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Deloria

Shadowbane... please explain it to me like I'm 5.

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Hey jah, so there is a quote higher up on this page where JTC says pvp combat is the heart of the game.  What are your thoughts on that quote that you claimed didn't exist and you claimed your guildmate wasn't wrong to deny?  I feel like you are kind of avoiding this quote now after so strongly arguing that it wasn't the case that such a quote would have been said.

 

I personally have no problem with shadowbane being mentioned, I just like clarifying what it actually was and how it pertains to crowfall.  Perhaps it may seem that I am laying siege to it to you because you hold it so dear, but to me and many others it was just another game with good ideas that failed.  Even JTC seemed to echo such a sentiment. 

 

I am well aware of that article and quote from JTC. I read it when it came out and have not forgotten. I never claimed it didn't exist. Saying I claimed it didn't exist is more of your strawman nonsense.

 

Coolwaters questioned Count_Dirkoff when he said, "As has been stated before and by the game developers themselves the action combat style is at the heart of the game."

 

The quote doesn't say that, and so it was reasonable that Coolwaters questioned it. It said "PvP combat is the heart of this game!" That does have a different meaning.

 

Your attempts to use that exchange to claim that "He's denying the importance of combat" and "not understanding the vision of crowfall, and outright denying what devs have stated many times and pretending the devs didn't actually state such things" is nonsense.

 

Your attempts to paint people as incompetent are crude and obnoxious. At least step up your game.

Edited by Jah

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Let me guess, you have a 2600 or above grandmaster chess rating too!

Nope only ever got to 2k in chess, but that was at age 13.  I was being tutored by a grandmaster though. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I am well aware of that article and quote from JTC. i read it when it came out and have not forgotten. I never claimed it didn't exist. Saying I claimed it didn't exist is more of your strawman nonsense.

 

Coolwaters questioned Count_Dirkoff when he said, "the action combat style is at the heart of the game."

 

The quote doesn't say that, and so it was reasonable that Coolwaters questioned it. It said "PvP combat is the heart of this game!" That does have a different meaning.

 

Your attempts to use that exchange to claim that "He's denying the importance of combat" and "not understanding the vision of crowfall, and outright denying what devs have stated many times and pretending the devs didn't actually state such things" is nonsense.

I'm sorry Jah but pvp combat is the most important part of this game, it is the heart of the game.  There is no denying it no matter how much you try to wiggle around that reality.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I'm sorry Jah but pvp combat is the most important part of this game, it is the heart of the game.  There is no denying it no matter how much you try to wiggle around that reality.

 

You are quite something.

 

That "ignore what they say and pretend they are saying something else" debate strategy is not exactly constructive.

Edited by Jah

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I'm sorry Jah but pvp combat is the most important part of this game, it is the heart of the game.  There is no denying it no matter how much you try to wiggle around that reality.

 

No matter how hard you will it, this game is not going to transform into some arena based l33t sk33t bunny hoping, jitter stepping, ability spamming eSport.  The pieces on the board are more simplistic, the skill ceilings will be lower than what you expect, and a lot of us are okay with that.  Many of us are excited about the strategy component of this game, the political meta, and city/kingdom building.  I don't think you have the grit for this style of game.  I wonder how would you react to being told to login and play the pawn (very low unit skill mastery ceiling) because your nation is short pawns and need them to fill a spec group.  Make no mistake, the vision for Crowfall all along is to be the spiritual successor to Shadowbane.  Hell just look at the terminology for bane trees, bane stones.

 

All that being said I feel like the game client needs the most love which has a direct impact on combat when the client is not performing well.  Many of us have faith in ACE doing their best to deliver a great throne war sim and look forward to playing our roles when the game launches.

 

I think you need to ask yourself if you actually like the idea of playing a "role playing game".

Edited by cyjax

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No matter how hard you will it, this game is not going to transform into some arena based l33t sk33t bunny hoping, jitter stepping, ability spamming eSport.  The pieces on the board are more simplistic, the skill ceilings will be lower than what you expect, and a lot of us are okay with that.  Many of us are excited about the strategy component of this game, the political meta, and city/kingdom building.  I don't think you have the grit for this style of game.  I wonder how would you react to being told to login and play the pawn (very low unit skill mastery ceiling) because your nation is short pawns and need them to fill a spec group.  Make no mistake, the vision for Crowfall all along is to be the spiritual successor to Shadowbane.  Hell just look at the terminology for bane trees, bane stones.

 

All that being said I feel like the game client needs the most love which has a direct impact on combat when the client is not performing well.  Many of us have faith in ACE doing their best to deliver a great throne war sim and look forward to playing our roles when the game launches.

 

I think you need to ask yourself if you actually like the idea of playing a "role playing game".

As the devs have stated, the combat is the heart of the game/most important part of the game.  There is simply no denying that.  If the game is going to succeed the combat needs to require a decent amount of skill for a pvp game coming out in 2016/2017.  This means people expecting something like a shadowbane skill-ceiling are in for an absolutely colossal awakening. 

 

You don't really know what grit is, no one that is okay with low skill-ceilings would ever know what grit is. 

 

I think you need to ask yourself if crowfall is really a roleplaying game... It has a crows and vessels system, which is far closer to arena based concepts than you seem to realize. 

 

You can deny it all you want but the game is heading a certain direction, it's fairly obvious what direction that is, but it seems some of the shadowbane loyalists believe no matter what ACE says or shows, the game is always going to be the direction they are nostalgic about.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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As the devs have stated, the combat is the heart of the game/most important part of the game.  There is simply no denying that.  If the game is going to succeed the combat needs to require a decent amount of skill for a pvp game coming out in 2016/2017.  This means people expecting something like a shadowbane skill-ceiling are in for an absolutely colossal awakening. 

 

You don't really know what grit is, no one that is okay with low skill-ceilings would ever know what grit is. 

 

I think you need to ask yourself if crowfall is really a roleplaying game... It has a crows and vessels system, which is far closer to arena based concepts than you seem to realize. 

 

You can deny it all you want but the game is heading a certain direction, it's fairly obvious what direction that is, but it seems some of the shadowbane loyalists believe no matter what ACE says or shows, the game is always going to be the direction they are nostalgic about.

 

Take your vision and go produce your own game then pal. Before you leave, and you almost certainly will, can you link me your manifesto of sweeping changes that would put Crowfall back into your vision of what the game should aspire to be?  I must have missed that streak of genius you posted because all I see is some eSport fanboi crying about how combat sucks and needs sweeping changes to make it attract some massive eSport playerbase.

Edited by cyjax

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Take your vision and go produce your own game then pal. Before you leave, and you almost certainly will, can you link me your manifesto of sweeping changes that would put Crowfall back into your vision of what the game should aspire to be?  I must have missed that streak of genius you posted because all I see is some eSport fanboi crying about how combat sucks and needs sweeping changes to make it attract some massive eSport playerbase.

It's not my vision, it's JTCs...

 

And his vision is a game that has action combat at the heart of it, as the most important feature.  You can imagine whatever you want, but the vision is still the vision and your imagination is still your imagination.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Shadowbane players aren't the only ones who are nostalgic about it. J Todd Coleman is too.

 

I am ALL IN on Crowfall. I've invested a big chunk of my savings. I left my cushy job. I gave up my safe little nest, and took a bold (arguably foolhardy) leap into the unknown.
 

Why?

Because I HAVE to make this game.

March, 2004: Shadowbane basically ruined me. I put everything I had into Wolfpack; I crunched for years. I spent all the money that I made from selling my previous company. I lost friends. I alienated family members. I'm not going to go so far as to say "shadowbane caused my divorce", but I will say: it certainly didn't help.

We shipped it, yes. and it sold well. But it was riddled with issues (technical, design, and operational) that caused it to bleed players like a sieve.

All that effort, all that cost, all that pain. and it just didn't work. We lost.

We sold the company to find a soft landing for the team. The founders? No such luck. Unemployed.

I had invested everything in Shadowbane, and walked away with almost nothing. For about a year, I basically fell off the grid, didn't do much of anything but think about what went wrong.
I'm over that, now. I'm not longer haunted by 'this went wrong' or 'that went wrong'. I'm years past the autopsy.

What haunts me is this: it ALMOST worked.

The vision we (the Wolfpack founders) had was amazing. The vision was right there, so perfectly clear in our minds. It was tangible. And, every now and then in development, the rarest of moments. A break in the storm clouds, the sunlight would pour through like a light from heaven and everything would just WORK. For a few moments, you could FEEL it. Ask the folks who played the SB beta, they can tell you what it felt like:

THIS IS IT.

THIS IS THE GAME.

THIS IS THE VISION.

IT IS REAL.

IT WORKS.


...and then the clouds would roll back in, fires would erupt all around me, and everything would go to hell again.

The idea behind Crowfall -- the original idea that pre-dates Shadowbane, that was born in a pizza joint as a scribble on a paper napkin -- that vision is my white whale. We had it once, right there, in our grasps. It was so close!

It ALMOST worked.


I've spent every day of the last decade learning how to build MMOs. Shadowbane was the first game that I ever worked on, remember. I made a ton of newbie mistakes. Say what you like about Wizard101, but we had a flawless launch and amassed over 50 million players. I've picked up a few tricks.

I learned what I need to learn about building MMOs. Launching MMOs. Running a live service. and with Gordon here, and the team that we have recruited, we can do this. We can make this game great.

This isn't just a game to me. I'm on a mission.

It is time to right a great wrong.

Todd ACE

 

 

He spells out very clearly that Crowfall is an attempt to realize the same vision that drove him to make Shadowbane.

 

Both games come from the same scribble on a napkin. One was his first, and it was disastrous, and the second is his attempt to right a great wrong.

 

I don't see how anyone who has read this can deny a deep connection with Shadowbane.

 

Any bets on whether the words "action combat" were written on that paper napkin?

 

I bet whatever was scribbled had more to do with what he now calls a "Throne War."

Edited by Jah

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It's not my vision, it's JTCs...

 

And his vision is a game that has action combat at the heart of it, as the most important feature.  You can imagine whatever you want, but the vision is still the vision and your imagination is still your imagination.

 

All bark, no bite, no substance.

 

RIP VIKINGNAIL

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Shadowbane players aren't the only ones who are nostalgic about it. J Todd Coleman is too.

 

 

He spells out very clearly that Crowfall is an attempt to realize the same vision that drove him to make Shadowbane.

 

Both games come from the same scribble on a napkin. One was his first, and it was disastrous, and the second is his attempt to right a great wrong.

 

I don't see how anyone who has read this can deny a deep connection with Shadowbane.

 

Any bets one whether the words "action combat" were written on that paper napkin?

 

I bet whatever was scribbled had more to do with what he now calls a "Throne War."

Well JTC very clearly states that pvp combat is the heart of the game, they very clearly state that it is the most important thing and they must get it right.  Sorry you deny them repeatedly saying that through all stages of development over and over again.  It's like they haven't made it clear enough to you.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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As has been stated before and by the game developers themselves the action combat style is at the heart of the game. I

 

PvP combat is the heart of this game!

See the difference between what Todd said and what was attributed to him?

 

VN doesn't, but I bet anyone else who can read sees the difference.

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I find VN quite sad. It is always the same rhetorics. If he is going to continue with it, he should at least get some new material. He is nothing more than Sabotard from the SBE forums. I can't be the only one that sees this... Lol

All the people that remember shadowbane with rose-tinted goggles are in for the same rude awakening... Those of us that actually dominated in shadowbane and moved on to dominate other games find this all very comical. 

 

It's like they can tell you over and over what direction they are going with the game, and you just keep gushing about some experience you had on an emulator. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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All the people that remember shadowbane with rose-tinted goggles are in for the same rude awakening... Those of us that actually dominated in shadowbane and moved on to dominate other games find this all very comical. 

 

It's like they can tell you over and over what direction they are going with the game, and you just keep gushing about some experience you had on an emulator. 

Hey, thanks for proving my point. I didn't realize it was a crime to relive the fun times in the past. You must be miserable, not being able to relive or reflect back on the fun.

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Hey, thanks for proving my point. I didn't realize it was a crime to relive the fun times in the past. You must be miserable, not being able to relive or reflect back on the fun.

The point was that crowfall is not shadowbane 2.0.  It is an action combat game where the combat is the most important feature of the game, and something they must get right. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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The point was that crowfall is not shadowbane 2.0.  It is an action combat game where the combat is the most important feature of the game, and something they must get right. 

 

VN, I'm thinking you're under some kind of incorrect notion.

 

Combat does not define a game

 

It seems to me that you define SB as a tabtarget game and Crowfall as an action combat game. If SB had action combat, and it still failed, would you be saying the same things?

 

You don't define a game based solely on its type of combat. SB is not defined by having tabtarget combat, it's defined by having diverse character customization options, by having meaningful asset destruction, and by having meaningful asset creation. Likewise, you don't define WoW as tabtarget, you define it by its numerous features: open world, rich lore, etc. 

 

I believe most people would agree, that when they equate Crowfall to Shadowbane, they're equating what made SB great: the character customization, city building, city sieging, etc, not what caused its sunset. 

 

I'm pretty sure former SB players aren't looking for Crowfall to have SB.exe, but to have the same, or similar, character diversity and meaningful asset creation and destruction.


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You Can't Be A Genius, If You Aren't The Slightest Bit Insane.

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The point was that crowfall is not shadowbane 2.0.  It is an action combat game where the combat is the most important feature of the game, and something they must get right. 

 

And none of that changes Crowfall from being SB 2.0.  A sequel doesn't have to play exactly like the original.  When people say they want SB 2.0. they're not saying they want an identical clone that's just been rewrapped.  They just want Crowfall to give them the same feeling they had when they played Shadowbane.

 

Part of the issue I see here is that some people seem to view the type of combat in the game, as the game.  You could take the best combat in the world and throw it into an open space and it wouldn't be a game.  People would bash each other a bit, get bored and then quit.  Combat isn't the game.  I know that sounds stupid but it's actually the stuff around the combat that is the game.  You just need good combat or nobody's going to play the game.

 

I don't see anyone that's wanting SB 2.0. saying that combat isn't vitally important to the success of the game.  In fact I'm sure most people that are wanting SB 2.0 are actually excited that they're going with action combat.

 

Shadowbane was a game about teamwork.  A game where your actions mattered and had consequences.  Speaking for myself, when I say I want this game to be SB 2.0,  all I'm wanting is for this game to have siege mechanics similar, but improved, to what SB had.  Character customization that's similar to SB.  And group play over individual.  A game where your actions matter and have consequences.  As long as Crowfall has those aspects of SB then this is SB 2.0. to me.  The combat has nothing to do with whether or not this game is SB 2.0. to me or not.

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Well JTC very clearly states that pvp combat is the heart of the game, they very clearly state that it is the most important thing and they must get it right.  Sorry you deny them repeatedly saying that through all stages of development over and over again.  It's like they haven't made it clear enough to you.

 

You keep repeating this over and over, but I don't think it means what you think it means.

 

Combat itself has no purpose on its own. It doesn't directly affect the game world in any way. It is only given meaning through the affect it has on all of the other game systems - resources, territory, guilds, the economy, etc. Combat is not an objective itself, it is the means we use to accomplish our objectives.

 

Combat is important because it is the most pervasive system in the game. It touches every other system in the game in some way or another. So yes, in that sense it is indeed the heart of the game, because it ties everything together, it is the primary method through which players will assert their power over the game world. And because of that, it is critically important that combat is fun. If people refuse to engage in combat because it's boring, the game will simply stagnate and die.

 

Anyway, my point is simply this - the combat system does not exist inside a bubble, it's contribution to the success of Crowfall is tied directly to how well the rest of the features and game systems are designed and implemented. It may have the distinct honor of being the game system that can most easily destroy Crowfall all on its own, but no matter how good it is, it cannot keep Crowfall alive on its own.

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