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Deloria

Shadowbane... please explain it to me like I'm 5.

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I can't believe you guys still respond to his nonsense.

 

I'm bored at work  :P

 

It doesn't matter if they are trying to be the next esport, they still need to have a respectable skill-ceiling for a pvp game.

 

What's your definition of a respectable skill ceiling? IMO it's when you can easily see the difference between bad players and good players. 

 

While the difference between decent players and good players might not be as obvious in CF, it sure as custard easy to tell a bad player from a good player.

Edited by helix

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CF must not require extremely high skill or extremely low skill (how ever you measure that). If it is too high it will be too difficult for many players whilst too low skill will alienate many and become repetitive and boring. The combat must strike the right balance to provide a tactical foundation for the strategic aspect of the game.


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CF must not require extremely high skill or extremely low skill (how ever you measure that). If it is too high it will be too difficult for many players whilst too low skill will alienate many and become repetitive and boring. The combat must strike the right balance to provide a tactical foundation for the strategic aspect of the game.

This is correct.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Can somebody explain why so many people want this game to be like an old game from 2003?  I ask only to learn.

 

I'll just point out, the OP was asking why people want it to be like SB, not why they shouldn't, or what is wrong with people who do.

 

I understand though, Crowfall's connection to Shadowbane is upsetting to people who have negative feelings toward Shadowbane and its players.


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I'll just point out, the OP was asking why people want it to be like SB, not why they shouldn't, or what is wrong with people who do.

 

I understand though, Crowfall's connection to Shadowbane is upsetting to people who have negative feelings toward Shadowbane and its players.

Yea it was important for the OP to know why people want it to be like SB, and the exact thought process going on with those people, and not necessarily just the thought process they want to believe is going on.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I think its important to differentiate between high intensity MOBA / Strategy game sessions and the long haul of an mmo campaign. I think (hope) Crowfall offers more the slow dramatic build up of the campaign, with a few intense firefights at moba-adreniline rush levels along the way. So to me it seems that its kinda both a sprinters game and a marathon runners game, if you see what I mean.

 

I played Tera and I still think no game ever really was as satisfying for just the smash boom bang fighting as that.. I would be almost as sentimental for that kind of thing as I think the SB crowd are for their bits and pieces.

So I would be very happy if Crowfall could have something nice and similar at the combat level to Tera.. but honestly CF appeals to me far more for the campaign side of things. So long as fighting gameplay is balanced and not boring in CF I'm perfectly happy - I don't need it to be as good as Tera (obviously my subjective highpoint). 

I'm not sure if it takes more or less skill to play a Strategy game as it does to play an FPS... I think its just different skillsets. The secret sauce will be in how Crowfall manages to integrate the two gaming aspects. If they do it well I think the sum will be sooo much greater than its parts.

 

Just my 2 crows

Edited by Deloria

www.CrowfallRP.com


Disclaimer: My RP with you might become a public story: https://soundcloud.com/shiv-mahon

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I'm bored at work  :P

 

 

What's your definition of a respectable skill ceiling? IMO it's when you can easily see the difference between bad players and good players. 

 

While the difference between decent players and good players might not be as obvious in CF, it sure as custard easy to tell a bad player from a good player.

To me a respectable skill ceiling in 2016 is a game that is at least comparable to the most popular casual games out there. 

 

So we are looking at a skill-ceiling where the best players can at least shine as much as they can in something like WoW arena or League of Legends.

 

Anything lower is then worse than the most popular casual games, which is just a sad standard to be below.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I think its important to differentiate between high intensity MOBA / Strategy game sessions and the long haul of an mmo campaign. I think (hope) Crowfall offers more the slow dramatic build up of the campaign, with a few intense firefights at moba-adreniline rush levels along the way. So to me it seems that its kinda both a sprinters game and a marathon runners game, if you see what I mean.

 

I played Tera and I still think no game ever really was as satisfying for just the smash boom bang fighting as that.. I would be almost as sentimental for that kind of thing as I think the SB crowd are for their bits and pieces.

So I would be very happy if Crowfall could have something nice and similar at the combat level to Tera.. but honestly CF appeals to me far more for the campaign side of things. So long as fighting gameplay is balanced and not boring in CF I'm perfectly happy - I don't need it to be as good as Tera (obviously my subjective highpoint). 

I'm not sure if it takes more or less skill to play a Strategy game as it does to play an FPS... I think its just different skillsets. The secret sauce will be in how Crowfall manages to integrate the two gaming aspects. If they do it well I think the sum will be sooo much greater than its parts.

 

Just my 2 crows

Coincidentally tera was supposed to be one of the games that crowfall's combat drew inspiration from... hopefully it achieves a similar but perhaps more western feel as often times certain elements of eastern mmo combat just naturally don't mesh well with western audiences. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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*Pops out of bunker*

 

Was there any RP in Shadowbane? - like Roleplay guilds who managed to hang in there? How did RP work when it was free for all?

 

*Pops back in again*

 

There were a number of RP and RP-PvP guilds in Shadowbane which would conduct a number of RP events and even engage in cross-guild storylines. Most of the RP in the game died out by late 2006, early 07, however.

 

I'll give you some examples from the unofficial RP server, Mourning:

 

Aeturnas Trinitas: An alliance of human noble houses, the Church of the All-Father, and the Temple of the Cleansing Flame.

The Sundered Guard: A nation centered around Druids and Rangers who's main focus was protecting nature.

Sanguine Wild: Their main focus were the various were-form disciplines you could apply to a character, worshiped "The Beast Lords".

Kingdom of Dragonscale: Led by the memorable King Steven Dragonscale, they were a light-RP guild who welcomed and trained new players.

The Undead Lords: Cultists devoted to Myrkul, God of the dead...yes the same one from Forgotten Realms. (VERY light-rp, heavy pvp)

The Shipwrecked Pirates: A motley crew of pirates stuck on land when their ship, The Salty Maid, ran aground. (light-RP, heavy PvP)

Daeriath Midranell: (The Masters of Twilight): The elven alliance comprised of the militant House Avari (light-RP, heavy PvP) and the more approachable Court of Evermore (heavy RP, light PvP).

Pride of Vashteera: An Amazon RP guild, go read the Assassin archetype page for a clue as to what they were like. (light pvp, heavy RP).

Servants of the Shroud: Were originally a Shade-only RP guild who expanded their ranks to Vampires when the Throne of Oblivion expansion released.

Morloch's Vengeance: Worshipers of the Chaos God Morloch, they were lead by priests of Chaos. At one point they had a very interesting chaos influenced human faction called "The Catharsian Empire" which was eventually destroyed by an alliance led by the Order of the Pink Pansies...don't ask. (light-rp, heavy pvp)

Edited by soulein

Shadowbane - House Avari/Hy'shen
"Gimp elves get good elves killed." - Belina

Avari Discord - https://discord.gg/Bch24PV

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To me a respectable skill ceiling in 2016 is a game that is at least comparable to the most popular casual games out there. 

 

So we are looking at a skill-ceiling where the best players can at least shine as much as they can in something like WoW arena or League of Legends.

 

Anything lower is then worse than the most popular casual games, which is just a sad standard to be below.

 

You are going to be very, very disappointed. This is not the droid you are looking for. Everything that matters, that is winning a campaign, controlling POI, city siege etc. will be on the group, and more likely multi-group level. Not 3v3 or 5v5. This will in no way resemble a WoW arena or MOBA. That type of "gaming mindset" will more than likely be a liability here. 

 

You sound like "That Guy". Every SB player knows him, every guild had one or two. It's the guy in that jumps out and starts hacking at the centaur huntress when everyone else is attacking called support. "That Guy" then screams for mad heals when he gets focused and gets disgruntled when he dies. I don't currently maintain a high expectation for your ability to achieve even a moderate level of success in this game.

 

I don't know why I keep doing this.


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CF must not require extremely high skill or extremely low skill (how ever you measure that). If it is too high it will be too difficult for many players whilst too low skill will alienate many and become repetitive and boring. The combat must strike the right balance to provide a tactical foundation for the strategic aspect of the game.

 

Totally agree with this. While skill is subjective, some games require you to juggle several different layers of complexity at once and require different levels of reaction time. Sure, you may call that twitch skill only, and obviously there's a lot more to skill - raid leaders for example need a different skill set, guild administrators need to be good at diplomacy and logistics, etc. But strictly speaking about the combat aspect, at least to me it is kind of obvious some games require a lot more than others. 

 

Just as an example, while fighting solo or small scale on ESO you need to: be totally aware of all the animations being cast around you, so that you can interrupt enemies casting the more troublesome powers before they fire off, which can be difficult because most animations are very fast, you need to know which powers to dodge, which to block and which to interrupt (3 different ways to defend yourself, not a single 1 button escape), you need to manage your resources to be able to break free of CCs, while also bearing in mind there's 2 different ways to break CC depending on the type of power used, one with the break free button and one with the dodge button. As mentioned, all animations are much faster in ESO, and burst damage is much higher, so your reaction time needs to be a lot faster than CF as well. There's more to it but I'll stop here. I won't even mention animation cancelling and weaving. 

 

Meanwhile on CF, CC immunity works passively, so all you really need to worry about is using your iframe at the right time to break free of a CC while in a pinch. Animations are much longer and all hard CCs are hidden behind long combo chains, so it requires a much slower reaction time to avoid those. An archetype will usually have only 1 or 0 active defense buttons (block for knight, dodge for rangers, etc), so again, much less complexity involved. Some Druid mechanics like aurora emitter or blight orbs were the first thing introduced to CF combat I've seen that added a little extra complexity to it. And I see a lot of people asking for those to be nerfed already. 

 

Just to illustrate this point, while playing ESO I was using 13-15 buttons on my mouse. On CF I've only been using 8-9 buttons. ESO is not an esport, far from it. But the higher skill ceiling there allows individual players or small groups who are good at the game to really shine. And that's coming from a game that has mechanics all in favor of stacking numbers. 

 

I don't think the skill ceiling in CF needs to be super high, and in fact I find combat pretty enjoyable a this point. I have fun with it. But I kinda hope for more. Because the lower the skill ceiling is, and the less complexity it has, the more we're going to tip the game in favor of the people who focus on diplomacy and political skills and roll around with armies of 100+. That's not a bad thing, but I think the game should cater to all playstyles. That's why a balance in skill level like Dirkoff mentioned would be preferable for me. 


 

 

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You are going to be very, very disappointed. This is not the droid you are looking for. Everything that matters, that is winning a campaign, controlling POI, city siege etc. will be on the group, and more likely multi-group level. Not 3v3 or 5v5. This will in no way resemble a WoW arena or MOBA. That type of "gaming mindset" will more than likely be a liability here. 

 

You sound like "That Guy". Every SB player knows him, every guild had one or two. It's the guy in that jumps out and starts hacking at the centaur huntress when everyone else is attacking called support. "That Guy" then screams for mad heals when he gets focused and gets disgruntled when he dies. I don't currently maintain a high expectation for your ability to achieve even a moderate level of success in this game.

 

I don't know why I keep doing this.

I think more than likely it's the more fanatical sb fans that will be disappointed.  Action combat is here to stay.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I think more than likely it's the more fanatical sb fans that will be disappointed.  Action combat is here to stay.

That changes nothing in my statement. I detest tab target. I largely played Mortal Online afterward and am currently enjoying Gloria Victus. Both of which are full/partial loot directional action combat games.


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I think more than likely it's the more fanatical sb fans that will be disappointed.  Action combat is here to stay.

 

Almost all of us are on board with action combat. We're just excited about the game for other, more important reasons. I hope this clears up your confusion.


Shadowbane - House Avari/Hy'shen
"Gimp elves get good elves killed." - Belina

Avari Discord - https://discord.gg/Bch24PV

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Almost all of us are on board with action combat. We're just excited about the game for other, more important reasons. I hope this clears up your confusion.

Yea but as they've stated combat is the most important feature in the game... so those other reasons aren't really more important, at least not if you believe in ACE and their vision.

 

Maybe certain players from certain backgrounds would rather project their own values though.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I think more than likely it's the more fanatical sb fans that will be disappointed.  Action combat is here to stay.

 

Dunno, seems like "tab targeted" players will have little to no issues playing CF. I wouldn't even call CF an action combat game to be honest. It's a game with "aiming", but in terms of pacing, it's fairly slow (slower than what I'm used to).

 

Games like Smite, Gigantic, GW2, Tera, BDO, DFO are all faster and more "action oriented" IMO.

 

Characters outside of RMB move slow enough to make aiming pretty trivial as well.

Edited by helix

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Dunno, seems like "tab targeted" players will have little to no issues playing CF. I wouldn't even call CF an action combat game to be honest. It's a game with "aiming", but in terms of pacing, it's fairly slow.

 

Characters outside of RMB move slow enough to make aiming pretty trivial as well.

Actually we saw some of the more passionate fans from certain other games at the start of testing oh so long ago, and even at a slower pace than the game is now, they really struggled with the game.  I know lag and client controller and stuff were an issue back then, and I played through it, and it seems like any decent player would have learned to compensate for it within half a minute.  Some people really had trouble even with basic steering and aiming.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Almost all of us are on board with action combat. We're just excited about the game for other, more important reasons. I hope this clears up your confusion.

Nothing will ever clear up the confusion, at least until open beta, then it will be clear. Somehow, the statement of "having to get combat right, because people won't play with poorly made socksty combat" became "action combat is the game". Siege, territory control, POI control, crafting, large scale PvP, character customization is the game. That what was sold, that is what "most" of us bought. It's also what most understand., though not all unfortunately.


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Actually we saw some of the more passionate fans from certain other games at the start of testing oh so long ago, and even at a slower pace than the game is now, they really struggled with the game.  I know lag and client controller and stuff were an issue back then, and I played through it, and it seems like any decent player would have learned to compensate for it within half a minute.  Some people really had trouble even with basic steering and aiming.

 

 I don't hold that against them. The server side controller made the game feel like complete fortitude (b-o-l-l-o-c-ks is censored, what a disney land, sjw infested world we live in). The way aiming (the camera functionality in general) and movement worked back then was a huge gripe for me (and many others) as well. I played through it, but I don't blame people for quitting and coming back when they switched to a client and tightened up the camera, cause it was just bad back then.

Edited by helix

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 I don't hold that against them. The server side controller made the game feel like complete fortitude. The way aiming (the camera functionality in general) and movement worked back then was a huge gripe for me (and many others) as well. I played through it as well, but I don't blame people for quitting and coming back when they switched to a client and tightened up the camera, cause it was just bad back then.

Quitting and coming back is understandable, but if a player struggles with basic movement in an action combat game, it makes you wonder how they will do if the game has small hitboxes etc.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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