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Deloria

Shadowbane... please explain it to me like I'm 5.

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that whole "skill ceiling" concept is so ambigious and subjective. As far as I know there is no objective criteria that would allow you to compare "skill" required for this or that game.

 

to compare one thing to another you have to first measure both.

 

And since there is no unit of measurement for skill yet,  I suggest we measure it in Vikingnails. Of course it should be a fractional number since 1VN is something very few are able to achieve if ever.

 

like  shadowbane =0,5 VN

Quake = 0,7 VN

 

where the game  requires a team to play it should be VN power N. Where N is the number of people required to play. 

 

For example quake 2x2 = 0,7 squared VNs :D

Edited by rajah

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that whole "skill ceiling" concept is so ambigious and subjective. As far as I know there is no objective criteria that would allow you to compare "skill" required this or that game

There's plenty of objective criteria. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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that whole "skill ceiling" concept is so ambigious and subjective. As far as I know there is no objective criteria that would allow you to compare "skill" required for this or that game.

 

to compare one thing to another you have to first measure both.

 

And since there is no unit of measurement for skill yet,  I suggest we measure it in Vikingnails. Of course it should be a fractional number since 1VN is something very few are able to achieve if ever.

 

like  shadowbane =0,5 VN

Quake = 0,7 VN

 

where the game  requires a team to play it should be VN power N. Where N is the number of people required to play. 

 

For example quake 2x2 = 0,7 squared VNs :D

 

Skill can be measured relatively easily.  You are basically just looking at how fast people have to think, vs how deep the decision they have to make is vs what kind of mechanical input and reaction time is required. 

 

If you look at RTS for example it requires insane mechanical input and reaction time (250-500 actions per minute) on top of very layered tactical decisions.  Which is why professional RTS takes the most skill of any video game genre.

 

If a game does not require you to make tough decisions quickly, and does not require a lot of mechanical skill, the skill-ceiling is obviously quite low.

 

So whereas professional RTS play might approach 1 VN, shadowbane would be closer to like .001 VN. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Lets assume that mechanical input can be measured by average number of clicks required per unit of time.

 

How do you exactly do you measure "decision depth" and "how fast does one have to think" ?

 

Your calculation totally excludes social skills that are non existent in RTS or FPS but were a necessity to win in games where numbers matter. That's a whole layer that was emphasized in Shadowbane, but non existent in RTS.

 

Also what about handling "non-standard" situations that are common in open-world pvp (going 1 vs X or going with a non standard set-up) and much less common in FPS and RTS, where you have a limited number of maps and arguably limited number of FOTM strategies that can reasonably expected to give you a win. 

Edited by rajah

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How do you exactly do you measure "decision depth" and "how fast does one have to think" ?

 

Your calculation totally excludes social skills that are non existent in RTS or FPS but were a necessity to win in games where numbers matter.

Social skills are pretty low on the player skill totem.  It's pretty easy to be whatever persona you want to be on the internet. 

 

You measure it by objectively looking at the decisions and time required to think.  For example anticipating the need to interrupt a spell that has a .25 second cast time. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Social skills are pretty low on the player skill totem.  It's pretty easy to be whatever persona you want to be on the internet. 

 

By social skills I mean ability to assemble and maintain numbers of people required to reach your goals, often under pressure. That was a staple skill in Shadowbane and non existent in other games. You can pretend to be any persona you want, but to lead and manage people you need certain abilities.

 

You measure it by objectively looking at the decisions and time required to think.  For example anticipating the need to interrupt a spell that has a .25 second cast time. 

 

That's not really thinking, more like acting subconsciously based on a number of cues, kind of like anticipating a traffic light change.

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Social skills are pretty low on the player skill totem.  It's pretty easy to be whatever persona you want to be on the internet. 

 

By social skills I mean ability to assemble and maintain numbers of people required to reach your goals, often under pressure. That was a staple skill in Shadowbane and non existent in other games. You can pretend to be any persona you want, but to lead and manage people you need certain abilities.

 

You measure it by objectively looking at the decisions and time required to think.  For example anticipating the need to interrupt a spell that has a .25 second cast time. 

 

That's not really thinking, more like acting subconsciously based on a number of cues, kind of like anticipating a traffic light change.

 

It's pretty much thinking at a rapid pace that many people would have to take long conscious thoughts to determine.

 

It's kind of like when you watch people game... the top gamers seem fluid with their decisions, the slower gamers take a long time to figure out their decisions and you can literally see their thought process through how slow they react and how their character moves.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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*Pops out of bunker*

 

Was there any RP in Shadowbane? - like Roleplay guilds who managed to hang in there? How did RP work when it was free for all?

 

*Pops back in again*

Lots of RP based on what kind of races or classes one would let into their guilds.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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It's pretty much thinking at a rapid pace that many people would have to take long conscious thoughts to determine.

 

It's kind of like when you watch people game... the top gamers seem fluid with their decisions, the slower gamers take a long time to figure out their decisions and you can literally see their thought process through how slow they react and how their character moves.

 

My point is that in gaming in general and in competitive games in particular there is a considerably limited number of unique stimuli that your brain has to react to. You see a stimuli and subconsciously react to it. At first you do it consciously but with repetition it moves to other parts of the brain. Kind of like driving a car, hard when you start and a month later you do not even think about it. That it is not active thinking that requires you to consciously analyze a problem and actually think about it.

 

Again my point is that there are different types of brain activity that you can define as "thinking" and that some of them can be engaged to a greater degree in certain types of games and some will be more engaged in other types of games, that require planning or communication for example.

 

So this is really a pretty complex subject.

Edited by rajah

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*Pops out of bunker*

 

Was there any RP in Shadowbane? - like Roleplay guilds who managed to hang in there? How did RP work when it was free for all?

 

*Pops back in again*

There were some guilds that were more RP than others.  I remember this one Elves only guild or elves and their Mino slaves.  The RP consisted of scripted text when they would fling themselves into battle; or the fact that they only allowed Elves or Minotaur's in the guild.

 

Free for all, wasn't really about everyone against everyone, and won't be here in CF.  Free for all is just a way to say that non-group friendlies can be killed just as easy as enemies.  In a game like WoW you can't kill an ally, you can only kill the opposite faction.  In the dregs, we will be able to kill anyone we please.  It allows for guilds to help curb stupidity of their members.  There were lots of times in SB where we would drop someone from group and friendly fire on them, killing them, and sending them back to the guild city.

 

Most of the servers were called ARAC for All Races All Classes, which allowed any combination of race and class.  There was one server though, and I can't remember what it was called, that limited the group make up by the "charters" that were used in guild establishment.  Basically it was the closest thing to an RP server in SB.

Edited by Teufel

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My point is that in gaming in general and in competitive games in particular there is a considerably limited number of unique stimuli that your brain has to react to. You see a stimuli and subconsciously react to it. At first you do it consciously but with repetition it moves to other parts of the brain. Kind of like driving a car, hard when you start and a month later you do not even think about it. That it is not active thinking that requires you to consciously analyze a problem and actually think about it.

 

Again my point is that there are different types of brain activity that you can define as "thinking" and that some of them can be engaged to a greater degree in certain types of games and some will be more engaged in other types of games, that require planning or communication for example.

 

So this is really a pretty complex subject.

Yes and in games with a limited number of unique stimuli, you could call those games low skill-ceiling. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Yes and in games with a limited number of unique stimuli, you could call those games low skill-ceiling.

Or, it could be a case of a very high skill ceiling is required to succeed. . . for the number of stimuli present within the domain.

 

This of course is dependent on how those challenges/skill requirements are CALIBRATED within that domain. If they are calibrated to require more skill, more "skill" is required. If they are calibrated to be ez-mode, then little skill will be required.

 

Generally speaking we could say having more to pay attention to is more challenging. At the same time a domain with fewer skills could be calibrated to cause more pressure (focus) on the skills that are present.

 

It is a very complex subject as Rajah pointed out. I like his analogy regarding "training" and repetition causing additional levels of thought to be possible as basics move to more automatic "twitch" response achieved from repetitious training. This can be seen in professional fighters, and the crème of the crop (IMO) are those that have trained (and have the talent) their physical skills to the point where little thought is required to (for instance) block, jab, maintain balance, etc., so that their fore-brain is more freed to think and plan at the same time, at a different level. George St. Pierre is a great example of a highly skilled fighter not only in the twitch department, but in the overall strategy, ability to adapt, and tactics used in a fight.

 

Doing something quicker than someone else isn't necessarily, all by itself, the sole definition of "skill".

 

I'm actually unsure where the whole debate over what "skill" is started.

 

What's the goal in the discussion?

Edited by Bramble

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Or, it could be a case of a very high skill ceiling is required to succeed. . . for the number of stimuli present within the domain.

 

This of course is dependent on how those challenges/skill requirements are CALIBRATED within that domain. If they are calibrated to require more skill, more skill is required. If they are calibrated to be ez-mode, then little skill will be required.

 

It is a very complex subject as Rajah pointed out. I like his analogy regarding "training" and repetition causing additional levels of thought to be possible as basics move to more automatic "twitch" response achieved from repetitious training. This can be seen in professional fighters, and the crème of the crop (IMO) are those that have trained (and have the talent) their physical skills to the point where little thought is required to (for instance) block, jab, maintain balance, etc., so that their fore-brain is more freed to think and plan at the same time, at a different level. George St. Pierre is a great example of a highly skilled fighter not only in the twitch department, but in the overall strategy, ability to adapt, and tactics used in a fight.

 

Doing something quicker than someone else isn't necessarily, all by itself, the sole definition of "skill".

 

I'm actually unsure where the whole debate over what "skill" is started.

 

What's the goal in the discussion?

Nah low amount of unique stimuli speaks to simplicity aka low skill-ceiling.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Shadowbane 1.0 didn't work, shadowbane 2.0 wouldn't work because pvpers these days are much more skilled than they ever were before (you can look at professional gaming to see this) and there would be no point in making a low skill-ceiling pvp game.  I mean CU can probably stay alive post-launch, and crowfall could cater to a lower skill-ceiling crowd and probably stay afloat, but seriously what respectable pvper would be content playing a game with a low skill-ceiling when there are gamers out there doing much more crazy stuff.  No competitive pvper would be cool with that.

 

Crowfall and CU aren't trying to be the next esport, nor are they trying to attract those type of players. I know quite a few people who have played the professional circuits in CSGO, Heroes of the Storm and LoL. Most of which straight up suck when it comes to playing anything outside of those games. It's like trying to say a professional baseball player will excel at any sport they play, which is clearly not the case. The whole concept of low skill, high skill is extremely subjective. What you might consider "low skill" someone else might consider "high skill", so where do you make the distinction? Crowfall will never be a "high skill" twitchfest; even aiming in CF isn't all that difficult due to the pacing. We're not talking about Unreal Tournament/Quake level crackhead shooter here. However, it will require you to establish a large knowledge base when it comes to knowing what all the archetypes do. The "skill" will be what you do with this knowledge and how you execute your strategy.

Edited by helix

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Crowfall and CU aren't trying to be the next esport, nor are they trying to attract those type of players. I know quite a few people who have played the professional circuits in CSGO, Heroes of the Storm and LoL. Most of which straight up suck when it comes to playing anything outside of those games. It's like trying to say a professional baseball player will excel at any support they play, which is clearly not the case. The whole concept of low skill, high skill is extremely subjective. What you might consider "low skill" someone else might consider "high skill", so where do you make the distinction? Crowfall will never be a "high skill" twitchfest; even aiming in CF isn't all that difficult due to the pacing. We're not talking about Unreal Tournament/Quake level crackhead shooter here. However, it will require you to establish a large knowledge base when it comes to knowing what all the archetypes do. The "skill" will be what you do with this knowledge and how you execute your strategy.

I can't believe you guys still respond to his nonsense.

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that whole "skill ceiling" concept is so ambigious and subjective. As far as I know there is no objective criteria that would allow you to compare "skill" required for this or that game.

 

to compare one thing to another you have to first measure both.

 

And since there is no unit of measurement for skill yet,  I suggest we measure it in Vikingnails. Of course it should be a fractional number since 1VN is something very few are able to achieve if ever.

 

like  shadowbane =0,5 VN

Quake = 0,7 VN

 

where the game  requires a team to play it should be VN power N. Where N is the number of people required to play. 

 

For example quake 2x2 = 0,7 squared VNs :D

Here is the skill ceiling you will need. You will need whatever "skill cieling" your heart desires to defeat my 100 players (separated into groups/channels,coordinated through commander chat/whisper in VOIP). I will designate called targets and strategy objectives in the open field. Each channel will have another commander that will relay my commands to keep noise down and lessen confusion. So I would say... "STFU and Listen" skills would probably be one. "Group Coordination and Tactics" skill would be another.  And then there is the "Numbers on the Field" skill. I think that about covers it.

 

Oh! Almost forgot! "Then there is the all important "Alliance/Diplomacy/Call in Reinforcement because I'm Getting My Ass Kicked" skill,just in case the ceiling falls in and all!


.

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Crowfall and CU aren't trying to be the next esport, nor are they trying to attract those type of players. I know quite a few people who have played the professional circuits in CSGO, Heroes of the Storm and LoL. Most of which straight up suck when it comes to playing anything outside of those games. It's like trying to say a professional baseball player will excel at any support they play, which is clearly not the case. The whole concept of low skill, high skill is extremely subjective. What you might consider "low skill" someone else might consider "high skill", so where do you make the distinction? Crowfall will never be a "high skill" twitchfest; even aiming in CF isn't all that difficult due to the pacing. We're not talking about Unreal Tournament/Quake level crackhead shooter here. However, it will require you to establish a large knowledge base when it comes to knowing what all the archetypes do. The "skill" will be what you do with this knowledge and how you execute your strategy.

It doesn't matter if they are trying to be the next esport, they still need to have a respectable skill-ceiling for a pvp game.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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