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Durin

Turrets and Beards, Concerns and Suggestions

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I really hope the class is not like Torbjorn in overwatch though, because I would hate to see static turrets used for player systems.  I like the buff idea of having the Forgemaster throwing an area effect out.

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Turrets are generally static, especially in their classic MMO iteration.  Essentially, it is a pet that does not move.  ACE could be using the term very loosely, so we'll have to wait and see.  However, my musings are based on the standard use of the term in gaming. 


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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what i would like to see would be something more akin to "izzy and scorch" in paragon. the ability to put out multiple (up to 4 in that game) turrets that are relatively weak when directly targeted, do low damage ticks of AOE DoT and serve mostly an area denial role. they force someone to choose whether they want to stay and fight (but take a nasty hit to hp) or to run away/advance.

 

i don't say this because i want to see this game ripping ideas from another but because area denial is a fairly unique specialty overall and can have a large and interesting impact on fights.

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I don't like the idea of a turret.

 

We have siege engines.  Have a turret that fires stuff seems redundant.

 

With this said and done, I would be happy to see some kind of fixed emplacement that provides area of effect buffs and debuffs.

 

The forgemaster builds his forge (which should require time and materials)

The forgemaster empowers runes which might (hypothetically)

 

  • boost armor
  • slow down the enemy
  • shield an area from view
  • Erect a large earthen barrier

The longer the forge remains in place / is powered, the stronger these effects become

 

Associated with this, I'd like to see the forgemaster be able to shift around large amounts of earth

 

A forgemaster working for the defenders might be able to build a moat or a defensive ditch

 

A forgemaster working for the attacker might build slit trenches to approach a fortress while evading enemy fire


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"The cinnabar is a lie"

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I like the buff idea, but was hoping there would be a profession for administering combat buffs, similar to doctor/entertainer from SWG.

 

Example buffs:

- not needing food for a long duration, unless heavily damaged in combat.

- quick-feet:  speed boost

- heavy arms: temporary increased resource inventory slots

- true hero : grants x% increase to the attack speed of allies around you. The cost being, you literally have a floating target above your head.

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what i would like to see would be something more akin to "izzy and scorch" in paragon. the ability to put out multiple (up to 4 in that game) turrets that are relatively weak when directly targeted, do low damage ticks of AOE DoT and serve mostly an area denial role. they force someone to choose whether they want to stay and fight (but take a nasty hit to hp) or to run away/advance.

 

i don't say this because i want to see this game ripping ideas from another but because area denial is a fairly unique specialty overall and can have a large and interesting impact on fights.

 

I don't know about "izzy and scorch", but I do agree that area denial is on my mind when it comes to this archetype.  I think that would be unique and interesting, and if handled with care, very dwarfy. 

 

I don't like the idea of a turret.

 

We have siege engines.  Have a turret that fires stuff seems redundant.

 

With this said and done, I would be happy to see some kind of fixed emplacement that provides area of effect buffs and debuffs.

 

The forgemaster builds his forge (which should require time and materials)

The forgemaster empowers runes which might (hypothetically)

 

  • boost armor
  • slow down the enemy
  • shield an area from view
  • Erect a large earthen barrier

The longer the forge remains in place / is powered, the stronger these effects become

 

Associated with this, I'd like to see the forgemaster be able to shift around large amounts of earth

 

A forgemaster working for the defenders might be able to build a moat or a defensive ditch

 

A forgemaster working for the attacker might build slit trenches to approach a fortress while evading enemy fire

 

I didn't come up with "turret" out of the blue--ACE did.  The words thusly they spaketh, and thou shalt recognize that we're getting turrets.  But, they could be very loose with that term, and I could see how they could get creative (let's hope).  Again, because turret(s)/Forge is not siege and is part of the kit of the Forgemaster, it should not cost resources (unless it is equivalent to ammo for bows--and only that if he is pretty useful without the Forge).  It is an ability integral to the archetype, so forced mat gathering for him to be effective is a silly burden which will cause him to yoyo between OP and UP (unless, again, he's pretty decent without it).  

 

I like the buff idea, but was hoping there would be a profession for administering combat buffs, similar to doctor/entertainer from SWG.

 

Example buffs:

- not needing food for a long duration, unless heavily damaged in combat.

- quick-feet:  speed boost

- heavy arms: temporary increased resource inventory slots

- true hero : grants x% increase to the attack speed of allies around you. The cost being, you literally have a floating target above your head.

 

Buffs are good, I just caution making him into a buff bot or mana battery.  If that is what he becomes, that's all he will ever be--and groups will be forced to have a Frogemaster twisting buff rotations to compete, which frankly sounds like utter crap. 


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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siege engines will be for sieges, not for random combat encounters in the world (unless you want to be dragging a giant cart around with you everywhere you go).  Turrets (if they are anything like turrets in other MMO's like guild wars 2 and warhammer online) are small stationary anti infantry items.  They'll be useless against castles but can help secure a specific area.  Good for PvE and for holding key pieces of terrain in PVP.  Not as useful in random pvp encounters as the enemy can always decide to just stay out of range of your turret.

 

There is one discipline that lets you build golems, what would be really cool is if there was a combined discipline between that and the forgemaster that allowed the forgemaster to add turrets or other mechanical devices to the golem, turning it into a war golem or something.  I seriously doubt that would happen but it would be cool.

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I think we can do better than some pet siege based support class. 

 

I think you're getting a pet based class.  We can all hope that he is very fun to play and add our suggestions.  Of course, they may scrap the turret idea all together, but it seems doubtful. 

 

I don't hate turret classes--either those with turret pets or those that act as turrets themselves.  They can be fun, and there is a void currently there in CF.  I suppose it is all in the execution... 


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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I'm down with this idea, though it may alter my ultimate choice for archetype as I tend not to play characters that rely heavily on immobile summons.

Still sounds wonderful, and I hope it goes in this fashion, but not something I myself would play. 

 

We'll see how this develops.

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DAoC Animist class had some heavy strengths and countervailing weaknesses. Getting a bunch of animists to build a mushroom farm was a very powerful way to defend fixed fortifications like realm gates and relic keeps. The class was weak in the open field, though- at least it was until they improved the bombers.

 

There are a lot of ways a turret class could be designed, some better than others. ACE will need to be careful that they don't end up with a class that only gets logged in for sieges, though.


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

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what i would like to see would be something more akin to "izzy and scorch" in paragon. the ability to put out multiple (up to 4 in that game) turrets that are relatively weak when directly targeted, do low damage ticks of AOE DoT and serve mostly an area denial role. they force someone to choose whether they want to stay and fight (but take a nasty hit to hp) or to run away/advance.

 

i don't say this because i want to see this game ripping ideas from another but because area denial is a fairly unique specialty overall and can have a large and interesting impact on fights.

Imagine like a hundred dwarves, all laying down turrets at the same time during sieges.

 

The horror

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Let's wait and see what ACE is planning for the stoneborn before we get too excited about those plans either way.

Dear god, if they add automated turrets to the game, all aesthetic quality just flies out the window... WTF is wrong with designers these days?

ACE devs are mostly reasonable so far, and players can suggest any silly thing they want on the forums.

Let's give ACE some credit until they pop that boner.

Aren't they basically the same thing as a animal/creature type pet? You let them out and they go attack enemies. Only difference is a turret doesn't actually move. Seems a bit trivial and nit picky to call out one but not the other.

 

Though as far as the aesthetics go would prefer if they were more like rune stones or totems than actual engineer, steampunk tinkerer style turrets.  

Lots of players (me included) begged for a no pet policy on these premises, to be fair.

But pets are in, and if you're still here, I guess you can tolerate them.

Turrets sound like an even worse idea to me, but I guess we can hear ACE out on the subject before rushing to judgement.

Edited by BurgundytheRed

Honestly, you are the type of person that is much to competitive, has zero compassion for other people and think you are better than everyone else. You likely love to troll people on a day to day bases to get others angry and laugh about it. You make playing any online game unfun for everyone else.  -Kuroaka

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I've been pretty interested in the Forgemaster and over the days and weeks and months I've come to develop an idea of what I'd like to see out of this class. It looks something like this..

 

His main mechanic is...obviously his Forge. But like others have suggested, he uses his Forge to actually perform his abilities. I.e

 

#1 - summon your Forge. You can recast to move your Forge to another location.

#2 - use your Forge to build a linear wall on both sides of your Forge. (I think this would be cool with moving your Forge because you can pull off some life saving moves or use it to trap in enemies)

#3 - AoE buff to allies, probably extra fire damage on attacks or I could see it being a defensive buff too.

#4 - turn your shield into a stationary ranged cannon or something

#5 and #6 - maybe hammer abilities?

 

Just something I think would be cool. Using your Forge to modify abilities/be the point of origin for abilities. But obviously I have no idea what they have planned

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I've been pretty interested in the Forgemaster and over the days and weeks and months I've come to develop an idea of what I'd like to see out of this class. It looks something like this..

 

His main mechanic is...obviously his Forge. But like others have suggested, he uses his Forge to actually perform his abilities. I.e

 

#1 - summon your Forge. You can recast to move your Forge to another location.

#2 - use your Forge to build a linear wall on both sides of your Forge. (I think this would be cool with moving your Forge because you can pull off some life saving moves or use it to trap in enemies)

#3 - AoE buff to allies, probably extra fire damage on attacks or I could see it being a defensive buff too.

#4 - turn your shield into a stationary ranged cannon or something

#5 and #6 - maybe hammer abilities?

 

Just something I think would be cool. Using your Forge to modify abilities/be the point of origin for abilities. But obviously I have no idea what they have planned

 

FM is high on list as well and could definitely be my main archetype DEPENDING on how they are handled (I, too, have no idea what they have planned exactly).  He's on my "short list", anyway.  I think, though, that if they use the forge or similar turret system, that the FM design could benefit from two bars--one would be the "forge"; the other would be the "hammer"--oooh, Hammer and Anvil... I kind of like that.  At any rate, the Forge would be a bar something like you describe.  The Hammer bar would be where "Specialist: Hammer" comes in. 

 

Alternatively, they could have the FM run around with is hammer "casting" turrets with a single bar.  However, this alternative could potentially lead to more automation than some would like in CF.  This is not necessarily the case, however, and depends on just what ACE means by turret.  I, for one, am very eager to find out.           


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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FM is high on list as well and could definitely be my main archetype DEPENDING on how they are handled (I, too, have no idea what they have planned exactly).  He's on my "short list", anyway.  I think, though, that if they use the forge or similar turret system, that the FM design could benefit from two bars--one would be the "forge"; the other would be the "hammer"--oooh, Hammer and Anvil... I kind of like that.  At any rate, the Forge would be a bar something like you describe.  The Hammer bar would be where "Specialist: Hammer" comes in. 

 

I didn't think about two trays for the FM. I kinda like that more actually...The only concern I would have would be ICD on tray swap and moving the forge and stuff like that. It would make it really hard to peel for a teammate or lock someone into a choke point if you have to wait a second or two after swapping trays, a second or two to move the forge, and maybe some cast time. But if they iterate on tray swap and make it more responsive and quick. I think that could potentially provide a really high skill ceiling. I really like that idea if implemented well

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 I am guessing, ( and hoping ) that they will place artifact like object. Magically forged crystals and the sort. That have effects like increasing damage resists and debuffing the enemy or even damaging them with magic aoe or single target, or, ( and I like this one ) let him make a golem or construct like that,  I would prefer ti see a more a artificer look to their abilities. They have that master magical craft look to them. Like Norse myth dwarfs. Give me the iron ribbon that tied Fenrir down. Not Torbjorn's gun. 

Edited by Meta-Play

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One of the things to keep in mind about turrets is that they do not have to be mechanical. All a turret is, is a localized spell, effect, or stationary pet. They could do them in a number of ways to fit the style of the game and class. Runes for example, or totems are good options.

 

I am personally not a big fan of turrets, because they are always semi lackluster. Currently Crowfall is a very mobile game, and turrets play to the opposite of that. If the core skills are too tied into a stationary mechanic, with slow base movement speed, it may very well kill the forge-masters usefulness outside of turtling situations. 

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I am personally not a big fan of turrets, because they are always semi lackluster. Currently Crowfall is a very mobile game, and turrets play to the opposite of that. If the core skills are too tied into a stationary mechanic, with slow base movement speed, it may very well kill the forge-masters usefulness outside of turtling situations. 

 

 I disagree only in that I think a AT that can create zoning effects can be super useful in group play. Either in defending siege positions, or pushing a slow advance into the castle walls. creating a AE zone that can force enemies to stay back and allies a place to hide and maybe get a heal before fighting again. All this would be so good for tactical group play. Physical barriers or just damage zones go a long way to turn the tide of some fights in games. 

 

 

 Of course, I guess I am assuming they won't be lackluster turrets. Here is hoping, they have the potential to do some interesting things with him. 

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 I disagree only in that I think a AT that can create zoning effects can be super useful in group play. Either in defending siege positions, or pushing a slow advance into the castle walls. creating a AE zone that can force enemies to stay back and allies a place to hide and maybe get a heal before fighting again. All this would be so good for tactical group play. Physical barriers or just damage zones go a long way to turn the tide of some fights in games. 

 

 

 Of course, I guess I am assuming they won't be lackluster turrets. Here is hoping, they have the potential to do some interesting things with him

 

The main issue I have with having different movement speeds, and stationary mechanics in a very mobile game, is that it really limits what those classes can do in organized play. It is important for a group to move together and move quickly and differing movement speeds is a nightmare for that kind of coordination. Having a class based off of being stationary just doesn't work when fights are fast paced and mobile, which in turn makes these classes more niche, and used in more strategic defenses and sieges.

 

That is not necessarily an issue if that is how they want them to be designed, but a niche role is and niche role. On paper having tactical roles seems nice, but in reality it means that those roles are simply too niche to be used in larger coordinated play, and it is not as if you can spend all your time in a keep defense or waiting for one. That is the issue with tactical play. Change the terrain and now you are a waste for your group over a more general class.

 

It is something that has been seen time and again with turret builds and classes in a vast majority of MMO's and FPS. Think about games like GW2, WAR, WoW, and TF2, and now overwatch. 

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devs said during the livestream the next archetype will be revealed in about 2 weeks.  But they also said they are getting better and better with each one they release (not more powerful but more thought put into each one and more polish) so at least we should get a pretty solid guy when he is finally released.  Regardless of how powerful he is I'll be playing one at launch, can't pass up on a construct building character.

 

Also, when it comes to move speed, keep in mind we will have mounts, so in terms of out of combat move speed everyone should be somewhat similar, and once a giant melee starts while people are moving they are not typically moving in a straight line in one direction so even slower characters can be involved.  We'll see when he comes out though.

 

One way they could balance out this class moving at slower speeds is to give them a stamina regen boost (to show how hardy they are) so they don't sprint as fast but can sprint longer.

Edited by jasta85

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