Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
Deloria

Shadowbane... please explain it to me like I'm 5.

Recommended Posts

It is not for you to decide how magical Shadowbane was to other people.

Yea but it is for me to decide how objective they are about shadowbane and what crowfall is and isn't in relation to it.

 

The OP wants to know what shadowbane is/was some people are misremembering it.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And you have yet to say anything about what Shadowbane is.

 

All you are up to in this thread is insulting people who are nostalgic about Shadowbane.

Perhaps you should reread the thread... cause I have definitely talked about what shadowbane is/was. 

 

I don't mind other people having opinions about what shadowbane was, I wonder why so many people mind it being pointed out how buggy the game was and how quickly it lost players due to poor coding.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Shadowbane was a forum based PvP game in which whoever had the most posts in a thread won.

Edited by checkyotrack

You are so incredibly helpful, CYT. I don't know how I ever managed to do anything before we met. I was just bumbling my way through life, all lost-like. Thank you. My blessing cup runneth over.

SWrkfdj.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lol I see more people are getting to know VN.

 

I swear I have the guy on ignore and I still see 90% of his posts when other backers quote him in ridicule.

You sure like mentioning this over and over again, I don't think you realize it isn't something to be proud of. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I had terrible acne and I think Shadowbane cured me

What's really fascinating is that my contention has always been that shadowbane was at its best during late beta (didn't crash nearly as much as at launch) and into launch (actually had a high population when it first came out)... JTC once made a very long post about shadowbane and mentioned that he almost had it right (I don't think he did because the game was unplayable and that's kind of a big deal when it constantly crashes and is poorly coded) but he also mentioned that people in beta would know what he is talking about.  He is right, those of us that dominated beta understood best what shadowbane could have been, yet we also realize it never came close to achieving that.

 

Then there are people that came along that didn't even play beta, but fell in love with the game for whatever reason they did, after all of the top guilds left shortly after launch, and then they fell in love with the game in its lesser form (less populated and no good players left playing) and think it is something magical, not understanding that those of us that were there when the game wasn't dead already played a better version of it and saw what it had to offer and what it could have offered. 

 

It would be like transformers 3 movie developing a small underground following of people that never saw any other transformers movie and those people claiming that the movie had the best movie formula they've ever experienced and that the transformers series is the best ever, while those of us that watched transformers 1 would be like, "Uh transformers 3 was pretty crappy, and at best transformers 1 was mediocre, you should watch more movies". 

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This thread topic seems like clear Vikingnail-bait. 

 

There are lot of people with an agenda on these boards.  Anyone who tells you Shadowbane was not buggy and was the most stable game is lying.  Similarly though, anyone telling you that the game was an unstable piece of trash that crashed "every 10 minutes" is also lying.  Lots of players played despite the occasional random crashes (usually worse during large sieges) some were more affected than others and some people had them often enough to quit.  I certainly wouldnt have stayed if the game in fact crashed every 10 minutes.

 

Shadowbane did eat its own.  Dealing with real loss was not something MMO players had ever experienced on such scale.  This DID cause a massive loss in population.  Its something that resetting CWs and EKs are designed to fix.

 

Anyone who left in the first months of Shadowbane also has no clue what they are talking about.  Its like saying "I played EVE at launch in 2003, before there was player sovereignty and then quit, and let me tell you that game sucked!"

Edited by angelmar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This thread topic seems like clear Vikingnail-bait. 

 

There are lot of people with an agenda on these boards.  Anyone who tells you Shadowbane was not buggy and was the most stable game is lying.  Similarly though, anyone telling you that the game was an unstable piece of trash that crashed "every 10 minutes" is also lying.  Lots of players played despite the occasional random crashes (usually worse during large sieges) some were more affected than others and some people had them often enough to quit.  I certainly wouldnt have stayed if the game in fact crashed every 10 minutes.

 

Shadowbane did eat its own.  Dealing with real loss was not something MMO players had ever experienced on such scale.  This DID cause a massive loss in population.  Its something that resetting CWs and EKs are designed to fix.

 

Anyone who left in the first months of Shadowbane also has no clue what they are talking about.  Its like saying "I played EVE at launch in 2003, before there was player sovereignty and then quit, and let me tell you that game sucked!"

Nope, the game literally crashed every 10 minutes, and if you deny that you simply didn't play it when the game was most populated.   It not only crashed every 10 minutes, in large sieges it probably crashed more like every 3 minutes. 

 

And no, eating its own didn't cause the loss in population, you clearly didn't play at launch.  What caused the massive loss in population was the fact that the game could not run properly, was poorly optimized, the entire service got hacked and people were worried about their cc information, etc. 

 

Also it's pretty interesting because JTC penned a post about how he had this vision and shadowbane almost achieved it, and those that played beta knew what he was talking about.  So I mean if the maker of shadowbane himself thinks those that played beta saw what the game could have been... maybe you are the one that has no clue what they are talking about.

 

You played transformers 3, I played and dominated transformers 1.  Those that dominated transformers 1 were able to go on and dominate much more populated and competitive games... Those that played transformers 3 seemed unable to do so.

 

I mean I think the OP wants to understand what shadowbane was, if those that played beta and early launch were the ones that could see what it was and what it could have been, because they got to play the game when it was most stable and when it was most competitive... I think those people are the most credible to tell the OP what shadowbane was. 

 

It wasn't some magical narnia land of epic sandbox battles... by the time the game got stable after launch it was a very underpopulated game and the best players had left.  Nothing epic about that.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What's really fascinating is that my contention has always been that shadowbane was at its best during late beta (didn't crash nearly as much as at launch) and into launch (actually had a high population when it first came out)... JTC once made a very long post about shadowbane and mentioned that he almost had it right (I don't think he did because the game was unplayable and that's kind of a big deal when it constantly crashes and is poorly coded) but he also mentioned that people in beta would know what he is talking about.  He is right, those of us that dominated beta understood best what shadowbane could have been, yet we also realize it never came close to achieving that.

 

...

 

Sigh, I'll probably regret getting involved in this again, but it's bothering me. You seem incapable of separating the concepts how a game is designed and how that design is actually implemented, and I don't understand why.

 

Shadowbane had a lot of great things going for it. An amazing character customization system - races, starter runes, base classes, professions, disciplines, stat allocation, skill point allocation, weapon choice. Every single one of these aspects had a noticeable and significant effect on how your character turned out, none of them were superfluous. The city building and sieging system was light years ahead of anything that had come before it and it could be argued that it still hasn't been topped. The emergent political meta game that came from the ability to build and destroy other nations/guilds cities was unlike anything that could be found in other MMO's of the time and to this day is still something that very few MMO's can offer. The constant battle over limited resources such as mines, discipline runes, and even farming and leveling hotspots meant there was always pvp to be had somewhere (even if you didn't want the resources or whatever, you knew some other guild was going to be there guarding it). Throw in a few extra goodies like looting dead players, no theme-park questing hogwash, open pvp pretty much everywhere in the entire game world, and probably a host of other cool poorly made socks I've since forgotten.

 

Now for all of the stuff that Shadowbane did right, it did a whole lot of poorly made socks terribly, terribly wrong as well. The game was rushed to release way too early. The servers couldn't handle the amount of total players, and certainly couldn't handle the amount of concurrent players that would frequently gather in the same location. I strongly suspect this wasn't just a lack of server capacity, but also poor netcode and server-client architecture. As a result the game was insanely laggy, rubber-banding all across the map was just a fact of life, pvp and even pve was nearly impossible a lot of the time. Bugs and glitches were everywhere - constant crashes, getting stuck in terrain or buildings, items disappearing, mobs appearing to be in one location while they were actually somewhere else, your character appearing in one location while actually being somewhere else (and all of the myriad targeting problems that came along with that), broken skills, broken NPC's, exploitable code that allowed players to cheat in various ways, and again probably a host of other broken poorly made socks I've since forgotten.

 

Now I want you to pause for a moment and try to understand the fundamental difference between these lists. The first paragraph is all things that fall in the design category - they are systems and concepts that were developed through the vision and ideas that the development team had for the game. The second paragraph, where poorly made socks went terribly wrong, are all failures in the implementation of the game - rushed deadlines, poor planning, bad code, lack of bug testing and general QA.

 

People who love(d) Shadowbane aren't blinded by nostalgia (well, not all of them at least). They haven't forgotten how broken the game was at launch (though some may not have been around for it) or how long it took to fix (and some of the issues were literally never fixed, right up to the day the servers went down). Shadowbane was a deeply flawed game. The players know it, the developers knew it, Todd knows it. But the vast majority of it's problems, the primary reasons why it flamed out and died so quickly, were technical issues related to its implementation. And while that knowledge was of no use to Shadowbane while it was flailing about trying to stave off a premature death, it's great for us now because we know that those technical problems do not have to be repeated. It's entirely possible to build a spiritual successor to Shadowbane that isn't plagued by rampant bugs, glitches, crashes, and exploits.

 

I'm not blind to Shadowbanes non-technical failures either. The server system was doomed to fail from the start with no pre-planned way to end a server, which resulted in server death by stagnation over time (and was another big reason why Shadowbane struggled to retain players, as many got bored and quit long before server resets ever happened). Balance issues plagued the game for a long time. Poorly thought out class and skill design lead to rampant botting of support classes like bards and priests. Crafting was essentially non-existent for most of the player base. Etc, etc.

 

Hey guess what - these can be fixed too! We're building a whole new game from the ground up here!

 

Now this is very important, so pay close attention and really let it sink in. It is possible for someone to want Crowfall to build on [some/most/all] of the great design concepts from Shadowbane, while simultaneously wanting Crowfall to avoid the bad design concepts and myriad mistakes made during the implementation of Shadowbane.

 

Is it sinking in yet? Can you wrap your brain around such a complex idea? Now tell me again, how is it that I'm just a nostalgia blinded sucker who only wants Shadowbane 2.0 because I've forgotten all about how broken the game was?

 

 

Let's switch gears a bit and go back to your first post again. Are you starting to understand why, when someone (the OP) asks "what Shadowbane was like and why so many people want Crowfall to be like Shadowbane", bringing up the fact that the game was a buggy mess is absolutely irrelevant? The OP doesn't care, that doesn't tell him anything about why people want this game to be like Shadowbane. The only way it could possibly be relevant information for the OP is if you are trying to suggest to him that the real intention of the people on these forums who are lobbying to make this game more like Shadowbane is that they are trying to turn Crowfall into a buggy mess also.

 

If that is actually what you were trying to relay to the OP, it's one of the most absurd things I've ever heard, and I stand by my previous assessment that you are indeed stupid. If that isn't what you were trying to say, then due to the previously established fact that information about how buggy the game was is completely useless to the OP, I can only conclude that you said it either as an underhanded attempt to lower the OPs opinion of Shadowbane with irrelevant information (which is stupid), that you didn't even realize that the information was completely useless (also stupid). Or maybe you just like to throw insults at Shadowbane because you get some weird enjoyment from it or to intentionally annoy other posters on this forum, which I'm sorry to say, is also very stupid.

Edited by syiss

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sigh, I'll probably regret getting involved in this again, but it's bothering me. You seem incapable of separating the concepts how a game is designed and how that design is actually implemented, and I don't understand why.

 

I think more than likely the issue here is that you are nostalgic about a game and yourself can not separate it.

 

Shadowbane had a lot of great things going for it. An amazing character customization system - races, starter runes, base classes, professions, disciplines, stat allocation, skill point allocation, weapon choice. Every single one of these aspects had a noticeable and significant effect on how your character turned out, none of them were superfluous. The city building and sieging system was light years ahead of anything that had come before it and it could be argued that it still hasn't been topped. The emergent political meta game that came from the ability to build and destroy other nations/guilds cities was unlike anything that could be found in other MMO's of the time and to this day is still something that very few MMO's can offer. The constant battle over limited resources such as mines, discipline runes, and even farming and leveling hotspots meant there was always pvp to be had somewhere (even if you didn't want the resources or whatever, you knew some other guild was going to be there guarding it). Throw in a few extra goodies like looting dead players, no theme-park questing hogwash, open pvp pretty much everywhere in the entire game world, and probably a host of other cool poorly made socks I've since forgotten.

 

Shadowbane had a lot of great ideas going for it.  Those ideas never truly came to fruition because the game was unplayable. 

 

Now for all of the stuff that Shadowbane did right, it did a whole lot of poorly made socks terribly, terribly wrong as well. The game was rushed to release way too early. The servers couldn't handle the amount of total players, and certainly couldn't handle the amount of concurrent players that would frequently gather in the same location. I strongly suspect this wasn't just a lack of server capacity, but also poor netcode and server-client architecture. As a result the game was insanely laggy, rubber-banding all across the map was just a fact of life, pvp and even pve was nearly impossible a lot of the time. Bugs and glitches were everywhere - constant crashes, getting stuck in terrain or buildings, items disappearing, mobs appearing to be in one location while they were actually somewhere else, your character appearing in one location while actually being somewhere else (and all of the myriad targeting problems that came along with that), broken skills, broken NPC's, exploitable code that allowed players to cheat in various ways, and again probably a host of other broken poorly made socks I've since forgotten.

 

Correct, and near the end of beta the game didn't have a lot of these issues but for whatever reason launch version was exponentially worse. 

 

Now I want you to pause for a moment and try to understand the fundamental difference between these lists. The first paragraph is all things that fall in the design category - they are systems and concepts that were developed through the vision and ideas that the development team had for the game. The second paragraph, where poorly made socks went terribly wrong, are all failures in the implementation of the game - rushed deadlines, poor planning, bad code, lack of bug testing and general QA.

 

I want you to understand that anyone can have great ideas, whether they can implement them is what matters. 

 

People who love(d) Shadowbane aren't blinded by nostalgia (well, not all of them at least). They haven't forgotten how broken the game was at launch (though some may not have been around for it) or how long it took to fix (and some of the issues were literally never fixed, right up to the day the servers went down). Shadowbane was a deeply flawed game. The players know it, the developers knew it, Todd knows it. But the vast majority of it's problems, the primary reasons why it flamed out and died so quickly, were technical issues related to its implementation. And while that knowledge was of no use to Shadowbane while it was flailing about trying to stave off a premature death, it's great for us now because we know that those technical problems do not have to be repeated. It's entirely possible to build a spiritual successor to Shadowbane that isn't plagued by rampant bugs, glitches, crashes, and exploits.

 

No they really are for the most part.  Many of them didn't even play at launch, so they don't even know what the game was like when it was most populated and most competitive.  They played in a small pond and are nostalgic of those small pond battles thinking the game captured something truly great.  They generally also were unable to move on to find success in bigger ponds so they can't really relate to big pond experiences. 

 

I'm not blind to Shadowbanes non-technical failures either. The server system was doomed to fail from the start with no pre-planned way to end a server, which resulted in server death by stagnation over time (and was another big reason why Shadowbane struggled to retain players, as many got bored and quit long before server resets ever happened). Balance issues plagued the game for a long time. Poorly thought out class and skill design lead to rampant botting of support classes like bards and priests. Crafting was essentially non-existent for most of the player base. Etc, etc.

 

You may be able to talk about shadowbane's technical failures but do you truly understand that the game was literally a joke because of it? 

 

Hey guess what - these can be fixed too! We're building a whole new game from the ground up here!

 

Now this is very important, so pay close attention and really let it sink in. It is possible for someone to want Crowfall to build on [some/most/all] of the great design concepts from Shadowbane, while simultaneously wanting Crowfall to avoid the bad design concepts and myriad mistakes made during the implementation of Shadowbane.

 

Now this is very important, so pay close attention and really let it sink in.  Those that played shadowbane when it was relevant know what is good and bad about the game, those that played it when it was a small pond after most of the players had left are grasping at nostalgia and aren't objective about what the game was.  So even if JTC says that crowfall borrows heavily from shadowbane, he means it borrows from the shadowbane that he was a part of, not the shadowbane people experienced later on. 

 

Is it sinking in yet? Can you wrap your brain around such a complex idea? Now tell me again, how is it that I'm just a nostalgia blinded sucker who only wants Shadowbane 2.0 because I've forgotten all about how broken the game was?

 

Is it sinking in yet?  Can you wrap your brain around such a really simple and obvious concept?  Well let me ask you this?  How long did you play shadowbane, did you dominate it early on?  Did you even play beta?  Do you know what made it great?  Do you know why it was a joke in the late era? 

 

 

Let's switch gears a bit and go back to your first post again. Are you starting to understand why, when someone (the OP) asks "what Shadowbane was like and why so many people want Crowfall to be like Shadowbane", bringing up the fact that the game was a buggy mess is absolutely irrelevant? The OP doesn't care, that doesn't tell him anything about why people want this game to be like Shadowbane. The only way it could possibly be relevant information for the OP is if you are trying to suggest to him that the real intention of the people on these forums who are lobbying to make this game more like Shadowbane is that they are trying to turn Crowfall into a buggy mess also.

 

Nope it isn't irrelevant, because the OP needs to understand the context of who might answer those questions, why they might answer the way they will, and what shadowbane actually was. 

 

If that is actually what you were trying to relay to the OP, it's one of the most absurd things I've ever heard, and I stand by my previous assessment that you are indeed stupid. If that isn't what you were trying to say, then due to the previously established fact that information about how buggy the game was is completely useless to the OP, I can only conclude that you said it either as an underhanded attempt to lower the OPs opinion of Shadowbane with irrelevant information (which is stupid), that you didn't even realize that the information was completely useless (also stupid). Or maybe you just like to throw insults at Shadowbane because you get some weird enjoyment from it or to intentionally annoy other posters on this forum, which I'm sorry to say, is also very stupid.

 

You can sit here and call me stupid, but your arguments are weak, and ad hominems are boring.  I don't enjoy insulting shadowbane, I just don't like the misinformation people spread about how great it was.  If people want to see a functional version of shadowbane they can go play on an emulator, those versions are pretty stable, and even they are a joke.  Then they can go ahead and imagine the game crashing every 10 minutes at launch and even more frequently in crowded areas.  Then you can talk about what a great game shadowbane was. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's pretty simple...

 

Think about the first game you ever played that you became addicted to. This game was a MMO released after Ultima Online which was the first truly addictive online MMO.

 

Now, in Ultima Online you could grief people into quitting the game (Until Gordon Walton came along. See: Trammel).

 

Shadowbane was the same. You could kill low levels almost anywhere. You could siege someone's city because you had a bad day. You could play a thief and steal their hard work literally from their pocket.

 

There's more to it, but you said explain it like you were 5. Not cry about it like you're 5, like some other poster has done....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And Crowfall is a spiritual successor to Shadowbane, not shadowbane 2.0. I wouldn't call this game Shadowbane 2.0. Some ideas are the same, but they grabbed as much ideas from other games as they did Shadowbane. Shadowbane 2.0 would be better imo (if people could realize in a modern age tab target wouldn't still exist and that an epic failure of a launch or sb.exe wouldn't exist).

 

World of Warcraft was inspired by several games, but it was its own game as much as Crowfall is a hodge podge of ideas. The one good point that VikingNail made is the reason you're hearing so much about Shadowbane is that we are the vocal majority on these forums. We were board warriors by day and siegers by night.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for all the info. I think I get it :D

 

Can i just say that one thing that's gonna be important for this game to survive is a good community - regardless of great game mechanics or technical delivery, so I hope people can chill. Its a bit sad even in this thread to see you all hammering at each other. It's only a game, right?

 

Someone was nice enough to point me to the Shadowbane Emulator site, but I have to say I thought it was pretty grim to read through those forums: Theres a lot of hate going round that for me is kinda game killing. I hope it doesn't spread here. It was enough to keep me from trying out SB to see what the fuss is about. I don't think I'm the only gamer who checks out the community first to see what the fuss is about.

 

Shadowbane sounds interesting.. but i think a lot of new players who don't know about it (anyone under the age of 20?) are gonna judge CF totally on its own merits... and that starts pretty much with a first impression of the game community. People who are passionate often forget their own volume levels, but noone likes being yelled at. just my 2c.


www.CrowfallRP.com


Disclaimer: My RP with you might become a public story: https://soundcloud.com/shiv-mahon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nope, the game literally crashed every 10 minutes, and if you deny that you simply didn't play it when the game was most populated.   It not only crashed every 10 minutes, in large sieges it probably crashed more like every 3 minutes. 

 

And no, eating its own didn't cause the loss in population, you clearly didn't play at launch.  What caused the massive loss in population was the fact that the game could not run properly, was poorly optimized, the entire service got hacked and people were worried about their cc information, etc. 

 

 

 

VKN's experience =/= to all players experiences.  (Perhaps surprisingly, the universe of player experience cannot be extrapolated from just Vikingnail's).

 

As a stated previously, some players did experience game breaking crashes at launch.  To deny that is unreasonable.  To deny that for many, the crashes were occasional and not  game breaking is likewise unreasonable (and belied by the fact that players did in fact stick around.)

 

I played from late beta to end cycle of SB.  I played day one of launch. I participating in racing to plant one of the first cities on a launch day server. I even chronicled it: http://www.winterblades.net/history 

 

But no need to take just my word for it.  Winterblades collected others accounts of the launch servers, which can be read here: http://winterblades.net/history/library 

 

No matter how vociferously Vikingnail continues on his crusade, such hot air needs to be taken in context and viewed with a grain of salt.  VKN had a bad experience.  His game crashed a lot, it was frustrating and not reasonably playable.  He quit. His knowledge base is from that sliver of time played and his opinions stem from his negative experience.  He was not the only one.  

 

There were however some, likely many, and potentially even most, that did not experience said SB.Exe crashes on a game breaking level. Those folks went on to actually experience Shadowbane.

Edited by angelmar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for all the info. I think I get it :D

 

Can i just say that one thing that's gonna be important for this game to survive is a good community - regardless of great game mechanics or technical delivery, so I hope people can chill. Its a bit sad even in this thread to see you all hammering at each other. It's only a game, right?

 

Someone was nice enough to point me to the Shadowbane Emulator site, but I have to say I thought it was pretty grim to read through those forums: Theres a lot of hate going round that for me is kinda game killing. I hope it doesn't spread here. It was enough to keep me from trying out SB to see what the fuss is about. I don't think I'm the only gamer who checks out the community first to see what the fuss is about.

 

Shadowbane sounds interesting.. but i think a lot of new players who don't know about it (anyone under the age of 20?) are gonna judge CF totally on its own merits... and that starts pretty much with a first impression of the game community. People who are passionate often forget their own volume levels, but noone likes being yelled at. just my 2c.

 

Shadowbane's community was unique. We had roleplayers alongside L33t dudes playing. PvE was an unnecessary evil and toward the mid-life of the game, people cared more about PvP skills than PvE prowess. There were brilliant siege commanders, spec group geniuses, city builders, and solo greats.

 

The community was toxic but we were toxic together. We griefed each other to the point where you were broke beyond all measure. You built yourself back up, more often better than ever. Any guild worth anything was a phoenix. We fought in game as viciously as we fought on the forums.

 

As for shadowbane emulator community, it depends which one. Sbemu is a project ran and controlled by a handful of people with more resemblance to a modern community. That emulator ran as bad or worse than the game when it was live. Magicbane is a community ran by largely absent admins, with superior coding skills, and huge egos with even bigger mouths (I have 5k posts there as well....). But the game runs better there than it did live.

 

Both emus are largely dead and I don't recommend for any modern player to try the game. It's like playing Xbox 360 and wanting to try out Atari games.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...