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Deloria

Shadowbane... please explain it to me like I'm 5.

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I really do not know what undefeated in Shadowbane means VN? You could claim to have not been killed while scouting or solo ganking players distracted by grinding mobs, kudos, sort of... Or you were underfeated in taking down enemy cities while not losting your own? I chuckled cuz I thought you claimed thnat you never got pk'd... Must not have played the same shadowbane I played because everybody got ganked at one point or another and THAT is what drove the most entertaining drama on the SB boards.

 

Winning every 10vs10 tournament since beta, winning 10 vs 150s in live.  Never actually ever losing a battle.  Never failing a siege. 

 

Great combat is super important, sure, but not without an emotional stake in the fight. Nobody here wants arena style combat with ranking being the motivation, we want STUFF to fight over. Would you not admit that the stuff we fight over, how we acquire it and how far we have to move it and what gear we need to protect it and what mix of skills we need to optimize our resource runs and what intel we can glean about other guilds plans and how we are going to best gear out our peeps is equaly paramount? or rather how the game system lets us accomplish these things and how the user interface facilitates a hell of a lot more than buttons to mash?

 

No one is arguing against this, this is what made the old mmorpgs great, and no one is demanding we fight in arenas for ranking points.  What I am saying is that people need to come to terms with the fact that combat is the most important feature in this game.  It must require skill or the modern gamers are going to get bored and abandon ship quickly.  There's no point in taking stuff to fight over if it took no skill to gain that stuff. 

 

OK, I get you can be a great asset on the front lines, but Crowfall, like Shadowbane or my more recent experiences in Archeage requires a guild with a diverse set of skills, combat skill above all, but tactics and strategic advantage, logistics and leadership, tinkering with crafting. Twitch and smash key to glory VN, and revel in your leetness, the rest of us have a game to support that will have all of this because of the experience we share with ACE, some of which was in Shadowbane.

 

PvP skill trumps all... The best PvPers can handle all of the diverse skills you talk about.  People act like they are separate entities but they really aren't.  A great pvper knows the game inside and out, every facet of it, things like logistics and tinkering aren't going to blow their mind. 

 

But isn't that the point?  Some of these people aren't supporting ACE's vision, they are in denial of things like combat being the most important feature in the game.  It's like there needs to be an antiquated gamer's anonymous where people just have to repeat things clearly stated by ACE and come to terms with them. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Now you are just spouting nonsense...  there is zero correlation between PvP skills and leadership logistical skills, you could have both but one does not simply walk into Mordor.  Guild leadership can usually PvP at a decent level and often hoards gear early on to enhance personal advantage but a good leader gears out across the board but I rarely would say the leadership is the "best" PvPers...   I could actually care less who is better than, that is a subjective pissing contest not worth my time.  

 

You have said in one post you left Shadowbane early on because of bugs and playability, yet then claim you won tournaments???   10v150?  never lost a siege...  How would you have reached R6 in the climate you claim and what server was hosting player driven events in the first few months when everyone was grinding levels, remember leveling was painfully slow at release.  Sounds like a bunch of malarky and that you never faced or played in Rise of Chaos/throne of Oblivion at the R7 level, never played against real builds.  Aftermath dominated Carnage where I started, and the the early politics of War, Death, and the early Aerynth map servers had dominant guilds as well, beta guilds, but eventually everyone got crushed everywhere, servers merged, guild merged, alliances formed and broke and then later there was CN.  During this period when most players were in the R4-R5 range and you had to grind the black dragons to gain R6 was not a time when I remember any player run tournaments...  most of us were R6 and waiting for the expansions and the smaller Vorringia map 

 

At this point I am not sure if you or Donald Trump actually won Shadowbane on a Level 20 toon, maybe your ego is bigger so ok...   you won, and you did it in the first month in a buggy and unplayable mess...  who cares?

Edited by Frykka

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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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Now you are just spouting nonsense...  there is zero correlation between PvP skills and leadership logistical skills, you could have both but one does not simply walk into Mordor.  Guild leadership can usually PvP at a decent level and often hoards gear early on to enhance personal advantage but a good leader gears out across the board but I rarely would say the leadership is the "best" PvPers...   I could actually care less who is better than, that is a subjective pissing contest not worth my time.  

 

I'm sorry that you think it is nonsense, but there's actually complete correlation between it.  Those that understand games intimately are best at understanding what needs to be done in any given situation and generally a person that is aggressive enough to put their understanding into dominant action (killing other players) has no problem leading others.  Perhaps you haven't encountered the great competitive teams across gaming but the leadership always has great pvp skills.  The best pvp guilds require spartan mentality because the best pvpers never end up respecting leadership that is weak at pvp.  Generally you have to be at least one of the strongest pvpers to command obedience from great pvpers.  I think there is often an antiquated/outdated sense when dealing with gamers stuck in the past where they imagine some tactical genius old guy leading a bunch of uber leet  youngster pvpers on roger wilco.  I believe they imagine this because they want to think there are clear lines in the sand between tactical and mechanical skill, and that being really good at one can make up for being weak at another.  The fact of the matter is in any real competitive game you are required to have both, and anyone that only possesses one or the other isn't even in the conversation as a significant threat. 

 

You have said in one post you left Shadowbane early on because of bugs and playability, yet then claim you won tournaments???   10v150?  never lost a siege...  How would you have reached R6 in the climate you claim and what server was hosting player driven events in the first few months when everyone was grinding levels, remember leveling was painfully slow at release.  Sounds like a bunch of malarky and that you never faced or played in Rise of Chaos/throne of Oblivion at the R7 level, never played against real builds.  Aftermath dominated Carnage where I started, and the the early politics of War, Death, and the early Aerynth map servers had dominant guilds as well, beta guilds, but eventually everyone got crushed everywhere, servers merged, guild merged, alliances formed and broke and then later there was CN.  During this period when most players were in the R4-R5 range and you had to grind the black dragons to gain R6 was not a time when I remember any player run tournaments...  most of us were R6 and waiting for the expansions and the smaller Vorringia map 

 

Leveling wasn't painfully slow lol.  Our nation hosted all of the big fight nights in beta and also on scorn.  Even JTC himself believes those of us that experienced the game as it was in beta know what he is talking about when he says he was so close to succeeding with shadowbane.  I see your late-era sb nostalgia and bias is starting to show now. 

 

At this point I am not sure if you or Donald Trump actually won Shadowbane on a Level 20 toon, maybe your ego is bigger so ok...   you won, and you did it in the first month in a buggy and unplayable mess...  who cares?

 

Win at shadowbane and win at everything else.  It's just the same old story, those of us that dominated continued to dominate, and those that were unable to move on to greater competition were unable to move on to greater competition.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Now you are just spouting nonsense...  there is zero correlation between PvP skills and leadership logistical skills, you could have both but one does not simply walk into Mordor.  Guild leadership can usually PvP at a decent level and often hoards gear early on to enhance personal advantage but a good leader gears out across the board but I rarely would say the leadership is the "best" PvPers...   I could actually care less who is better than, that is a subjective pissing contest not worth my time.  

 

I'm sorry that you think it is nonsense, but there's actually complete correlation between it.  Those that understand games intimately are best at understanding what needs to be done in any given situation and generally a person that is aggressive enough to put their understanding into dominant action (killing other players) has no problem leading others.  Perhaps you haven't encountered the great competitive teams across gaming but the leadership always has great pvp skills.  The best pvp guilds require spartan mentality because the best pvpers never end up respecting leadership that is weak at pvp.  Generally you have to be at least one of the strongest pvpers to command obedience from great pvpers.  I think there is often an antiquated/outdated sense when dealing with gamers stuck in the past where they imagine some tactical genius old guy leading a bunch of uber leet  youngster pvpers on roger wilco.  I believe they imagine this because they want to think there are clear lines in the sand between tactical and mechanical skill, and that being really good at one can make up for being weak at another.  The fact of the matter is in any real competitive game you are required to have both, and anyone that only possesses one or the other isn't even in the conversation as a significant threat. 

 

You have said in one post you left Shadowbane early on because of bugs and playability, yet then claim you won tournaments???   10v150?  never lost a siege...  How would you have reached R6 in the climate you claim and what server was hosting player driven events in the first few months when everyone was grinding levels, remember leveling was painfully slow at release.  Sounds like a bunch of malarky and that you never faced or played in Rise of Chaos/throne of Oblivion at the R7 level, never played against real builds.  Aftermath dominated Carnage where I started, and the the early politics of War, Death, and the early Aerynth map servers had dominant guilds as well, beta guilds, but eventually everyone got crushed everywhere, servers merged, guild merged, alliances formed and broke and then later there was CN.  During this period when most players were in the R4-R5 range and you had to grind the black dragons to gain R6 was not a time when I remember any player run tournaments...  most of us were R6 and waiting for the expansions and the smaller Vorringia map 

 

Leveling wasn't painfully slow lol.  Our nation hosted all of the big fight nights in beta and also on scorn.  Even JTC himself believes those of us that experienced the game as it was in beta know what he is talking about when he says he was so close to succeeding with shadowbane.  I see your late-era sb nostalgia and bias is starting to show now. 

 

At this point I am not sure if you or Donald Trump actually won Shadowbane on a Level 20 toon, maybe your ego is bigger so ok...   you won, and you did it in the first month in a buggy and unplayable mess...  who cares?

 

Win at shadowbane and win at everything else.  It's just the same old story, those of us that dominated continued to dominate, and those that were unable to move on to greater competition were unable to move on to greater competition.

 

Thanks for the laughs VN, you are almost a sure bet to win Crowfall Beta too, by self declaration...  Your leetness and epeen is unmatched, where the hell is Protonix when you need his wit...  unable???   its been 7 years since the last SB server closed and we've all been playing right on through the lineup of PvP oriented games. Yet it is not just nostalgia, kid, while SB had it's issues, it was pretty damn fun and had some great concepts that carry all the way into what we all still want in a game.  Yes... the shadowbane crowd wants high skill combat and yes we have played more modern mmos and action combat and want skill to determine who walks off the field and who is carried off.  We want the same dang things VN yet you continue to spew so much nonsense about us as players that simply is wrong... and that is where you fail.  If you don't run off in some poorly made socksstorm of a rant before launch, great, see you in game as we say, there will be plenty looking to tarnish your oh so blinding greatness. 

Edited by Frykka

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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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Thanks for the laughs VN, you are almost a sure bet to win Crowfall Beta too, by self declaration...  Your leetness and epeen is unmatched, where the hell is Protonix when you need his wit...  unable???   its been 7 years since the last SB server closed and we've all been playing right on through the lineup of PvP oriented games. Yet it is not just nostalgia, kid, while SB had it's issues, it was pretty damn fun and had some great concepts that carry all the way into what we all still want in a game.  Yes... the shadowbane crowd wants high skill combat and yes we have played more modern mmos and action combat and want skill to determine who walks off the field and who is carried off.  We want the same dang things VN yet you continue to spew so much nonsense about us as players that simply is wrong... and that is where you fail.  If you don't run off in some poorly made socksstorm of a rant before launch, great, see you in game as we say, there will be plenty looking to tarnish your oh so blinding greatness. 

Seems like you have misinterpreted the lay of the land.  There are quite a few people that declare themselves as primarily shadowbane players that did not just play right through to new pvp games.  They are the ones that tried new games, got destroyed and would keep going back to what was familiar to feel relevant.  And they definitely don't want high skill combat.  These are the same people that struggled to steer or aim their character in crowfall tests so far.  Some of the same people that begged ACE to change to tab-target.  Some of the same people that beg ACE not to make the combat skill-ceiling too high, where their definition of too high is anything that requires a half-decent amount of mechanical skill. 

 

There are good pvpers that spent some time in shadowbane, but a great pvper would have moved on to find better challenges.  I personally have yet to see anyone that identifies themself as a mainly shadowbane player do anything even remotely notable in the tests.  And that's with combat in an inchoate state where it shouldn't really be hard to tread water in matches.  What we are seeing is modern gamers dominate the tests so far, oh gee what a coincidence. 

 

As you can see in this thread there are many trying to deemphasize what combat means in crowfall, despite what ACE has repeatedly said.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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To reassure Deloria as was the intent of the thread.

 

Shadowbane was:

 

Focused on open world PvP conflict with no safe zone except the starting npc cities and the noob island (safe to level 20)

Player generated content and conflict

Huge variety of character builds

Castle/city/stronghold building and destruction

Resource node conflicts

Click to move (fail)

Tab target (no longer the standard)

High end gear drops from special spawns on 8 hour timers (camped 24-7)

Feature Character events (total fail)

Banestone process for siege event windows and tree/bane destruction victory (like siege perilous)

 

That is kind of all that really matters...  


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To reassure Deloria as was the intent of the thread.

 

Shadowbane was:

 

Focused on open world PvP conflict with no safe zone except the starting npc cities and the noob island (safe to level 20)

Player generated content and conflict

Huge variety of character builds

Castle/city/stronghold building and destruction

Resource node conflicts

Click to move (fail)

Tab target (no longer the standard)

High end gear drops from special spawns on 8 hour timers (camped 24-7)

Feature Character events (total fail)

Banestone process for siege event windows and tree/bane destruction victory (like siege perilous)

 

That is kind of all that really matters...  

Also shadowbane generally had a very low skill-ceiling which is completely different than crowfall, where combat is being emphasized as the most important feature in the game. 

 

Oh yea, also, shadowbane probably required about 20-60 actions per minute to play to its fullest potential mechanically. 

 

The fact of the matter is most of the nostalgia comes from player choices mattering and social aspects... every old school mmorpg had this on pvp servers...

 

As someone that played shadowbane I can tell the OP right now that the low skill-ceiling on the game made it hard as a hardcore pvper to really get immersed in it. 

 

Compare that to games like Asheron's Call on the darktide server where you had to use a lot more skill per pvp engagement and everything just mattered more, because it required more work and dedication.  You started to truly care which guilds were doing what, and every little social element going on.  Just a common theme in the earliest MMOs, things mattering more because you actually had to work at them to accomplish stuff.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Seems like you have misinterpreted the lay of the land.  There are quite a few people that declare themselves as primarily shadowbane players that did not just play right through to new pvp games.  They are the ones that tried new games, got destroyed and would keep going back to what was familiar to feel relevant.  And they definitely don't want high skill combat.  These are the same people that struggled to steer or aim their character in crowfall tests so far.  Some of the same people that begged ACE to change to tab-target.  Some of the same people that beg ACE not to make the combat skill-ceiling too high, where their definition of too high is anything that requires a half-decent amount of mechanical skill. 

 

There are good pvpers that spent some time in shadowbane, but a great pvper would have moved on to find better challenges.  I personally have yet to see anyone that identifies themself as a mainly shadowbane player do anything even remotely notable in the tests.  And that's with combat in an inchoate state where it shouldn't really be hard to tread water in matches.  What we are seeing is modern gamers dominate the tests so far, oh gee what a coincidence. 

 

As you can see in this thread there are many trying to deemphasize what combat means in crowfall, despite what ACE has repeatedly said.

 

I didn't see that de-emphasis, rather, I saw agreement with you on combat...   no worries.  Most SB players haven't even been in test yet.  Myself, I gots a ROG G752 coming in the mail next week and will finally be getting involved more as we push toward alpha.  My desktop has been in storage since April when I started the whitewater work season.   


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This game won't be balanced on large scale combat, large scale combat is something that rarely occurs in mmos compared to small scale combat.  You spend 99% of your time fighting small scale combat. 

 

 Still picking through your replys VN, what, what, I experienced huge land and sea battles in Archeage with some exceeding 200 v 200 on both the center island and at sea ship to ship and lasted 6-8 hours and happened week after week...   I know the game was tab target and gear emphasized over high-skill but I am not talking combat here just the scale of combat...   the resource nodes and caravan runs could be a heck of a lot bigger than you envision depending on how many CWs they put up at launch, but from my fairly recent experience fighting the damn Brazilians for 8 hours over the Kraken spawn it was anything but small scale, PRX can field quite the horde, so can Oral Thul... much more like the giant zerg blobs in Warhammer... of course population is everything and we should all be welcoming these questions and new players asking with open arms (and hidden knives).  Open recruiting large guilds are going to be here along with the smaller, tight knit, high skill crews, we hope...

Edited by Frykka

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I didn't see that de-emphasis, rather, I saw agreement with you on combat...   no worries.  Most SB players haven't even been in test yet.  Myself, I gots a ROG G752 coming in the mail next week and will finally be getting involved more as we push toward alpha.  My desktop has been in storage since April when I started the whitewater work season.   

Really?  I have yet to see these people capable of admitting that combat is the most important feature in the game and will remain so.  Anyway good luck in testing, hope you enjoy it!

 

 Still picking through your replys VN, what, what, I experienced huge land and sea battles in Archeage with some exceeding 200 v 200 on both the center island and at sea ship to ship and lasted 6-8 hours and happened week after week...   I know the game was tab target and gear emphasized over high-skill but I am not talking combat here just the scale of combat...   the resource nodes and caravan runs could be a heck of a lot bigger than you envision depending on how many CWs they put up at launch, but from my fairly recent experience fighting the damn Brazilians for 8 hours over the Kraken spawn it was anything but small scale, PRX can field quite the horde, so can Oral Thul... much more like the giant zerg blobs in Warhammer... of course population is everything and we should all be welcoming these questions and new players asking with open arms (and hidden knives).  Open recruiting large guilds are going to be here along with the smaller, tight knit, high skill crews, we hope...

Cool but for every large battle you saw there were hundreds of little gankfests going on at all times.  The majority of pvp that occurs in games is not large scale pvp.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Even JTC himself believes those of us that experienced the game as it was in beta know what he is talking about when he says he was so close to succeeding with shadowbane.  I see your late-era sb nostalgia and bias is starting to show now.  

 

 

He referenced beta because that was the time period he was talking about. He wasn't around for a whole lot longer after launch, so he can't exactly reminisce about a time when he wasn't there. You have to distort his meaning quite a bit to pretend he is saying that people who played late-era SB could not tell what his vision "almost working" felt like, and that only beta players could.

 

It is funny how you latch onto a phrase, take it out of context, and pretend it means something else.

 

What he is really talking about is how the bugs and instability prevented the vision from showing through. The thing is, after the disastrous launch, bugs and instability were improved. That means in the late era of SB it was actually more feasible to see the vision working as intended. Those clouds and fires that kept erupting while he was there were put out, to some extent. He wasn't there for that, though, so it makes sense he wouldn't reminisce about that time period.

 

As someone who played in SB beta, live, and late live, I can tell you that it was still the same game later, still based on the same vision, but it ran better. Never perfectly, but better. That helped to see the actual "throne war" happening rather than just bugs and crashes.

 

What haunts me is this: it ALMOST worked.

 

The vision we (the Wolfpack founders) had was amazing.  The vision was right there, so perfectly clear in our minds.  It was tangible.  And, every now and then in development, the rarest of moments.  A break in the storm clouds, the sunlight would pour through like a light from heaven and everything would just WORK.  For a few moments, you could FEEL it.  Ask the folks who played the SB beta, they can tell you what it felt like:

 

THIS IS IT.

 

THIS IS THE GAME. 

 

THIS IS THE VISION. 

 

IT IS REAL.

 

IT WORKS. 

 

 

...and then the clouds would roll back in, fires would erupt all around me, and everything would go to hell again.

Edited by Jah

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He referenced beta because that was the time period he was talking about. He wasn't around for a whole lot longer after launch, so he can't exactly reminisce about a time when he wasn't there. You have to distort his meaning quite a bit to pretend he is saying that people who played late-era SB could not tell what his vision "almost working" was like, and that only beta players could.

 

It is funny how you latch onto a phrase, take it out of context, and pretend it means something else.

I haven't actually taken it out of context at all.  I am merely stating what he has stated... Any weird imaginary meaning you've added beyond that is probably due to your biases and not really based in reality.

 

Shadowbane failed as a game, but the creator behind it admits that those in beta saw what it could have been.  He definitely never says those that played after the game lost most of its players saw what it could have been.  You can argue as to why he never said it, but it doesn't change the fact that he never said it. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I haven't actually taken it out of context at all.  I am merely stating what he has stated... Any weird imaginary meaning you've added beyond that is probably due to your biases and not really based in reality.

 

You implied it. And you know how I know that? Because you said it clearly before.

 

VIKINGNAIL, on 19 Jul 2016 - 4:29 PM, said:

 

The most interesting thing about that quote is that he told people to ask those who played beta about what they almost had... and yet so many of the people begging for crowfall to be sb 2.0 are not from sb beta, so they don't even know what white whale jtc was talking about because they weren't around to see what they almost had.

 

Going to deny that? Weird imaginary meanings?

Edited by Jah

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You implied it. And you know how I know that? Because you said it clearly before.

 

 

Going to deny that? Weird imaginary meanings?

Nope, that doesn't imply anything except the fact that those that did not share the experience JTC had, were not able to see or know what he is talking about. 

 

Which is like, common sense?  It's almost like if you didn't experience a certain period of time, you didn't experience a certain period of time.

 

Like I said before, you are creating weird imaginary meanings instead of the literal meanings.  Let me clarify in hopes that you don't continue misconstruing things.

 

JTC believes those in SB beta could see what he almost had with shadowbane.  Those that were not in SB beta, he can not vouch for, and did not partake in the same experiences with shadowbane that he had. 

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Gonna move this to the Shadowbane forum section now. Please feel free to continue the discussion there. 


Valerie "Pann" Massey, Director of Community
 

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Nope, that doesn't imply anything except the fact that those that did not share the experience JTC had, were not able to see or know what he is talking about. 

 

I think you should stop trying to distort what JTC said to try to marginalize his fans.

 

You may claim that people who played SB in the years after it launched did not see what he is talking about, but JTC has made no such claim.


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I think you should stop trying to distort what JTC said to try to marginalize his fans.

 

You may claim that people who played SB in the years after it launched did not see what he is talking about, but JTC has made no such claim.

I never said he made such a claim.  It's like you are ignoring what is actually said. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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