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Durin

Turrets and Beards, Concerns and Suggestions

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The Dwarf--from myth, to Tolkien, to its humble RPG beginnings and into a multitude of digital incarnations--has found its way into Crowfall.   Our Dwarf carries the Shadowbane  rock-skinned aesthetic and moniker, Stoneborn.  The playable archetype will be called the Forgemaster, but what does that mean?  Is he perhaps a combat crafter of some type?  What can we expect from CF Dwarves? 

 

For some time, the Forgemaster  has carried the description "Specialist (Hammer)" and was shown in the Kickstarter promotional video swinging a big hammer, and even throwing through a castle wall! Recent dev comments have made it sound like our Forgemaster may not end up quite like it was shown early on.  It has been hinted that the Forgemaster will be a class that uses turrets.  What this means, exactly, is unknown.  Will we end up with a primarily ranged class with gun turrets (e.g. WAR Engineer), or a class that throws turrets down like Shaman totems in WoW?  Can we reasonably hope that the Forgemaster will retain both some of what was teased and enough of his Dwarf heritage as not to alienate Dwarf fanatics?

 

If we look to the fluff that was created and early concept renderings, we may suspect a few things.  First, the Forgemaster may have sort of elemental resistance, particularly to fire or heat in general (even the concept art has him standing in molten metal).   Second, the concept armor is reminiscent of a geometric, LOTR aesthetic, though he as shown as wearing no chest piece or helmet.  As the Forgemaster is made of living rock, perhaps he will have some basic damage resistance?  If they retain some of the original, Kickstarter material, maybe we can expect a character that is resistant, primarily wields a hammer and also uses turrets on the battlefield.  Those things being established, perhaps we can make suggestions on just how we'd like to see these things realized, and also those particular Dwarven aspects that we think are essential in any archetype inspired by Andvari, Gimli, Thorgrim and Flint.

 

My Dwarf essentials/suggestions: 

 

First and foremost, even though this has nothing to do with the way the archetype operates, all Dwarves are bearded.  Games that allow a beardless option do not have Dwarves in their game.  It is that simple. 

 

Also, Dwarves are short relative to humans, but they are not small.  From the video, it doesn't appear that CF will have an issue with this--they are sufficiently beefy and intimidating looking.  It's a wonderful thing to see. 

 

Dwarves are tough, resilient and have great constitutions.  If Forgemasters have some type(s) of damage resistance, that is either passive or by virtue of a skill, then this can be represented quite easily.

 

In addition, Dwarves are bound, in some way, to the earth.  In CF, the Stoneborn wear this on their skin.   Dwarves are also closely tied to mining, smithing, metallurgy and gems.  Crowfall has its own independent crafting system that will likely be free of Archetype requirements (which is a good thing, IMO).  However, perhaps it is from these two aspects the turret part of the Forgemaster's kit can be developed. 

 

I am not a big fan of the steampunk influence on the Dwarven mythos injected by Warhammer (though I love most everything else Dwarfy there) that, um... inspired Blizzard's Dwarves .  So, I would like to suggest that maybe the turrets themselves could be more elementally than technologically derived, possibly summoned up from the world itself.   For example, let's say that Forgemasters can deploy a turret that does AOE damage.  In other games, this might have been a mechanical thumper turret or some machine that flings grenades.  Maybe, instead in CF, the Forgemaster could smash the ground with is great hammer while shouting some sort of word of power, creating a pit that molten earth pours out of.  Mechanically, it is a turret.  However,  it is somewhat unique whilst still checking the Dwarf boxes.   If Dwarf himself was immune to the damage and stood there taunting the enemy, then we'd have something like the early concept art.  It should be said that if voxels work out as originally designed, the Forgemaster turrets and hammer could do things that we've never seen before in an MMORPG (but I am not holding my breath for this).

 

The Forgemaster could use his hammer in other interesting ways to create (and destroy).   A variety of turrets could be devised that utilize the elements of "Iron, Stone and Flame."  I think just as long as they retain enough classic Dwarfiness and don't let the Forgemaster become some sort of fragile, backline archetype just because ACE has decided to include turrets, it should work out just fine.     

Edited by Regulus

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First and foremost, even though this has nothing to do with the way the archetype operates, all Dwarves are bearded.  Games that allow a beardless option do not have Dwarves in their game.  It is that simple.  

Yep, this gives them more acess to D vitamin, which boosts their Calcium and Phosphorus metabolism boosting and improving their strong bones.

 

The only my suggestion is to be careful with turrets. It would be great if they can build a defensive line before the battle but it is important to avoid making CF the tower defense game. Both druid and ranger have some kind of bomb they can prepare and use in their favor.


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all Dwarves are bearded.  Games that allow a beardless option do not have Dwarves in their game.  It is that simple. 

 

In the words of Terry Pratchett

 

"All dwarfs have beards and wear up to twelve layers of clothing. Gender is more or less optional.

Their courtships are largely concerned with finding out, in delicate and circumspect ways, what sex the other dwarf is."

Edited by Tinnis

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ACE has also said that the Forgemaster could be a Battlerager.

 

Not knowing what that means, I looked it up and it sounds like Battleragers are suicide fighters.

 

So the Forgemaster could be devastating on the battlefield, maybe a mix of the Myrmidon and Champion with Turrets


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ACE has also said that the Forgemaster could be a Battlerager.

 

Not knowing what that means, I looked it up and it sounds like Battleragers are suicide fighters.

 

So the Forgemaster could be devastating on the battlefield, maybe a mix of the Myrmidon and Champion with Turrets

 

they said this........but battlerager has now popped up as one of the Myrm's promotion names...so might of just moved to there :)

 

https://youtu.be/xxIHL619y5A?t=52s

 

Titan
 
Battlerager
 
Conqueror

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Whatever this class may be, I am dying for seeing it. I just hope that it won't be slow or will have some mechanism to speed him up (dwarves are usually slow). Then, I would prefer Champion / Knight.


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Whatever this class may be, I am dying for seeing it. I just hope that it won't be slow or will have some mechanism to speed him up (dwarves are usually slow). Then, I would prefer Champion / Knight.

 

I kind of hope Dwarves/Stoneborn are slower.  One thing we don't have is a turret class (in contrast to a class that uses turrets)--by that I mean a slow or limited mobility, heavily armored/resistant class that holds a position.  This is usually a ranged class, but it could be a combination of AOE, melee and some ranged.  Dwarves are often portrayed/interpreted as defensive turtlers, and I think this could work for the Forgemaster making him unique, sufficiently Dwarfy, and interesting, just as long as he is not exclusively ranged.    

 

EDIT:  And, perhaps since he is the Forgemaster, he could create a forge on the battlefield, where his team could visit (click on) and get a weapon and/or armor buff (flame tongue anyone?).  He could use this as a small, placeable (yet immobile) siege, blasting out gouts of flame and molten metal like a cannon.  In fact, I quite like this idea--building a forge that has multiple uses, from buffs, debuffs, attacks and defense that the Forgemaster mans.  Turrety, Dwarfy, Forgemastery, unique and badass.  

Edited by Regulus

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I kind of hope Dwarves/Stoneborn are slower.  One thing we don't have is a turret class (in contrast to a class that uses turrets)--by that I mean a slow or limited mobility, heavily armored/resistant class that holds a position.  This is usually a ranged class, but it could be a combination of AOE, melee and some ranged.  Dwarves are often portrayed/interpreted as defensive turtlers, and I think this could work for the Forgemaster making him unique, sufficiently Dwarfy, and interesting, just as long as he is not exclusively ranged.    

 

EDIT:  And, perhaps since he is the Forgemaster, he could create a forge on the battlefield, where his team could visit (click on) and get a weapon and/or armor buff (flame tongue anyone?).  He could use this as a small, placeable (yet immobile) siege, blasting out gouts of flame and molten metal like a cannon.  In fact, I quite like this idea--building a forge that has multiple uses, from buffs, debuffs, attacks and defense that the Forgemaster mans.  Turrety, Dwarfy, Forgemastery, unique and badass.  

 

Carrying the mats needed to build a forge, and wanner plant one on the battlefield, all for it.


Huginn ok Muninn, fljúga hverjan dag, Jörmungrund yfir; óumk ek of Hugin,, at hann aftr né komi-t, þó sjámk meir of Munin

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Carrying the mats needed to build a forge, and wanner plant one on the battlefield, all for it.

 

Nah, not like a catapult or other siege--but a skill set, just like any other archetype.  The Forge is bound to the Forgemaster like an immobile pet (i.e., a turret--which really is just an immobile pet), so it would make him an area based, turret archetype (in both senses).  He summons it and gets work done from the Forge.  He can also work independently of it, but is at full power when he uses it.  The current example I would use, and I cringe just a little bit using it, is Torbjorn for Overwatch.  However, Torbjorn's turret is only an immobile ranged damage dealer, but the Forgemaster's Forge would have varied uses, like weapon and armor buffs.  Also, there would be no autolocking... lol... though maybe the Forgemaster could set it to a pulsing AOE, for example. 

 

Having him being required to carry mats just makes him into another siege crafter.  The Forgemaster can indeed be a crafter (just like any other archetype), but the design of his archetype is unique in that he is the master of the forge.  He's the drummer in the band of ass kicking...    


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A forge magically appearing out of nowhere, hmm.. more like an earthen elementalist? Hmm..

​If as proposed u can get your gear from this Forgemaster creation doesn't it circumvent the Whole idea of having a crafting Network?
Edited by Soulreaver

Huginn ok Muninn, fljúga hverjan dag, Jörmungrund yfir; óumk ek of Hugin,, at hann aftr né komi-t, þó sjámk meir of Munin

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A forge magically appearing out of nowhere, hmm.. more like an earthen elementalist? Hmm..

 

​If as proposed u can get your gear from this Forgemaster creation doesn't it circumvent the Whole idea of having a crafting Network?

 

 

I suggested more elemental then technological/mechanical, and that is the way I prefer to see it.  Crafters already build mechanical tools, the Forgemaster is bound to the earth and uses this power in battle.  Perhaps the Forge is an extension of The Great Work?  The Forgemaster summons it up from out of the ground *insert cool animation/effects here*.  While he would use the Forge for various combat related effects, he wouldn't actually build weapons or armor at the Forge.  The Forge, however, could be used to imbue existing items with additional buffs (though temporary weapons/armor could potentially be interesting, if a bit fiddly).  So, if I am playing Forgemaster, I would summon up the Forge, and my team could come use it (click on it) and after a progress bar fills, they receive a weapon/armor buff.  However, the Forge could be used in other ways--perhaps an offensive weapon, a defensive field, slows, buffs, etc.  Forgemasters could build skill trees up based on areas of specialization.  

 

If the Forge would operate like existing siege equipment (that is, you man it and your skill bar changes) or act as additional skill bar for the Forgemaster that he could operate remotely depends on overall design of the archetype.  I kind of like the idea that he has one bar, which includes a Forge summon (probably C).  Once he summons it, he can man it (allowing him an additional bar), or leave it to fight (the rest of his bar skills being hammer (primarily) and elemental (earth and fire) related battle skills).  Again, it could be accessed by his team independent of him to receive buffs (like a lightwell in WoW).  All this being said, the Forge would not have the siege power or the suitability of a catapult, for example, and would be used against players, not fortifications. 

 

This would probably make the Forgemaster a priority target, along with healers/support.  However, he would be tough to kill, because he would suffer mobility disadvantages (a turret character with a turret).  The Forge itself could be destroyed by the enemy, too.  The Forgemaster would anchor the battle line.     


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I like that buff area idea, but it definitely should not be forge or forge-looking thing. Soulreaver is right that a shop can't appear from nowhere. Probably building some stone construction, which will be only a simple desk with weapons / armors on it.

 

But he will be very bad for full loot mode when he dies. People wouldn't like it, so it is necessary to make him ability to somehow not-loose everything (elemental friend that delivers a part of his good to his respawn position). However, this is not solution as well, because he will have then a useless ability for other PvP rules, while he will be advantaged to other classes in the full loots mode. Of course, we can make it that full loot doesn't mean full loot, but it will turn game boring.

 

I think setting up a personal shop to sell goods when you are afk should be possible for every class. But keep Forgemaster away from being just a siege armorer and support. If this ability turns out to be just an aura summoned on the special place, than it will be very cool ability.


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I like that buff area idea, but it definitely should not be forge or forge-looking thing. Soulreaver is right that a shop can't appear from nowhere. Probably building some stone construction, which will be only a simple desk with weapons / armors on it.

 

But he will be very bad for full loot mode when he dies. People wouldn't like it, so it is necessary to make him ability to somehow not-loose everything (elemental friend that delivers a part of his good to his respawn position). However, this is not solution as well, because he will have then a useless ability for other PvP rules, while he will be advantaged to other classes in the full loots mode. Of course, we can make it that full loot doesn't mean full loot, but it will turn game boring.

 

I think setting up a personal shop to sell goods when you are afk should be possible for every class. But keep Forgemaster away from being just a siege armorer and support. If this ability turns out to be just an aura summoned on the special place, than it will be very cool ability.

 

I am going to have to disagree.  I don't think the Forgemaster should be a battlefield vendor like he is selling concessions at a ball game.  I don't see him building or providing any equipment by virtue of his archetype alone.  His turret is a forge because he is the Forgemaster.  It does not require mats because it is a pet, which is part of the unique Forgemaster kit.  It is similar to siegecraft in some respects, but is completely separate with notable differences (anyone archetype could potentially go into siegecraft, or build and provide equipment through other crafting skills, but only the Forgemaster summons the Forge).   

 

Think Torbjorn from Overwatch mixed with a Rune Smith from Old World Warhammer:

 

-->LIKE THIS<---


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Dear god, if they add automated turrets to the game, all aesthetic quality just flies out the window... WTF is wrong with designers these days?


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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I am going to have to disagree.  I don't think the Forgemaster should be a battlefield vendor like he is selling concessions at a ball game.  I don't see him building or providing any equipment by virtue of his archetype alone.  His turret is a forge because he is the Forgemaster.  It does not require mats because it is a pet, which is part of the unique Forgemaster kit.  It is similar to siegecraft in some respects, but is completely separate with notable differences (anyone archetype could potentially go into siegecraft, or build and provide equipment through other crafting skills, but only the Forgemaster summons the Forge).   

 

Think Torbjorn from Overwatch mixed with a Rune Smith from Old World Warhammer:

 

-->LIKE THIS<---

I probably badly expressed / worded my message, but you are saying exactly what I was thinking of. No forge for selling goods during siege as an unique skill for Forgemaster. He could charm somehow a circle in which his allies will have an advantage but definitely not a whole forge...

 

 

I think setting up a personal shop to sell goods when you are afk should be possible for every class. But keep Forgemaster away from being just a siege armorer and support. If this ability turns out to be just an aura summoned on the special place, than it will be very cool ability.

AFK shops with goods were not intended for being bound to Forgemaster and be on the battlefield. It is something that I liked in the 4Story rpg, where you just made a shop in the capital and was selling without being online.


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Dear god, if they add automated turrets to the game, all aesthetic quality just flies out the window... WTF is wrong with designers these days?

Aren't they basically the same thing as a animal/creature type pet? You let them out and they go attack enemies. Only difference is a turret doesn't actually move. Seems a bit trivial and nit picky to call out one but not the other.

 

Though as far as the aesthetics go would prefer if they were more like rune stones or totems than actual engineer, steampunk tinkerer style turrets.  

Edited by pang

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Dear god, if they add automated turrets to the game, all aesthetic quality just flies out the window... WTF is wrong with designers these days?

 

 

Aren't they basically the same thing as a animal/creature type pet? You let them out and they go attack enemies. Only difference is a turret doesn't actually move. Seems a bit trivial and nit picky to call out one but not the other.

 

Though as far as the aesthetics go would prefer if they were more like rune stones or totems than actual engineer, steampunk tinkerer style turrets.  

 

I think that because this is not a tab target game, we do need to be careful of auto targeting.  However, automated in general is kind of a given if you have turrets or pets of any kind--you don't necessarily want to micro manage every thing do.  So, I think you can have pets/turrets that do some basic things on their own, but not all things should be done without player control.  

 

As far as aesthetics are concerned, however the turret(s) are handled (a forge or something else), my first hope is that they are sufficiently dwarfy; my second is that they are more elemental/rune stone orientated as opposed to steampunk/tinker.  The Stoneborn has that whole elemental thing going on...     


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It is also possible to make that dwarf sitting inside his turret like others inside catapults etc. But I would not mind if there is both automated turret and ability to control manually your turret. Manually operated turret may get extra abilities.


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So the earth connection comes from them being children of Gaea; but I find it interesting that they may be elementally aligned with fire, which would suggest Akryn/Arkon.

 

I really hope the class is not like Torbjorn in overwatch though, because I would hate to see static turrets used for player systems.  I like the buff idea of having the Forgemaster throwing an area effect out.

 

The discussion back and forth on how turrets will be used has been amusing; keep up the ideas.


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