understanding of how games operate is simply going to be very limited.  It would be like one person watching american pie as the only film they've ever watched, and then trying to tell others how to make a good film 20 years later. 

 

It isn't derogatory towards anyone that played shadowbane, I myself played shadowbane, it is simply blunt towards people who ONLY ever played shadowbane and were unable to truly move on and adapt to the times. 

 

You need to also understand, that those that truly didn't move on and adapt, not only have a very inexperienced perception of what works in games, many of them actually have a fairly toxic attitude towards change.  (You can check out the magicbane shadowbane emulator forums if you are curious about the toxicity of the group I am referring to)

 

The more experience you have, the better you can contextualize things, if someone has only played 1 game passionately, and that game happens to be extremely old as well, they generally can't contextualize how things are in the modern age. 

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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-Those who succeed in games with higher skill-ceiling and play modern games frequently in general have a better understanding of what ACE is going for than people who were unable to adapt and only played shadowbane and then later on shadowbane emulators.

 

 

I can assure you that most people articulating the parallels between SB and Crowfall have gaming experience that extends well beyond Shadowbane.

 

Here is a glimpse into my gaming history. 

 

http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/6984-if-you-are-new-to-crowfall-introduce-yourself-here/page-39

 

 

I left out the part where I went on to co-lead a nation on Magicbane with my friends from Hyshen.  Our combined communities had over 100 players.

Edited by cyjax

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That still doesn't explain the venom that you seem to have towards Shadowbane.

 

I respect your opinion on combat and the reasoning as to why you stopped playing Shadowbane.

 

I respect the opinion that Shadowbane was a fun game that had many elements to enjoy despite the technical issue it experienced.

 

What I don't understand is why you are attacking others opinions on that specific topic. It is ok for people to disagree without it getting personal.

Edited by Generall77

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Yet, he continues to spew nonsense and act like he even knows what he is talking about. Both of emulators have like 500 players daily, if they are lucky. But hey, we never moved on!

I'll believe people have moved on when they can show success in modern games and an openmindedness towards modern concepts.

 

As long as they do things like refuse to accept that ACE believes in action combat as their most important feature in the game, it just tells me they don't understand what ACE is doing. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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That still doesn't explain the venom that you seem to have towards Shadowbane.

 

I respect that our opinion on combat and the reasoning as to why you stopped playing Shadowbane.

 

I respect the opinion that Shadowbane was a fun game that had many elements to enjoy despite the technical issue it experienced.

 

What I don't understand is why you are attacking others opinions on that specific topic. It is ok for people to disagree without it getting personal.

I'm not really getting personal though.  If you compare what I say, which is more talking about a type of gamer and contextualizing what that type of gamer is bringing to the table (for the sake of explaining to the OP the context of the opinions they will receive) and compare that to the type of arguments that are brought against me in this thread.  (Ranging from being called stupid, to slight jabs at the OP for being able to converse with me in a civil and intelligent manager, someone even saying they have a negative connotation of the OP simply because the OP can converse with me in a civil manner) you can see what is actually going on here. 

 

I don't really attack opinions, I merely state my own in a very straightforward manner.  You'll never see me afraid of another person's opinion, as I am all for open ended discussions.  But I also think certain things can not be disputed (like ACE's stated stance on the subject of combat). 

 

I don't have any venom towards shadowbane, I merely contextualize it for what it was.  Good ideas, bad implementation, JTC himself shares this sentiment.  And I merely contextualize that there is a pocket of gamers that could not evolve past shadowbane, and many of those gamers are very passionate about trying to ignore crowfall's vision and juxtapose their nostalgia from shadowbane onto what they think crowfall should be. 

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I guess the point I am trying to make is this:

 

Why does it matter if others enjoyed Shadowbane despite its faults? It is not my place to tell someone that their opinion is wrong and their passion for something is stupid.

 

If you enjoyed Shadowbane that's cool.

 

If you didn't, that's cool too.

 

There are a lot of games out there that people play that I never did or will understand the attraction too but I am cool with it because at the end of the day we are all gamers.

 

I dig the idea of Crowfall and hope that everyone here continues the passion to keep the community alive

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I guess the point I am trying to make is this:

 

Why does it matter if others enjoyed Shadowbane despite its faults? It is not my place to tell someone that their opinion is wrong and their passion for something is stupid.

 

If you enjoyed Shadowbane that's cool.

 

If you didn't, that's cool too.

 

There are a lot of games out there that people play that I never did or will understand the attraction too but I am cool with it because at the end of the day we are all gamers.

 

I dig the idea of Crowfall and hope that everyone here continues the passion to keep the community alive

There's nothing wrong with enjoying shadowbane, the problem is that if shadowbane is the only mmorpg or game you sunk any significant time into, it's hard to offer meaningful perspective and thoughts on what makes a game good in 2016.  Which in and of itself isn't a problem, people should all share their opinions no matter where they came from.

 

It's just that with a certain crowd they not only share their opinions, but they are highly toxic towards opinions that differ.  I don't know how much you've read these forums since their inception but there is actually a lot of history already related to this kind of behavior. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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the problem is that if shadowbane is the only mmorpg or game you sunk any significant time into, it's hard to offer meaningful perspective and thoughts on what makes a game good in 2016.

 

Sounds like an imaginary "straw man" SB player.

 

Did someone that fits that description post in this thread? Or are you just making sure the thread is ready in case one shows up?


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I would hope that the players that played Shadowbane do not exist in a vacuum and continue to both play and enjoy games up until 2016.

 

I also agree that their was a toxic element to Shadowbane that should not be overlooked.

 

With that being said, the people that I see in this thread that disagree with you are responding as clarification of opinion rather than just blanket statements that should be accepted as proof. People can like both peanut butter and jelly, they do not have to pick just one.

 

As with most types of internet interaction, it is hard to convey emotion in text.

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