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Shadowbane... please explain it to me like I'm 5.


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Almost all of us are on board with action combat. We're just excited about the game for other, more important reasons. I hope this clears up your confusion.

 

As has been stated before and by the game developers themselves the action combat style is at the heart of the game. It doesn't make the other elements of CF any less important. All the other elements including the different campaigns modes, the EKs, the trading, guilds  etc. will make CF a great game. Its the combination of the strategy (i.e. the big picture) and the tactical (i.e. PvP battles, character development) working together making a playing experience lacking in current MMOs.

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Shadowbane gave players and guilds the ability to forge the game world with freedom, repercussions for behavior, reasons to fight, and a sense of purpose with self owned cities that could be sacked. T

It was very much like Crowfall will be. No questing. It was a game of conquest, city building, territory control, politics, alliances, subterfuge and betrayal. I've attended a twelve hour siege. I've

That, and Todd himself has made the fact fairly clear before KS.   And its the only game to ever pull these systems together. In short, it was an amazing and long term war / siege experience with ma

Actually we saw some of the more passionate fans from certain other games at the start of testing oh so long ago, and even at a slower pace than the game is now, they really struggled with the game.  I know lag and client controller and stuff were an issue back then, and I played through it, and it seems like any decent player would have learned to compensate for it within half a minute.  Some people really had trouble even with basic steering and aiming.

 

Wait, so the people who compensated for Shadowbane's poor performance at launch, lag, sb.exe, etc and stuck with the game are bads. Yet you couldn't compensate for a bad launch and you quit soon after.

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Wait, so the people who compensated for Shadowbane's poor performance at launch, lag, sb.exe, etc and stuck with the game are bads. Yet you couldn't compensate for a bad launch and you quit soon after.

Well one situation is about testing a game in development, the other is about a released game that lost almost all of its players due to being unplayable. 

 

Not really the same situation despite what some fans might try to make themselves believe. 

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I'm an incurable Shadowbane fanboy. That being said it wasn't all that easy all the time. It was hard work, blood, sweat and tears.

 

Despite all that the conclusion is that everybody involved in Shadowbane from beta, release, till the end, the developers and the player base

showed tremendous aplomb.

 

 

The following story will explain you what it means:

 

 

His Lordship was in the study at Downton Abbey when the butler approached and coughed discreetly.

"May I ask you a question my lord?"

"Go ahead Carson " said his lordship.

"I am doing the crossword in The Times and I have found a word I am not too clear on."

"What word is that?" said his lordship.

"Aplomb" , my lord.

"Now that's a difficult one to explain. I would say it is self assurance or complete composure."

"Thank you, my lord, but I'm still a little confused."

"Let me give you an example to make it clearer. Do you remember a few months ago the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge arrived to spend a weekend with us?"

"I remember the occasion very well, my lord. It gave the staff and myself much pleasure to look after them."

"Also", continued the Earl of Grantham, "do you remember Will plucked a rose for Kate in the rose garden?"

"I was present on that occasion, my lord, ministering to their needs."

"While plucking the rose a thorn embedded itself in his thumb very deeply."

Carson replied, "I witnessed the incident, my lord, and saw the Duchess herself remove the thorn and bandage his thumb with her own dainty handkerchief."

"That evening the prick on his thumb was so sore, Kate had to cut up his venison from our own estate, even though it was extremely tender."

"Yes, my lord, I did see everything that transpired that evening."

"The next morning while you were pouring coffee for Her Ladyship, Kate enquired of Will with a loud voice, 'Darling does your prick still throb?'"

And you, Carson, did not spill one drop of coffee!

Now that is aplomb!

 

 

 

See what mean ? :lol:

 

 

Edited by Belantis

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The argument SB 2.0 would be bad because SB 1.0 was a laggy buggy pos from a technical standpoint is weak.  Who in their right mind would assume fans of Shadowbane are wanting to recreate the laggy-buggy-pos aspects of the game when discussing features for CF??  I would have thought it beyond question the fans (and Todd himself) loved the gameplay concepts and vision of SB--which are the ones forming CF--not the .exe errors.

 

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As has been stated before and by the game developers themselves the action combat style is at the heart of the game.

That certainly was not said, by anyone in development of CF ever.

 

Maybe you're paraphrasing, who knows.

 

I'll go further: if a dev did say that, they'd be wrong. Make great combat as the "heart of the game" and screw up the (really important) SB / siege stuff. See how that plays out for ya ...

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That certainly was not said, by anyone in development of CF ever.

 

Maybe you're paraphrasing, who knows.

 

I'll go further: if a dev did say that, they'd be wrong. Make great combat as the "heart of the game" and screw up the (really important) SB / siege stuff. See how that plays out for ya ...

Nope jtc and thomas blair have said combat is the most important thing to get right countless times. 

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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The devs have indeed stressed the importance of getting combat right.

 

I suspect they consider getting the "throne war" right is equally important, though.

 

You can't drive a car at all without tires, so arguably tires are the most important part of the car, but you really can't discount the importance of the engine, the interior, the styling, the safety, and so on. Picking any one piece of that as the most important probably misses the bigger picture.

Edited by Jah

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Tires are the most important part of the car. Without them, it cannot move. Few people decide which car to drive based on the tires, though.

Michael Jordan was the most important player on the championship bulls teams, without him they could not win the title.  Many players decided whether to join the bulls or not based on Michael Jordan being there. 

 

It just seems like shadowbane fanatics undervalue the importance of combat just because the game they cherish had such crummy combat.

 

Sorry combat is hugely important.

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Skill can be measured relatively easily.  You are basically just looking at how fast people have to think, vs how deep the decision they have to make is vs what kind of mechanical input and reaction time is required. 

 

If you look at RTS for example it requires insane mechanical input and reaction time (250-500 actions per minute) on top of very layered tactical decisions.  Which is why professional RTS takes the most skill of any video game genre.

 

If a game does not require you to make tough decisions quickly, and does not require a lot of mechanical skill, the skill-ceiling is obviously quite low.

 

So whereas professional RTS play might approach 1 VN, shadowbane would be closer to like .001 VN. 

 

 

I'd have to agree with Helix a couple of posts up.  Also, I'm more in line with this individual's assessment (from a Reddit thread on "Skill Ceiling"):

 

"The problem with this is that we are working with two entirely different metrics here. Dexterous and cognitive skill and how they interact. It would be nearly impossible to properly compare even a handful of games in regards to either of those categories, let alone both and how they interact for all games."

 

I agree with that assessment because what that person is alluding to are the differences between each game. .

 

So, again, what's the point of trying to pigeon-hole the term "skill", or "skill ceiling", given all the subjective matter around that?  Is there a definitive work, or algorithm established?  If there is, bring the link to this thread.

 

Mostly though, I get the feeling "skill ceiling" is an emo-tweaking slogan that's bandied about because it make people feel all tingly. 

  • Has ACE ever talked about where, on some form of "skill ceiling" scale, they'd like to see Crowfall at?

For me, maybe the hangup is the word SKILL.  

 

I'm trying to see where game MECHANICS are being designed to leave things in the hands of the player, instead of by the Game (e.g. tab target vs Player Aim).  Notice I didn't use the word "skill" at all here.  It's not needed, nor (imo) particularly relevant.

 

"Ah, you are just splitting hairs . . ."  I dunno, maybe.  

 

Unless we have some kind of objective method and benchmark to make the term more meaningful and measurable, it doesn't (IMO) provide much clarity to anything, but instead muddies the waters.  

 

Archeage, for instance, is heavily affected by PING.  Guess what that means----> There is absolutely no possible way to articulate or measure "skill" or "skill ceiling" reliably, if we take your examples of trying to calculate how . . . fast . . . a given player has "reacted", or even hand the chance to perceive, any number of stimuli.  I'd take this point back up to the Reddit quote.

 

I do understand your twitch-based focus.  And that skill set (only one of many possible) is relevant of course.

 

I personally like Helix's take.  /shrug

Edited by Bramble

“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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I'd have to agree with Helix a couple of posts up.  Also, I'm more in line with this individual's assessment (from a Reddit thread on "Skill Ceiling"):

 

"The problem with this is that we are working with two entirely different metrics here. Dexterous and cognitive skill and how they interact. It would be nearly impossible to properly compare even a handful of games in regards to either of those categories, let alone both and how they interact for all games."

 

I agree with that assessment because what that person is alluding to are the differences between each game. .

 

So, again, what's the point of trying to pigeon-hole the term "skill", or "skill ceiling", given all the subjective matter around that?  Is there a definitive work, or algorithm established?  If there is, bring the link to this thread.

 

Mostly though, I get the feeling "skill ceiling" is an emo-tweaking slogan that's bandied about because it make people feel all tingly.  Has ACE ever talked about where, on some form of "skill ceiling" scale, they'd like to see Crowfall at?

 

For me, maybe the hangup is the word SKILL.  

 

I'm trying to see where game MECHANICS are being designed to leave things in the hands of the player, instead of by the Game (e.g. tab target vs Player Aim).  Notice I didn't use the word "skill" at all here.  It's not needed, nor (imo) particularly relevant.

 

"Ah, you are just splitting hairs . . ."  I dunno, maybe.  

 

Unless we have some kind of objective method and benchmark to make the term more meaningful and measurable, it doesn't (IMO) provide much clarity to anything, but instead muddies the waters.  If we simply take your argument at face value we blindly follow a slogan that misleads us in the face of IRL impacts:  

 

Archeage, for instance, is heavily affected by PING.  Guess what that means----> There is absolutely no possible way to articulate or measure "skill" or "skill ceiling" reliably, if we take your examples of trying to calculate how . . . fast . . . a given player has "reacted", or even hand the chance to perceive, any number of stimuli.  I'd take this point back up to the Reddit quote.

 

I do understand your twitch-based focus.  And that skill set (only one of many possible) is relevant of course.

 

I personally like Helix's take.  /shrug

The differences between each game are still easily quantifiable towards a standard of overall skill.  In my opinion people that undervalue tactical OR mechanical skill generally do so because they are lacking in the specific skill they are undervaluing, so they want to downplay the significance of it and often gravitate to games where they stand a chance, but on the overall skill standard most of those games fall short.

 

There's an objective way to measure it all, it just requires a lot of experience understanding the different ways games have tried to utilize skill.  Most people don't have the experience so they create these convenient narratives where skill doesn't transfer, or you can't compare genres, but it simply isn't actually the case. 

 

Everyone agrees with that, so no need to apologize.

 

Or are you apologizing for saying it over and over?

Really?  Your own guildmate seems to be in denial of it just a couple posts up.  Even doubting in his own mind that ace has said it, despite them reiterating the point over and over throughout development.  So I don't think everyone agrees with that.  It's literally the most important thing for them to get right, like they've said.  Sorry if that is hard to accept. 

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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There's an objective way to measure it all, it just requires a lot of experience understanding the different ways games have tried to utilize skill.  Most people don't have the experience so they create these convenient narratives where skill doesn't transfer, or you can't compare genres, but it simply isn't actually the case. 

 

 

Then bring that link to this thread for our benefit.

 

This will let all of us work from the same spreadsheet / method / algorithm.

 

No offense intended, but simply saying "Yes there is!" isn't enough.

 

or

 

"Has ACE ever talked about where, on some form of "skill ceiling" scale, they'd like to see Crowfall at?"

Edited by Bramble

“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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Really?  Your own guildmate seems to be in denial of it just a couple posts up.  Even doubting in his own mind that ace has said it, despite them reiterating the point over and over throughout development.  So I don't think everyone agrees with that.  It's literally the most important thing for them to get right, like they've said.  Sorry if that is hard to accept. 

 

He did not deny that combat is "hugely important." I think you are a bit too fond of strawman arguments.

 

His main point was that if they screw up siege the game will be in as much trouble as if they screwed up combat.

 

There is more than one "critical" part to Crowfall.

Edited by Jah

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He did not deny that combat is "hugely important." I think you are a bit too fond of strawman arguments.

He's denying the importance of combat (the most important thing for crowfall to get right as said by the devs)...  It's right there for everyone to see... you can try to change the argument, but it is right there plain as day. 

 

Combat is the most important feature and ACE must get it right, said by them time and time again.  Simply no denying it, you can try to strawman all you want, but that is their word, consistently delivered, throughout development.  It is not out of date, and it is something they will never stop trying to improve.  Gg no rematch.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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He's denying the importance of combat (the most important thing for crowfall to get right as said by the devs)...  It's right there for everyone to see... 

 

No, he is not. He is stressing that there other parts in addition to combat that need to be great as well. There is a bigger picture, and too much emphasis on combat as the heart misses the truth that siege is at the heart, as are many other sandbox mmorpg / throne war elements.

 

Taking what he said and calling that "denying the importance of combat" is straight up strawman stuff.

Edited by Jah

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No, he is not. He is stressing that there other parts in addition to combat that need to be great as well. There is a bigger picture, and too much emphasis on combat as the heart misses the truth that siege is at the heart, as are many other sandbox mmorpg / throne war elements.

 

Taking what he said and calling that "denying the importance of combat" is straight up strawman stuff.

Nope he is literally saying that the devs never said that combat was not the heart of the game, it is literally the most important feature to get right, said by them, time and time again.  Sorry no argument you can claim changes that that is what your guildmate said, and the devs have said combat is the most important feature in the game, over and over again. 

 

Gg no rematch.

 

Anyway this is exactly why the OP needed to see and contextualize the opinions that they might receive about shadowbane.  Because some shadowbane fans are so tunnel visioned on shadowbane that they are literally in denial about what devs have said was the most important part of crowfall repeatedly.  Crowfall is not shadowbane 2.0.  Crowfall is not made specifically and only for those that played shadowbane.  Crowfall is its own games with ideas drawn from wherever it can get them, if it makes sense for their vision. 

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Nope he is literally saying that the devs never said that combat was not the heart of the game

 

No, he didn't. You are distorting what he said even though it is written plainly in this thread.

 

Count_Dirkoff said:

 

"As has been stated before and by the game developers themselves the action combat style is at the heart of the game."

 

Coolwaters said:

 

That certainly was not said, by anyone in development of CF ever.

 

Maybe you're paraphrasing, who knows.

 

To my knowledge, they have never actually said that. They have stressed the importance of combat, and why they  have put it first in the development, but they never actually said "action combat style is the heart of the game."

 

Find a quote, maybe?

 

And either way, that is not the same as denying that "combat is hugely important." That is where you take it to strawman levels.

Edited by Jah

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No, he didn't. You are distorting what he said even though it is written plainly in this thread.

 

Count_Dirkoff said:

 

 

Coolwaters said:

 

 

To my knowledge, they have never actually said that. They have stressed the importance of combat, and why they  have put it first in the development, but they never actually said "action combat style is the heart of the game."

 

Find a quote, maybe?

 

And either way, that is not the same as denying that "combat is hugely important." That is where you take it to strawman levels.

They've literally said that combat is the most important feature of the game, and that they have to get it right countless times... And they've reiterated it over and over again.  Sorry...

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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They've literally said that combat is the most important feature of the game, and that they have to get it right countless times... And they've reiterated it over and over again.  Sorry...

 

I am not denying that. I think you have a hard time with nuance.

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