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Deloria

Shadowbane... please explain it to me like I'm 5.

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I am not denying that. I think you have a hard time with nuance.

So if you don't deny that the devs have stated that combat is the most important feature and that they have to get it right.  You should have a chat with your guildmate who doesn't seem to realize that that is the devs philosophy and has been for a long time. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I always get a chuckle when some ego maniac starts ranting about skill based mmo pvp systems and uses World of Warcraft as an example of a high skill ceiling PvP experience.  The truth is most of these guys would be crippled without their razor, built in game macros, and/or their AHK macro assist programs.  I turned my 8 year old son into a PvP god in games like WoW, Swtor, et al by setting up ability priority macro queues in razor and teaching him to just hold down 1 to build the rage/mana bar, 2 to dump the bar, and a few cc's programed to the naga mouse buttons.  With a little objective training he was parsing higher healing and/or damage numbers than 90% of the "lower skill ceiling (non macro use) players".  While nobody disagrees nailing combat is important, it needs to be nailed with the goal of this game being a throne war / siege-centric MMO.  Being very successful in this style of game is going to depend greatly on group composition, political prowess, resource management, and following/giving sound battlefield commands.

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I always get a chuckle when some ego maniac starts ranting about skill based mmo pvp systems and uses World of Warcraft as an example of a high skill ceiling PvP experience.  The truth is most of these guys would be crippled without their razor, built in game macros, and/or their AHK macro assist programs.  I turned my 8 year old son into a PvP god in games like WoW, Swtor, et al by setting up ability priority macro queues in razor and teaching him to just hold down 1 to build the rage/mana bar, 2 to dump the bar, and a few cc's programed to the naga mouse buttons.  With a little objective training he was parsing higher healing and/or damage numbers than 90% of the "lower skill ceiling (non macro use) players".  While nobody disagrees nailing combat is important, it needs to be nailed with the goal of this game being a throne war / siege-centric MMO.  Being very successful in this style of game is going to depend greatly on group composition, political prowess, resource management, and following/giving sound battlefield commands.

Pretty silly assertion, considering at the esports level you had to play a very clean version of WoW.  Pretty much most pros refused to use any serious macros or addons because they were not allowed at tournaments and it would be detrimental for them to train on anything but as-close-to tournament settings as possible.

 

Your 8 year old son wasn't a pvp god... I doubt he could even break 1800... sorry.  I understand that you believe you know what you are talking about and have your own anecdotal evidence for what you think makes someone a pvp god in WoW, but it's simply not in line with how the competitive play shook out and you should perhaps learn more about WoW as an esport or even just as high-rated arena before you go making such grandiose claims. 

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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No, he didn't. You are distorting what he said even though it is written plainly in this thread.

 

Count_Dirkoff said:

 

As has been stated before and by the game developers themselves the action combat style is at the heart of the game.

 

Ok a quote from J. Todd Coleman, Creative Director.   He said PvP combat is at the heart of the game but as the combat is action style as opposed to tab style you forgive me for linking the two.

 

Needless to say, we are INCREDIBLY excited to be working on this part of the project. PvP combat is the heart of this game! This where things start to get REALLY interesting!

Edited by Count_Dirkoff

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Ok a quote from J. Todd Coleman, Creative Director

Thanks for taking the time to find the quote!

 

http://crowfall.com/en/news/milestone-1-combat-testing/ 

 

That's the article it is from... just so people understand just how long combat has been the heart of the game, this is not a new turn of events, this has been the intention from the get-go.

 

I believe it is good to scrutinize all the decisions ACE makes in regards to this game, but it is never good to be so blinded by personal desires for what the game should be that one flat out denies what ACE has said and reiterated so many times. 

 

I'd like to take this time to clarify to the OP once again that shadowbane was a game that was virtually unplayable and a flop when it launched, it lost most of its players within the span of a few months because it crashed constantly and was poorly coded in general.  OP you should play an emulator or look up youtube videos of shadowbane combat just to get an idea of what kind of combat it had. 

 

There are people that played shadowbane, appreciated its ideas, but saw it implemented poorly and moved on.  Then there are people that did not move on from shadowbane for various reasons and seem to think crowfall is the sequel to shadowbane.  They often are so nostalgic about shadowbane that they ignore what the devs themselves say about crowfall.  This is not good. 

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Pretty silly assertion, considering at the esports level you had to play a very clean version of WoW.  Pretty much most pros refused to use any serious macros or addons because they were not allowed at tournaments and it would be detrimental for them to train on anything but as-close-to tournament settings as possible.

 

Your 8 year old son wasn't a pvp god... I doubt he could even break 1800... sorry.  I understand that you believe you know what you are talking about and have your own anecdotal evidence for what you think makes someone a pvp god in WoW, but it's simply not in line with how the competitive play shook out and you should perhaps learn more about WoW as an esport or even just as high-rated arena before you go making such grandiose claims. 

 

I aspire to much greater things in life than grinding a silly rating score.

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This is actually a pretty good read on the ideas of Skill Ceilings and Skill Floors.

 

Notes:  The term "unit" refers to a Player driven character (Player Controlled Unit).  "Skill Ceiling" is being defined here as the technical limitations established by game mechanics, not "player skill" per-se.

 

A couple of fast excerpts:

 

"These terms are extremely... murky (in a word). They are poorly defined, and, are often used incorrectly - leading to somewhat of a double meaning."

 

"Skill Ceiling - This is the term for the maximum amount of skill that can be applied to a player controlled unit with regards to its technical limitations.

Similarly, you can say that it is the point at which an additional application of skill will yield no additional effectiveness due to the limitations imposed on the unit through the game mechanics."
 
"If you play at the Skill Ceiling (skill cap) you reach the unit's absolute potential.
This does not saying anything about the effectiveness of the unit, aside from that its absolute potential has been reached. Even if the unit has a high skill ceiling, and you reach its absolute potential, it may still be ineffective - this is a problem, as the player is not being rewarded for his skill."

 

ARTICLE LINK:

http://zandagamedesign.blogspot.com/2010/02/skill-ceilings-and-floors.html

Edited by Bramble

“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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I aspire to much greater things in life than grinding a silly rating score.

It's cool, everyone should look to aspire towards what makes them happy, but they shouldn't look to diminish what others are accomplishing just because they themselves have not accomplished such tasks.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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It's cool, everyone should look to aspire towards what makes them happy, but they shouldn't look to diminish what others are accomplishing just because they themselves have not accomplished such tasks.

 

Yet you would like to diminish the input "old shadowbane" players post up on these boards.

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It's cool, everyone should look to aspire towards what makes them happy, but they shouldn't look to diminish what others are accomplishing just because they themselves have not accomplished such tasks.

 

Says the guy who lays siege to any thread where Shadowbane is mentioned in an ongoing campaign to disparage everyone who played after he quit.


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Yet you would like to diminish the input "old shadowbane" players post up on these boards.

Well in the realm of shadowbane, I dominated it in its most competitive era, so I've already been there and done that.  So I can properly clarify to the OP what kind of input they may be receiving and where it is coming from.

 

As we've seen through the way this thread unfolded... there are a lot of people who consider themselves big shadowbane players here, who are simply not understanding the vision of crowfall, and are outright denying what devs have stated many times and pretending the devs didn't actually state such things.  Which could mean they either aren't following crowfall closely enough to understand the direction the game is heading in, if they are unaware of such quotes existing, or it means they are following the game closely but are so biased by their own nostalgia that they simply deny what is plainly displayed by devs in front of their eyes.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Says the guy who lays siege to any thread where Shadowbane is mentioned in an ongoing campaign to disparage everyone who played after he quit.

Hey jah, so there is a quote higher up on this page where JTC says pvp combat is the heart of the game.  What are your thoughts on that quote that you claimed didn't exist and you claimed your guildmate wasn't wrong to deny?  I feel like you are kind of avoiding this quote now after so strongly arguing that it wasn't the case that such a quote would have been said.

 

I personally have no problem with shadowbane being mentioned, I just like clarifying what it actually was and how it pertains to crowfall.  Perhaps it may seem that I am laying siege to it to you because you hold it so dear, but to me and many others it was just another game with good ideas that failed.  Even JTC seemed to echo such a sentiment. 

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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This is actually a pretty good read on the ideas of Skill Ceilings and Skill Floors.

 

Notes:  The term "unit" refers to a Player driven character (Player Controlled Unit).  "Skill Ceiling" is being defined here as the technical limitations established by game mechanics, not "player skill" per-se.

 

A couple of fast excerpts:

 

"These terms are extremely... murky (in a word). They are poorly defined, and, are often used incorrectly - leading to somewhat of a double meaning."

 

"Skill Ceiling - This is the term for the maximum amount of skill that can be applied to a player controlled unit with regards to its technical limitations.

Similarly, you can say that it is the point at which an additional application of skill will yield no additional effectiveness due to the limitations imposed on the unit through the game mechanics."
 
"If you play at the Skill Ceiling (skill cap) you reach the unit's absolute potential.
This does not saying anything about the effectiveness of the unit, aside from that its absolute potential has been reached. Even if the unit has a high skill ceiling, and you reach its absolute potential, it may still be ineffective - this is a problem, as the player is not being rewarded for his skill."

 

ARTICLE LINK:

http://zandagamedesign.blogspot.com/2010/02/skill-ceilings-and-floors.html

 

But doesn't Crowfall sort of address the issue of individual skill ceilings by allowing players to switch vessels?  Certainly the individual, whom might have reached a max unit potential could work on skills more central to successfully winning a campaign?  The whole unit maximum potential goes out the window when you factor in the politics of a throne war sim.

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This is actually a pretty good read on the ideas of Skill Ceilings and Skill Floors.

 

Notes:  The term "unit" refers to a Player driven character (Player Controlled Unit).  "Skill Ceiling" is being defined here as the technical limitations established by game mechanics, not "player skill" per-se.

 

A couple of fast excerpts:

 

"These terms are extremely... murky (in a word). They are poorly defined, and, are often used incorrectly - leading to somewhat of a double meaning."

 

"Skill Ceiling - This is the term for the maximum amount of skill that can be applied to a player controlled unit with regards to its technical limitations.

Similarly, you can say that it is the point at which an additional application of skill will yield no additional effectiveness due to the limitations imposed on the unit through the game mechanics."
 
"If you play at the Skill Ceiling (skill cap) you reach the unit's absolute potential.
This does not saying anything about the effectiveness of the unit, aside from that its absolute potential has been reached. Even if the unit has a high skill ceiling, and you reach its absolute potential, it may still be ineffective - this is a problem, as the player is not being rewarded for his skill."

 

ARTICLE LINK:

http://zandagamedesign.blogspot.com/2010/02/skill-ceilings-and-floors.html

Yes and games can have low skill-ceilings, where the games technical limitations are so apparent that anyone can reach the skill-ceiling, or it can have a high skill-ceiling, where pretty much no one reaches the skill-ceiling but the best players get much closer to it than not good players.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Well in the realm of shadowbane, I dominated it in its most competitive era, so I've already been there and done that.  So I can properly clarify to the OP what kind of input they may be receiving and where it is coming from.

 

As we've seen through the way this thread unfolded... there are a lot of people who consider themselves big shadowbane players here, who are simply not understanding the vision of crowfall, and are outright denying what devs have stated many times and pretending the devs didn't actually state such things.  Which could mean they either aren't following crowfall closely enough to understand the direction the game is heading in, if they are unaware of such quotes existing, or it means they are following the game closely but are so biased by their own nostalgia that they simply deny what is plainly displayed by devs in front of their eyes.

 

 

Share with us your Shadowbane legacy, we are most curious.  You say "I dominated it in its most competitive era", but the funny thing is the only lasting legacies are what nations accomplished.

Edited by cyjax

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Share with us your Shadowbane legacy, we are most curious.  You say "I dominated it in its most competitive era", but the funny thing is the only lasting legacies are what nations were able to accomplish.

Undefeated in beta and through launch until the mass exodus of players due to sb.exe crashes, poor optimization, and the service being hacked. 

 

The lasting legacies are what people did after shadowbane died... dominant pvpers dominate every game they touch. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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But doesn't Crowfall sort of address the issue of individual skill ceilings by allowing players to switch vessels?  Certainly the individual, whom might have reached a max unit potential could work on skills more central to successfully winning a campaign?  The whole unit maximum potential goes out the window when you factor in the politics of a throne war sim.

 

Good point. In a strategic game other more complex factors come into play like organisation, leadership, teamwork etc. These factors make a game like CF (and other MMOs) a game of imperfect information and therefore it is not always a player which has reached the skill ceiling that will win.


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Good point. In a strategic game other more complex factors come into play like organisation, leadership, teamwork etc. These factors make a game like CF (and other MMOs) a game of imperfect information and therefore it is not always a player which has reached the skill ceiling that will win.

 

This guy gets it!

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Good point. In a strategic game other more complex factors come into play like organisation, leadership, teamwork etc. These factors make a game like CF (and other MMOs) a game of imperfect information and therefore it is not always a player which has reached the skill ceiling that will win.

A game with a decent skill-ceiling is above the level that any actual human could actually ever achieve.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Undefeated in beta and through launch until the mass exodus of players due to sb.exe crashes, poor optimization, and the service being hacked. 

 

The lasting legacies are what people did after shadowbane died... dominant pvpers dominate every game they touch. 

 

Let me guess, you have a 2600 or above grandmaster chess rating too!

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