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Deloria

Shadowbane... please explain it to me like I'm 5.

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I'm only going to play Crowfall if I get Crowfall.exe every 10 minutes.  Otherwise, what is even the point?

 

Real competitive players and guilds know how to compensate for crowfall.exe ...it'll just be part of the meta.


Shadowbane - House Avari/Hy'shen
"Gimp elves get good elves killed." - Belina

Avari Discord - https://discord.gg/Bch24PV

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This thread.

 

wut has i dun?

 

 

 

Seriously though - I've learned a hell of a lot so thanks to you guys for the discussion. I did check out a few of the Shadowbane sites. *shudders* 

 

I'm gonna see if I can summarize - just so you guys can see I was staying awake in class...

 

 

Shadowbane was a PVP oriented game quite a bit ahead of its time. It was full loot, high conflict and focused very much on player customization. It also had very many features not found in a lot of other places - like castle sieging. It must have blown a lot of people away in 2003 - probably while they were listening to hardcore hits on their winamps.

 

 

When Shadowbane worked it worked really really well. But it didn't work a lot of the time - especially out of the box. This led to a lot of rage at release and ultimately sank it. As many people remember the bugs and bits that were broken than the actual game-play, which seems to be the main topic of contention.

 

Many people also say "Shadowbane ruined other mmos for me" - which is quite a big statement. I guess other MMOs become a bit shallow in the face of all the choices and diversity that SB brought to the table.. I do get that -  but I think its also possible that Shadowbane ruined them for other mmos.... And that is a bit scary. Like if an mmo doesnt hold up to an incredibly high level of expectation (some of which from here seems reasonable and some of which seems to be a little bit of rose tinted nostalgia) then theres a lot of heat and salt.  

 

And we get that: Shadowbane gave these players a pretty awesome experience in hardcore PvP - and they became the kind of haredcore players that don't sit well in a themepark. Is it fair to say that they get restless and noisy and totally fail to get into the bumper-cars cos they want a more intense thrill all the time?

 

 

 

Now I'm gonna go a bit further... Here's what I learned:

 

Those Shadowbane emu sites.. there's a lot of drama. I was curious to see what the fuss was about so went looking for a game and a community... but oh Christ there's a lot of toxicity. I basically stepped slowly back out of the room.

 

If that stuff ever happened here I think its fair to say CF would fail. New players would RUN. When I see it spill here - I get really nervous.

 

I think this is a much bigger picture that maybe the guys arguing SB game merits maybe just don't see: You guys might be a bit used to doing your own thing a bit unchecked. You're maybe a bit too untamed for a moderated game forum - is that fair to say? 

 

I just think its important that the community stays positive and focused. This thread kinda shows how salty people can get when discussing this stuff, and we do see a lot of rage now and then - especially on other Crowfall fan sites that led to a lot of drama - and sadly even some players rage quitting and those sites dying. Like that's actually really sad.. Community sites falling away.

 

So... regardless of differences of opinions.. on SB good or SB bad.. I hope there's one thing we can all agree on:

 

This community needs to stick together. We need to build it up. We need to focus on what makes Crowfall great - and if we can learn from games like SB or Hello Kitty Island Adventures or whatever then fantastic, but CF is the prize. The community is the prize.

 

 

So TL;DR SB was a groundbreaking game in 2003. When SB worked it was a lot of fun. It didn't always though - but the fans it made were pretty die-hard. I kinda regret I missed it. I love an enthusiastic community... but not a rabid one. People get salty about it. There's rage and drama. Too much. And that stuff means I will never try SB or go further into it.. cos frankly life is too short for ugly fanboy drama.. And sadly SB did have and still has a lot of that going on.That stuff can kill sites. Kill games. Kill communities. It shouldn't happen here. 

Edited by Deloria

www.CrowfallRP.com


Disclaimer: My RP with you might become a public story: https://soundcloud.com/shiv-mahon

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Deloria, my compliments for your really good recap and analysis of this nine pages long thread. Concerning forumbane, don´t worry about it. 

 

 

It´s a good idea to help build a RP community,  keep up the good work !


The best skill at cards is knowing when to discard.
 

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[snip]

 

So... regardless of differences of opinions.. on SB good or SB bad.. I hope there's one thing we can all agree on:

 

This community needs to stick together. We need to build it up. We need to focus on what makes Crowfall great - and if we can learn from games like SB or Hello Kitty Island Adventures or whatever then fantastic, but CF is the prize. The community is the prize.

 

 

So TL;DR SB was a groundbreaking game in 2003. When SB worked it was a lot of fun. It didn't always though - but the fans it made were pretty die-hard. I kinda regret I missed it. I love an enthusiastic community... but not a rabid one. People get salty about it. There's rage and drama. Too much. And that stuff means I will never try SB or go further into it.. cos frankly life is too short for ugly fanboy drama.. And sadly SB did have and still has a lot of that going on.That stuff can kill sites. Kill games. Kill communities. It shouldn't happen here. 

 

Really good stuff, and a practical philosophy.  /bows

 

Nice.

 

:D

Edited by Bramble

“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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VN, I'm thinking you're under some kind of incorrect notion.

 

Combat does not define a game

 

Wrong... combat is the thing that defines a game most lol....

 

It seems to me that you define SB as a tabtarget game and Crowfall as an action combat game. If SB had action combat, and it still failed, would you be saying the same things?

 

SB wasn't an action combat game though, SB was a tab-target click to move game that crashed constantly and flopped very quickly after launch. 

 

You don't define a game based solely on its type of combat. SB is not defined by having tabtarget combat, it's defined by having diverse character customization options, by having meaningful asset destruction, and by having meaningful asset creation. Likewise, you don't define WoW as tabtarget, you define it by its numerous features: open world, rich lore, etc. 

 

You define a game based on what matters most in the specific game.  In SB the combat apparently didn't matter most (LOL) but in crowfall it is stated that the combat is the heart of the game, the most important feature.  This is beyond contestation. 

 

I believe most people would agree, that when they equate Crowfall to Shadowbane, they're equating what made SB great: the character customization, city building, city sieging, etc, not what caused its sunset. 

 

Do you mean most shadowbane-only type players?  They seem to remember things with rose-tinted goggles where the things they think made shadowbane great (ideas that never truly came to fruition) were never fully realized.  The mind can play tricks on people, perception is all very wishy washy, but someone that just looks back at SB as the good ole days because they were unable to adapt to games that frankly have a much higher skill-ceiling, aren't really going to be objective about what crowfall should be.

 

I'm pretty sure former SB players aren't looking for Crowfall to have SB.exe, but to have the same, or similar, character diversity and meaningful asset creation and destruction.

 

 

And none of that changes Crowfall from being SB 2.0.  A sequel doesn't have to play exactly like the original.  When people say they want SB 2.0. they're not saying they want an identical clone that's just been rewrapped.  They just want Crowfall to give them the same feeling they had when they played Shadowbane.

 

But crowfall isn't a sequel, as even one of the hugest SB fans has mentioned in this thread, crowfall pulls just as much if not more from other games as it does from SB.  SB players just want to exaggerate the similarities between the game and assume that makes it THEIR game. 

 

Part of the issue I see here is that some people seem to view the type of combat in the game, as the game.  You could take the best combat in the world and throw it into an open space and it wouldn't be a game.  People would bash each other a bit, get bored and then quit.  Combat isn't the game.  I know that sounds stupid but it's actually the stuff around the combat that is the game.  You just need good combat or nobody's going to play the game.

 

The combat defines whether this game is going to succeed or not, everything begins and ends with combat. 

 

I don't see anyone that's wanting SB 2.0. saying that combat isn't vitally important to the success of the game.  In fact I'm sure most people that are wanting SB 2.0 are actually excited that they're going with action combat.

 

Actually there are people saying exactly that.  They don't want individual skill to matter "too" much and they think having meh combat is fine. 

 

Shadowbane was a game about teamwork.  A game where your actions mattered and had consequences.  Speaking for myself, when I say I want this game to be SB 2.0,  all I'm wanting is for this game to have siege mechanics similar, but improved, to what SB had.  Character customization that's similar to SB.  And group play over individual.  A game where your actions matter and have consequences.  As long as Crowfall has those aspects of SB then this is SB 2.0. to me.  The combat has nothing to do with whether or not this game is SB 2.0. to me or not.

 

Combat requiring enough skill makes actions matter and have more consequence.  If the combat was easy then winning or losing would have no real meaning.  People could do mental gymnastics and pretend the stakes were super serious, but to any skilled pvper the illusion would be clear as day. 

 

 

You keep repeating this over and over, but I don't think it means what you think it means.

 

Combat itself has no purpose on its own. It doesn't directly affect the game world in any way. It is only given meaning through the affect it has on all of the other game systems - resources, territory, guilds, the economy, etc. Combat is not an objective itself, it is the means we use to accomplish our objectives.

 

Nope, combat is the primary activity that will determine whether skilled players enjoy the game.  Bad combat = they leave. 

 

Combat is important because it is the most pervasive system in the game. It touches every other system in the game in some way or another. So yes, in that sense it is indeed the heart of the game, because it ties everything together, it is the primary method through which players will assert their power over the game world. And because of that, it is critically important that combat is fun. If people refuse to engage in combat because it's boring, the game will simply stagnate and die.

 

Anyway, my point is simply this - the combat system does not exist inside a bubble, it's contribution to the success of Crowfall is tied directly to how well the rest of the features and game systems are designed and implemented. It may have the distinct honor of being the game system that can most easily destroy Crowfall all on its own, but no matter how good it is, it cannot keep Crowfall alive on its own.

 

Combat is the most important feature... the rest pale in comparison. 

 

 

This thread.

 

wut has i dun?

 

 

 

Seriously though - I've learned a hell of a lot so thanks to you guys for the discussion. I did check out a few of the Shadowbane sites. *shudders* 

 

I'm gonna see if I can summarize - just so you guys can see I was staying awake in class...

 

 

Shadowbane was a PVP oriented game quite a bit ahead of its time. It was full loot, high conflict and focused very much on player customization. It also had very many features not found in a lot of other places - like castle sieging. It must have blown a lot of people away in 2003 - probably while they were listening to hardcore hits on their winamps.

 

 

When Shadowbane worked it worked really really well. But it didn't work a lot of the time - especially out of the box. This led to a lot of rage at release and ultimately sank it. As many people remember the bugs and bits that were broken than the actual game-play, which seems to be the main topic of contention.

 

Many people also say "Shadowbane ruined other mmos for me" - which is quite a big statement. I guess other MMOs become a bit shallow in the face of all the choices and diversity that SB brought to the table.. I do get that -  but I think its also possible that Shadowbane ruined them for other mmos.... And that is a bit scary. Like if an mmo doesnt hold up to an incredibly high level of expectation (some of which from here seems reasonable and some of which seems to be a little bit of rose tinted nostalgia) then theres a lot of heat and salt.  

 

And we get that: Shadowbane gave these players a pretty awesome experience in hardcore PvP - and they became the kind of haredcore players that don't sit well in a themepark. Is it fair to say that they get restless and noisy and totally fail to get into the bumper-cars cos they want a more intense thrill all the time?

 

This isn't quite accurate... Here is exactly what happened...  Shadowbane was in beta and hugely anticipated because the game wasn't crashing 24-7 in beta, it launched to a lot of initial interest (selling a lot of copies relative to the time) really quickly and all the best pvp guilds from other mmorpgs were playing it.  The game was unplayable crashing every 10 minutes and much more frequently during large battles (which were supposed to be one of the most interesting aspects of the game.) So eventually most of the playerbase quit, including all of the best pvpers because no one rational wants to play a game that is that broken, and on top of it the skill-ceiling was so low (very slow paced, tab-target click to move with very slow servers and lots of lag) and the best pvpers moved on to other games.  The game slowly died out but like all games you had some really die-hard fans.  Also like all fans, those fans wanted to believe the thing they enjoyed was the best thing in the world.  Unfortunately, fanaticism can cause some pretty funky behavior so these people generally tried new games with a negative attitude going in... (omg it isn't shadowbane it sucks!) and/or they generally struggled to adapt to the higher skill-ceilings (part of the reason shadowbane appealed to them so much is probably because it resonated perfectly with their level of skill so it is the exact place they felt most comfortable) so they were often dismissive of other games. 

 

 

 

Now I'm gonna go a bit further... Here's what I learned:

 

Those Shadowbane emu sites.. there's a lot of drama. I was curious to see what the fuss was about so went looking for a game and a community... but oh Christ there's a lot of toxicity. I basically stepped slowly back out of the room.

 

If that stuff ever happened here I think its fair to say CF would fail. New players would RUN. When I see it spill here - I get really nervous.

 

It's tried to spill here before, a lot of the shadowbane players tried to imprint that atmosphere onto these forums initially, but ACE wanted a cleaner forum that focused on game development and feedback.  Again it goes back to the fanaticism thing, people so stuck in their comfort zone that they want crowfall to become like that in as many ways as possible. 

 

I think this is a much bigger picture that maybe the guys arguing SB game merits maybe just don't see: You guys might be a bit used to doing your own thing a bit unchecked. You're maybe a bit too untamed for a moderated game forum - is that fair to say? 

 

This is fair to say. 

 

I just think its important that the community stays positive and focused. This thread kinda shows how salty people can get when discussing this stuff, and we do see a lot of rage now and then - especially on other Crowfall fan sites that led to a lot of drama - and sadly even some players rage quitting and those sites dying. Like that's actually really sad.. Community sites falling away.

 

So... regardless of differences of opinions.. on SB good or SB bad.. I hope there's one thing we can all agree on:

 

This community needs to stick together. We need to build it up. We need to focus on what makes Crowfall great - and if we can learn from games like SB or Hello Kitty Island Adventures or whatever then fantastic, but CF is the prize. The community is the prize.

 

Unfortunately this may be a bit too idealistic... Ideally people would support ACE's vision, but some are willing to try and burn the community to the ground if they don't get their way and the game doesn't become a remake of shadowbane. 

 

 

So TL;DR SB was a groundbreaking game in 2003. When SB worked it was a lot of fun. It didn't always though - but the fans it made were pretty die-hard. I kinda regret I missed it. I love an enthusiastic community... but not a rabid one. People get salty about it. There's rage and drama. Too much. And that stuff means I will never try SB or go further into it.. cos frankly life is too short for ugly fanboy drama.. And sadly SB did have and still has a lot of that going on.That stuff can kill sites. Kill games. Kill communities. It shouldn't happen here. 

 

Correct


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I'm sorry Jah but pvp combat is the most important part of this game, it is the heart of the game.  There is no denying it no matter how much you try to wiggle around that reality.

 

I see Crowfall as being more of a complex organism, less binary or ameba-like such as Smite or other MOBAs, with pre-layed out and manicured arena maps, with a binary mode of game-play (combat only - pre-determined static map - predictably repeating opponents) are more "binary", to set that example.

 

"Combat is the Heart of the game" - Ok, I'll agree.

 

But, if I understand the vision for the game, it's scaled up a few steps from an Ameoba.  It's not going to be quite as game-play monochrome as a FPS or MOBA.

 

It's a more complex organism with:  Lungs, Liver, Pancreas, Brain

 

Your Heart can be just fine, but if I yank your Liver out you'll die all the same.  Syiss basically said this in his final paragraph in the post above.

 

If people aren't talking about Combat to the absolute exclusion of all else . . . in your opinion they don't get it, don't understand the importance of PvP, don't understand the vision for the game, are probably no good at PvP because they don't understand it, etc., etc.

 

I think that's a mislead of yourself in relation to others going on.

 

ACE will complete THEIR vision for the game.  Part of that process is sifting ideas from the Community and playing cyclic Tetris with them.  One thing I'm hoping Crowfall has enough of, even within the context of "PvP is the Heart of Crowfall" is:

 

Genetic Diversity in Game Play Outlets.

 

"Genetic diversity refers to both the vast numbers of different species as well as the diversity within a species. The greater the genetic diversity within a species, the greater that species' chances of long-term survival. This is because negative traits (such as inherited diseases = or within our context Toxic Nitwits within the PvP Community. or boredom - needing a change of pace) become widespread within a population when that population is left to reproduce only with its own members."

 

All I'm pointing out is that Crowfall isn't going to be another Smite with bigger maps.  It is going to be slanted to, and driven by the need to participate in the CWs which are going to die and be reborn with random layouts.  Cool stuff.  I like the idea.

 

Combat is a core dynamic for the game, to whatever level of attention ACE will take it.  Of course.  The same goes for the "PvE" side.

 

Some of us do have an interest in our Livers and Lungs also, without taking anything away from the Heart.

 

That's all.

 

I would also agree with Syiss:

 

Combat itself has no purpose on its own. It doesn't directly affect the game world in any way. It is only given meaning through the affect it has on all of the other game systems - resources, territory, guilds, the economy, etc. Combat is not an objective itself, it is the means we use to accomplish our objectives.

Edited by Bramble

“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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I see Crowfall as being more of a complex organism, less binary or ameba-like.  Smite or other MOBAs, with pre-layed out and manicured arena maps, with a binary mode of game-play (combat only - pre-determined static map - predictably repeating opponents) are more "binary", to set that example.

 

"Combat is the Heart of the game" - Ok, I'll agree.

 

But, if I understand the vision for the game, it's scaled up a few steps from an Ameoba.  It's not going to be quite as game-play monochrome as a FPS or MOBA.

 

It's a more complex organism with:  Lungs, Liver, Pancreas, Brain

 

Your Heart can be just fine, but if I yank your Liver out you'll die all the same.  Syiss basically said this in his final paragraph in the post above.

 

If people aren't talking about Combat to the absolute exclusion of all else . . . in your opinion they don't get it, don't understand the importance of PvP, don't understand the vision for the game, are probably no good at PvP because they don't understand it, etc., etc.

 

I think that's a mislead of yourself in relation to others going on.

 

ACE will complete THEIR vision for the game.  Part of that process is sifting ideas from the Community and playing cyclic Tetris with them.  One thing I'm hoping Crowfall has enough of, even within the context of "PvP is the Heart of Crowfall" is:

 

Genetic Diversity in Game Play Outlets.

 

"Genetic diversity refers to both the vast numbers of different species as well as the diversity within a species. The greater the genetic diversity within a species, the greater that species' chances of long-term survival. This is because negative traits (such as inherited diseases = or within our context Toxic Nitwits within the PvP Community) become widespread within a population when that population is left to reproduce only with its own members."

 

All I'm pointing out is that Crowfall isn't going to be another Smite, just with bigger maps.  It is going to be slanted to, and driven by the need to participate in the CWs which are going to die and be reborn with random layouts.  Cool stuff.  I like the idea.

 

Combat is a core dynamic for the game, to whatever level of attention ACE will take it.  Of course.

 

But some of us do have an interest in our Livers and Lungs also, without taking anything away from the Heart.

 

That's all.

That's fine but when they want to ignore the importance of the heart of the game because they are nostalgic about a 13 year old lung that won't be used for crowfall, it is silly.

 

People that don't understand that everything starts with combat and just kind of ignore it or downplay its significance are ignoring the heart of the game. 

 

Some people would love for combat to have a very small influence on the game, some might love winning CWs through EK power... but they are ignoring what is actually being conveyed by the devs.

 

Specifically in regards to shadowbane, a lot of the most diehard shadowbane fans (not exactly people that were the best at the game itself either) think they are entitled to some sorta ownership over crowfall, that it is a game specifically designed just for them and their wildest dreams.  That mentality is being broken over time but I don't think it is truly going to set in for them until beta. 

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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That's fine but when they want to ignore the importance of the heart of the game because they are nostalgic about a 13 year old lung that won't be used for crowfall, it is silly.

 

People that don't understand that everything starts with combat and just kind of ignore it or downplay its significance are ignoring the heart of the game. 

 

Some people would love for combat to have a very small influence on the game, some might love winning CWs through EK power... but they are ignoring what is actually being conveyed by the devs.

 

Specifically in regards to shadowbane, a lot of the most diehard shadowbane fans (not exactly people that were the best at the game itself either) think they are entitled to some sorta ownership over crowfall, that it is a game specifically designed just for them and their wildest dreams.  That mentality is being broken over time but I don't think it is truly going to set in for them until beta. 

 

This is where you need to trust ACE's experience.  That is why you've sent them MONEY, yes?

 

Are you suggesting that your belief is ACE reads someone's post in the forums, that you happen to disagree with, and your fear is that ACE is simply saying on their end . . . "C'mon guys, this dude has it right, lets just code it up right away?"

 

?

 

No one on these forums, not me, not you, not Jah, or anyone else, should have the expectation Crowfall is going to be . . . EXACTLY . . . IN EVERY DETAIL . . . what you personally wanted.

 

I want Combat to be "fluid, nice, dynamic", etc.  Of course.  But that's simply a component to the whole picture to me . . . and that's said within the practical context of the paragraph just above.  It's scaled up a few notches on the importance scale of course, because of how the game is structured around participation in the CWs.  But that still doesn't make my overall attention binary in that regard.

 

Anyway, gonna leave the beating of this horse to others now.

 

Thanks for the tweak on terms like Skill Ceiling and Skill Floors guys.  Some interesting reading out there if you consider those terms relate to mechanics ceilings, not necessarily player-skill ceilings.

 

/waves

Edited by Bramble

“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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This is where you need to trust ACE's experience.  That is why you've sent them MONEY, yes?

 

Are you suggesting that your belief is ACE reads someone's post in the forums, that you happen to disagree with, and your fear is that ACE is simply saying on their end . . . "C'mon guys, this dude has it right, lets just code it up right away?"

 

?

 

Show me anywhere in my post where I suggest that?

 

No one on these forums, not me, not you, not Jah, or anyone else, should have the expectation Crowfall is going to be . . . EXACTLY . . . IN EVERY DETAIL . . . what you personally wanted.

 

Yes but a lot of shadowbane players do have that expectation...

 

I want Combat to be "fluid, nice, dynamic", etc.  Of course.  But that's simply a component to the whole picture to me . . . and that's said within the practical context of the paragraph just above.  It's scaled up a few notches on the importance scale of course, because of how the game is structured around participation in the CWs.  But that still doesn't make my overall attention binary in that regard.

 

Anyway, gonna leave the beating of this horse to others now.

 

Thanks for the tweak on terms like Skill Ceiling and Skill Floors guys.  Some interesting reading out there if you consider those terms relate to mechanics ceilings, not necessarily player-skill ceilings.

 

/waves


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I think this is a much bigger picture that maybe the guys arguing SB game merits maybe just don't see: You guys might be a bit used to doing your own thing a bit unchecked. You're maybe a bit too untamed for a moderated game forum - is that fair to say? 

 

I think the guys arguing SB game merits have been reasonably tame in this thread. Almost all of the drama in this thread has been in response to a single SB hater who is on a mission to provoke and disparage SB players. Is that fair to say?


IhhQKY6.gif

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I think the guys arguing SB game merits have been reasonably tame in this thread. Almost all of the drama in this thread has been in response to a single SB hater who is on a mission to provoke and disparage SB players. Is that fair to say?

And it is all because we want this game to give us the feelings we had playing SB. That Sb hater does not like that.

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And it is all because we want this game to give us the feelings we had playing SB. That Sb hater does not like that.

No one here is an SB hater, some of us just prefer a more objective outlook on what shadowbane was and how it should be analyzed in relation to crowfall. 

 

The feelings people got playing SB are all well and good, but many people got that playing many games.  SB feelings aren't superior, they aren't more entitled to play crowfall.  It's time people started understanding the vision and stopped trying to project super old memories and outdated concepts onto a modern game. 

 

Action combat is here to stay sorry.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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No one here is an SB hater, some of us just prefer a more objective outlook on what shadowbane was and how it should be analyzed in relation to crowfall. 

 

The feelings people got playing SB are all well and good, but many people got that playing many games.  SB feelings aren't superior, they aren't more entitled to play crowfall.  It's time people started understanding the vision and stopped trying to project super old memories and outdated concepts onto a modern game. 

 

Action combat is here to stay sorry.

You do realize that we backed this game knowing it had "action combat"... Don't you think that means that we want that?  This thread even asked us to reflect back. I even read from the SB posters that they posted good and bad. Clearly, we want this game to give us the fun times we had again. So, mind laying off the nuts slobbing?

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You do realize that we backed this game knowing it had "action combat"... Don't you think that means that we want that?  This thread even asked us to reflect back. I even read from the SB posters that they posted good and bad. Clearly, we want this game to give us the fun times we had again. So, mind laying off the nuts slobbing?

Nope, a lot of SB players actually asked for the action combat to be reverted back to tab-target.  And while ACE continues to emphasize that combat is the most important thing, a lot of SB players even in this thread want the game to shift away to things that they personally find more important because in shadowbane they weren't used to a game with good combat so they don't see the value in actually having good combat and how important it is in modern games. 

 

Wanting fun times is all well and good, but JTC asked people to buy into their vision, when they say combat is most important, you should buy into that... Not deny it like some SB players seem to be doing.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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This thread.

 

wut has i dun?

 

 

 

Seriously though - I've learned a hell of a lot so thanks to you guys for the discussion. I did check out a few of the Shadowbane sites. *shudders* 

 

I'm gonna see if I can summarize - just so you guys can see I was staying awake in class...

 

 

Shadowbane was a PVP oriented game quite a bit ahead of its time. It was full loot, high conflict and focused very much on player customization. It also had very many features not found in a lot of other places - like castle sieging. It must have blown a lot of people away in 2003 - probably while they were listening to hardcore hits on their winamps.

 

 

When Shadowbane worked it worked really really well. But it didn't work a lot of the time - especially out of the box. This led to a lot of rage at release and ultimately sank it. As many people remember the bugs and bits that were broken than the actual game-play, which seems to be the main topic of contention.

 

Many people also say "Shadowbane ruined other mmos for me" - which is quite a big statement. I guess other MMOs become a bit shallow in the face of all the choices and diversity that SB brought to the table.. I do get that -  but I think its also possible that Shadowbane ruined them for other mmos.... And that is a bit scary. Like if an mmo doesnt hold up to an incredibly high level of expectation (some of which from here seems reasonable and some of which seems to be a little bit of rose tinted nostalgia) then theres a lot of heat and salt.  

 

And we get that: Shadowbane gave these players a pretty awesome experience in hardcore PvP - and they became the kind of haredcore players that don't sit well in a themepark. Is it fair to say that they get restless and noisy and totally fail to get into the bumper-cars cos they want a more intense thrill all the time?

 

 

 

Now I'm gonna go a bit further... Here's what I learned:

 

Those Shadowbane emu sites.. there's a lot of drama. I was curious to see what the fuss was about so went looking for a game and a community... but oh Christ there's a lot of toxicity. I basically stepped slowly back out of the room.

 

If that stuff ever happened here I think its fair to say CF would fail. New players would RUN. When I see it spill here - I get really nervous.

 

I think this is a much bigger picture that maybe the guys arguing SB game merits maybe just don't see: You guys might be a bit used to doing your own thing a bit unchecked. You're maybe a bit too untamed for a moderated game forum - is that fair to say? 

 

I just think its important that the community stays positive and focused. This thread kinda shows how salty people can get when discussing this stuff, and we do see a lot of rage now and then - especially on other Crowfall fan sites that led to a lot of drama - and sadly even some players rage quitting and those sites dying. Like that's actually really sad.. Community sites falling away.

 

So... regardless of differences of opinions.. on SB good or SB bad.. I hope there's one thing we can all agree on:

 

This community needs to stick together. We need to build it up. We need to focus on what makes Crowfall great - and if we can learn from games like SB or Hello Kitty Island Adventures or whatever then fantastic, but CF is the prize. The community is the prize.

 

 

So TL;DR SB was a groundbreaking game in 2003. When SB worked it was a lot of fun. It didn't always though - but the fans it made were pretty die-hard. I kinda regret I missed it. I love an enthusiastic community... but not a rabid one. People get salty about it. There's rage and drama. Too much. And that stuff means I will never try SB or go further into it.. cos frankly life is too short for ugly fanboy drama.. And sadly SB did have and still has a lot of that going on.That stuff can kill sites. Kill games. Kill communities. It shouldn't happen here. 

 

Yes and no. Here's the thing about Shadowbane: The thing that made it so memorable for us was the sense of community we felt when playing it, but that feeling came from being part of a guild, pitted against the larger "community". Shadowbane (as with Crowfall) was about conquest and territory control between player created factions. The community of a game like that is going to resemble a bunch of warring gangs, with plenty of posturing to go along with it. The Shadowbane Emulators greatly exaggerate this as the "community" are just leftover players who all know and hate one another.

 

What we (Shadowbane players) want out of Crowfall is that same feeling of group survival we found in an FFA pvp environment. It's not that "the community needs to stick together", it's "your community needs to stick together".


Shadowbane - House Avari/Hy'shen
"Gimp elves get good elves killed." - Belina

Avari Discord - https://discord.gg/Bch24PV

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What we (Shadowbane players) want out of Crowfall is that same feeling of group survival we found in an FFA pvp environment. It's not that "the community needs to stick together", it's "your community needs to stick together".

 

Well.. I don't know if you noticed - but this community right now is tiny. Like.. incredibly small.

 

Go through the list of community fan sites and most have lock up shop. The current crow count is 132,000 including those spread across multi accounts..

 

Basically you guys ARE my community. I am yours. We are it. 

Every time that a player leaves, or drops out because they're disenchanted in either the community or the game.. that loses faith in any of us... That's a devastating loss.

 

Maybe when the game runs to open beta things will get bigger - more players will wake up. But right now we're kind of holding the wall together. Outnumbered but sticking with it. 

 

There's only one real community - and we should be focused on making it better - you pack of vicious dogs you!


www.CrowfallRP.com


Disclaimer: My RP with you might become a public story: https://soundcloud.com/shiv-mahon

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Well.. I don't know if you noticed - but this community right now is tiny. Like.. incredibly small.

 

Go through the list of community fan sites and most have lock up shop. The current crow count is 132,000 including those spread across multi accounts..

 

Basically you guys ARE my community. I am yours. We are it. 

Every time that a player leaves, or drops out because they're disenchanted in either the community or the game.. that loses faith in any of us... That's a devastating loss.

 

Maybe when the game runs to open beta things will get bigger - more players will wake up. But right now we're kind of holding the wall together. Outnumbered but sticking with it. 

 

There's only one real community - and we should be focused on making it better - you pack of vicious dogs you!

This community will be unpleasant people to each other as soon as the game launches. You can hide it all you want on the forums, but it will visible in game and it should not be hidden in game...

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