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Deloria

Shadowbane... please explain it to me like I'm 5.

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Why do I do this?

 

Really?  I have yet to see these people capable of admitting that combat is the most important feature in the game and will remain so. 

 

Do you agree or disagree that your lungs are as important as your heart?

 

Is your heart your most important organ? What about your brain, or your liver? Newsflash, your still dead without a brain, liver, or lungs.

 

No one debating you is denying that combat is an important feature of the game. How I see it, they are debating whether combat should be the most important feature. And, thus by being the most important feature, ACE could ship the game with combat alone, with all other features being a horrible, buggy mess and still find ACE would success. That is what you imply when you say combat is the most important feature.

 

If JTC and ACE wholeheartedly believe that they could ship the game with only phenomenal combat and be successful, then they are dead wrong.

 

If combat is CF's heart, siege warfare is CF's lungs and crafting is CF's liver, then if they overemphasize combat as CF's heart, but neglect the lungs and the liver, the game will still shrivel and die.

Edited by coolster50

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You Can't Be A Genius, If You Aren't The Slightest Bit Insane.

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Why do I do this?

 

 

Do you agree or disagree that your lungs are as important as your heart?

 

Is your heart your most important organ? What about your brain, or your liver? Newsflash, your still dead without a brain, liver, or lungs.

 

No one debating you is denying that combat is an important feature of the game. How I see it, they are debating whether combat should be the most important feature. And, thus by being the most important feature, ACE could ship the game with combat alone, with all other features being a horrible, buggy mess and still find ACE would success. That is what you imply when you say combat is the most important feature.

 

If JTC and ACE wholeheartedly believe that they could ship the game with only phenomenal combat and be successful, then they are dead wrong.

 

If combat is CF's heart, siege warfare is CF's lungs and crafting is CF's liver, then if they overemphasize combat as CF's heart, but neglect the lungs and the liver, the game will still shrivel and die.

I'm not really interested in the heart statement so much as the fact that they constantly restate that combat is the most important feature.  I don't care if people agree with that or not, but I find it silly that certain people deny the fact that ACE believes that.  It's fine to disagree with ACE, but it's silly to pretend they didn't say something that they constantly say.  Hell I think the vessel system sucks, but I won't pretend ACE doesn't truly want it, I mean they are implementing it after all. 

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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If combat is CF's heart, siege warfare is CF's lungs and crafting is CF's liver, then if they overemphasize combat as CF's heart, but neglect the lungs and the liver, the game will still shrivel and die.

Pretty decent analogy as analogies go must say. Also can say if the heart isn't strong enough then the rest doesn't really matter as it won't get much or rather its full use anyway. ie weak combat will make even the best siege and crafting trivial as not enough might stick around to experience it.

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Pretty decent analogy as analogies go must say. Also can say if the heart isn't strong enough then the rest doesn't really matter as it won't get much or rather its full use anyway. ie weak combat will make even the best siege and crafting trivial as not enough might stick around to experience it.

The problem is that these features aren't made equal.  The game won't last without good combat.  A lot of these other things are not nearly as vital as far as features go.  I am pretty sure dedicated PvPers generally don't give a damn about crafting for example. 

 

And siege warfare isn't really something pvpers have huge expectations for in MMORPGs because they usually have performance issues and are gimmicky anyway. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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It doesn't matter what any particular tester thinks is the "most important." You can think the stylized animation is the "most important" feature if ya like. That doesn't change several realities:

  • Large scale PvP campaigns and siege mechanics are the reason most people are here.
  • Large scale PvP campaigns and siege mechanics are the thing that really distinguishes CF as a game from other games.
  • Any player who's here for the "action combat" is here for "action combat" in a game with large scale PvP campaigns and and siege mechanics.
  • There are lots of action combat games without large scale PvP campaigns and siege mechanics. Nobody is here for that.

Its all important, but the large group conflict and the systems that were developed in ..... yep, Shadowbane ... that's the reason backers flocked to CF. There's nothing else out there like that, with or without "action combat."

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It doesn't matter what any particular tester thinks is the "most important." You can think the stylized animation is the "most important" feature if ya like. That doesn't change several realities:

  • Large scale PvP campaigns and siege mechanics are the reason most people are here.
  • Large scale PvP campaigns and siege mechanics are the thing that really distinguishes CF as a game from other games.
  • Any player who's here for the "action combat" is here for "action combat" in a game with large scale PvP campaigns and and siege mechanics.
  • There are lots of action combat games without large scale PvP campaigns and siege mechanics. Nobody is here for that.

Its all important, but the large group conflict and the systems that were developed in ..... yep, Shadowbane ... that's the reason backers flocked to CF. There's nothing else out there like that, with or without "action combat."

Sorry, again, combat is most important part of game, not the siege mechanics, not the campaign system.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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The heart of the Crowfall design lies in the marriage of two game systems:

 

- A system for strategic territorial conquest, and

- A system for player-driven crafting and economics system

 

Like a proverbial "yin and yang", these two systems have very different (and often competing) design goals -- but each of them REALLY shines only in the presence of the other.

....

Todd

ACE

 

Sounds like Todd thinks these things are pretty important. The heart of the Crowfall design, even. And he gets how the elements really only shine when combined. You can probably stop bashing people for agreeing with him.

Edited by Jah

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Sounds like Todd thinks these things are pretty important. The heart of the Crowfall design, even. And he gets how the elements really only shine when combined. You can probably stop bashing people for agreeing with him.

Well what's interesting is that him and tblair have restated over and over that combat is the most important feature in the game.  So you know... it's a consistent message that has been stated throughout the development and is up to date. 

 

The difference here is that you are desperately looking for quotes that ultimately conflict with other quotes, often said for marketing purposes or in moments of fuzziness.  Whereas I am looking at the consistent message delivered through the course of development.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Well what's interesting is that him and tblair have restated over and over that combat is the most important feature in the game.  So you know... it's a consistent message that has been stated throughout the development and is up to date. 

 

Some people are able to take two superficially contradictory statements and see that they are not actually contradictory.

 

I have no problem with you deciding to ignore what Todd has said. That is not my concern. I would prefer that you stopped trying to provoke people for not seeing things in the same way that you do.


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Some people are able to take two superficially contradictory statements and see that they are not actually contradictory.

 

I have no problem with you deciding to ignore what Todd has said. That is not my concern. I would prefer that you stopped trying to provoke people for not seeing things in the same way that you do.

I'd simply prefer if you were able to accept that he and tblair have repeatedly said combat is the most important thing in the game.  But I see you are still unable to do so.  Which is interesting, since they've said it so frequently.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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TEE EL DEE ARR

 

This game is a spiritual successor to SB...deal with it.

Todd loved his concepts for SB, and is improving on them for CF...deal with it.

SB fans loved SB and the aforementioned two points are why they're excited for CF...deal with it.

 

...at the end of the day, I'm pretty sure the fans of SB will be more satisfied with CF than SB haters are.  And to the SB-neutrals, come along for the ride and you'll see what all the fuss is/was about.

 

And as an aside, anyone that posits that the point-click combat or unstable engine is what SB fans loved about SB is delusional or trolling.


"Food for the crows..."    Nobuo Xa'el

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Can't help you out here, I DL the emulator after hearing all the people from CF talk about it. I played for I think 10 min, that was enough to realize it was terrible even by 2003 standards. Now 10 minutes is not long enough to give the game a fair chance in most cases but all I had to see was the UI and the movement, the mouse to the left or right of the screen to pan? God bless all of you that saw something I clearly am blind to.

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Can't help you out here, I DL the emulator after hearing all the people from CF talk about it. I played for I think 10 min, that was enough to realize it was terrible even by 2003 standards. Now 10 minutes is not long enough to give the game a fair chance in most cases but all I had to see was the UI and the movement, the mouse to the left or right of the screen to pan? God bless all of you that saw something I clearly am blind to.

 

Yeah, the UI was not that great, although it was the most customizable UI for its time imo.  Also, everyone turned off camera panning. :P

 

But, yes, 10 minutes was not enough to experience the political intrigue or territory control or military simulation aspects of the game.  It wasn't even really enough to experience the character progression/customization aspects. 

 

I don't blame you though.  If I was playing SB for the first time today, I wouldn't play more than 10 minutes either.


"Food for the crows..."    Nobuo Xa'el

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Can't help you out here, I DL the emulator after hearing all the people from CF talk about it. I played for I think 10 min, that was enough to realize it was terrible even by 2003 standards. Now 10 minutes is not long enough to give the game a fair chance in most cases but all I had to see was the UI and the movement, the mouse to the left or right of the screen to pan? God bless all of you that saw something I clearly am blind to.

Yea even by 2003 standards the game was utter fail in that regard.  Between that and the constant client crashes and the buggier version of the game back then it was just ridiculous that any decent pvper would stick around for that game, so they all left.

 

You would have to ask yourself what kind of player might stick around through all that newbishness, and the answer would be, a person that wanted to frolic in a small pond but could not survive in a big pond. 

 

You could probably tell right off the bat that the mechanical skill-ceiling for the game was probably lower than any other mmorpg to date.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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TEE EL DEE ARR

 

This game is a spiritual successor to SB...deal with it.

Todd loved his concepts for SB, and is improving on them for CF...deal with it.

SB fans loved SB and the aforementioned two points are why they're excited for CF...deal with it.

 

...at the end of the day, I'm pretty sure the fans of SB will be more satisfied with CF than SB haters are.  And to the SB-neutrals, come along for the ride and you'll see what all the fuss is/was about.

 

And as an aside, anyone that posits that the point-click combat or unstable engine is what SB fans loved about SB is delusional or trolling.

I'm pretty sure some of the most diehard SB fans have already thrown in the towel for the foreseeable future on this game.  I'm also pretty sure the ones that are still here just spent 16 pages trying to argue against high skill-ceiling combat. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I don't blame you though.  If I was playing SB for the first time today, I wouldn't play more than 10 minutes either.

 

Yep. I would be stunned if someone could try Shadowbane for the first time, in 2016, on one of the emulators, and think it is worth playing.


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