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Economy and EK-crafters lobbying for the Higher Realms


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What is the situation ?

EKs - no import, no export, worst materials

God's reach - good import, bad export, bad materials

The infected - medium import, medium export, medium materials

The shadows - bad import, good export, good materials

The Dreggs - worst import, best export, best materials

 

What type of crafter am I ?

Exclusively EK - I stay there mostly, craft my gear in safety and sell them or give them to my team

        For that I get my resources with trades (against my services or other resources) or get them from my allies

Exclusively CW - I go there by my self, craft on-site and equip my allies. As soon as the campaign ends, I hop in a new one

        For that my allies give me resources and I craft for them

Mixed - I equip my allies in CW, eventually in EKS and bring back stuff to expand my shop

        For that I get resources myself 

 

Now the core of the subject :

CW-exclusive crafters can go anywhere, they aren't bound by the EK, but for the others it isn't the same.

With the no-import rules, your clients AND allies are restricted to the lower realms (God's, Infected) because whatever equipment they buy/get from you, they won't be allowed to bring them in the higher realms (Shadows, Dreggs). This brings the main focus of EK-Crafters on the lower realms, 'cause that is where you'll sell your stuff. On the other side, this makes EK-Crafters completely useless to Guilds that wish to fight in the Shadows or Dreggs, since this is where they're supposed to fight. 

 

Why is that a problem ?

The wealthiest ones (Players from the Dreggs and Shadows since there is a lot of resources there) don't have a reason to spend this money on your crafting, a mechanic that lessens the impact the economy AND crafting have on those players. They can be fully independent electrons, which I think is counter-productive if we want a game where economy, logistic supply and crafting matter. 

Now I know some are already dying and typing behind their screens, but what I advocate for is only very small import rules for these realms (one item or two max). With only 1 item, you will decide to pick the best of the best and hence create a connexion between backline-crafters and players (which is currently lacking) without giving to big of an advantage (this is only for early start) or lessening the necessity for frontline-crafters (items will break at some point). 
 

Ideas, Suggestions, Arguments ?

(I poorly explained this idea in an other thread, but I wanted to discuss it further with you guys)
(It also completes an other post I'm writing, but it was too big of a point to put in the second post without over-complexifying it. If you're here for the second post, think that if Dreggs have no need for backline crafters, then it will further reduce the number of clients less-popular disciplines have, thus jeopardizing their position)

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What you bring up, is one of the reasons I have suggested allowing for unlimited import of vanity items into the dregs/shadow.  Vanity items should take high-tiered resources to create, but won't effect game play.  By allowing vanity items to be imported into the dregs/shadow you now have goods moving back and forth, and have full circulation of the economy.

 

Also crafting is not just about making money; some crafters like to craft just to supply their guild, and they will not be looking for a profit.  Also I think your off on no import/export in the EKs, because where else would exported resources go from the CW but into the EKs; aka importing into the EKs.

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I think we'll find that no-import rulesets, even in the dregs, will be quite rare.  That wasn't the impression they gave at kickstarter start, but I think Raph will have explained to them that you can't have a meaningful economic system in Crowfall if there's an artificially constrained demand for the best goods, and an artificially constrained lack of incentive to export raw crafting materials from the dregs etc.  Either that, or the example of no-import dregs campaign was seized upon by people who decree on behalf of ACE that because the dregs example provided was no-import that all dregs campaigns would be no-import.

 

So I fully expect to see most of the inner band campaign worlds allowing significant import, to make it important to export raw materials for crafting.

 

It's possible that they'll say, "No, zero-import rulesets encourage the best crafters to get into the CW to make the goods in there for use in there" and we'll see little exported raw materials trickle down to EK crafters and so on as a result.  But my best guess is that there'll be plenty of imports into most campaign worlds.

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What you bring up, is one of the reasons I have suggested allowing for unlimited import of vanity items into the dregs/shadow.  Vanity items should take high-tiered resources to create, but won't effect game play.  By allowing vanity items to be imported into the dregs/shadow you now have goods moving back and forth, and have full circulation of the economy.

That is if we can craft these items and aren't obliged to buy them, but otherwise yes. Though I don't think vanity item crafting will be a thing lots of crafters intend to do, hence leaving the problem as it is : aside from a few specialized in vanity items, the rest of the community would be totaly out.

 

Also crafting is not just about making money; some crafters like to craft just to supply their guild, and they will not be looking for a profit.  

I covered that aspect while saying "give them to my team" in the EK part. And even if they don't give it for profit, the way things are now they won't be useful at all for their team (hear Guild, groupe of friends,...) since their crafted equipment can't be brought in the Dreggs. 

 

Also I think your off on no import/export in the EKs, because where else would exported resources go from the CW but into the EKs; aka importing into the EKs

I see what you mean. You're right but in the end import and export rules are described for each type of CW so it doesn't change much.

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You're looking at it a bit backwards. The people in Gods Reach will be the market for high end items. This is the world band that allows you to keep and repair things and to some extent prevent gear loss. Just because the lower bands are the main consumer, doesn't mean that the economy won't work. It's intended that way.

 

People that play in the dregs are doing it for one of two reasons: for the competition or for the profit. Crafters that play in the dregs will have the best stuff to sell *If they win* which is an important thing to consider when talking about exporting. You can go into the dregs and lose and get nothing. You can also go into the Dregs and win and get nothing if you never managed to stash anything. The wealthiest players will be the ones that perform the best in whatever band they are in. If I go into the Dregs and come out with a pile of rare materials, I have no use for it outside of building up my EK. I'd probably use the materials to trade for VIP tokens or buildings or I simply amass it because I can.

 

The point I'm making is that even though the dregs is the most competitive ring, they players that are in it don't want your items. Importing is a handicap and Dregs players don't want a handicap. You may find that EK buildings take hundreds of thousands of low tier stone to build and you can farm that all day with your big EK stone Quarry. That may be the most valuable resource in the game. You can't judge the value of things based on rarity alone.

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You're looking at it a bit backwards. The people in Gods Reach will be the market for high end items. This is the world band that allows you to keep and repair things and to some extent prevent gear loss. Just because the lower bands are the main consumer, doesn't mean that the economy won't work. It's intended that way.

 

People that play in the dregs are doing it for one of two reasons: for the competition or for the profit. Crafters that play in the dregs will have the best stuff to sell *If they win* which is an important thing to consider when talking about exporting. You can go into the dregs and lose and get nothing. You can also go into the Dregs and win and get nothing if you never managed to stash anything. The wealthiest players will be the ones that perform the best in whatever band they are in. If I go into the Dregs and come out with a pile of rare materials, I have no use for it outside of building up my EK. I'd probably use the materials to trade for VIP tokens or buildings or I simply amass it because I can.

 

The point I'm making is that even though the dregs is the most competitive ring, they players that are in it don't want your items. Importing is a handicap and Dregs players don't want a handicap. You may find that EK buildings take hundreds of thousands of low tier stone to build and you can farm that all day with your big EK stone Quarry. That may be the most valuable resource in the game. You can't judge the value of things based on rarity alone.

You're right, I've been rewatching all the ACE Q&A this morning and they wanted for the Dreggs to be completely off the market for the EKs. You go there as a crafter to gather better resources, but are supposed to sell the better equipment crafted to the outer realms. 

Check ACE Q&A October 2015 where they takled the subject.

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  • 2 weeks later...

This might be a bit off-topic, but I just checked that Q&A, and I just now found out that you can sell VIP-time in-game? Do they mean the one you can buy for real cash? If so... how is that not P2W? (not trying to accuse the game of being P2W, or trying to troll... i'm just genuenly curious about this...) o_O

 

It's probably just like most MMOs these days; you can either just buy paid time with your day-job, or if you have the spare in-game currency you can buy paid time off the in-game market... The 'pay to win'ness of this depends entirely on what paid time or in-game funds gets you...

 

For examples, look at Eve Online (plex) or even World of Warcraft (wow token). Typically the ability to convert real cash into game cash only serves to inflate the costs of in-game goods and doesn't appreciably affect the balance of power. It also helps to keep the Asians from farming your game (and your players) as an uncontrolled third party that people will use if you don't offer some kind of controlled RMT.

 

I expect Crowfall will be more Eve-like than Wow-like for the simple reason that stuff breaks in Crowfall. In WoW you buy a token for like $20, sell it for 25,000 gold, and buy nearly top tier gear with it that you can use until you replace it with raid/pvp gear: once you buy it, it's yours forever. In Wow you can only wear stuff you have the level to use, which can speed up the act of leveling - but ultimately gold cannot really buy levels so that's the balance.

 

In Eve you buy a plex, sell it for ISK, and spend that ISK on all kinds of stuff you'll eventually lose. Unlike Wow though you can buy stuff with ISK that can accelerate your ability to acquire character skills (implants). Luckily, as a PvP (player skill over numerical advantage) game, the value of a skill is pretty flat... You can get a "4" in a skill in a few days, and a "5" in a few weeks - but the difference between 4 and 5 is only a few percent and really only unlocks other skills/ships. So while you can fill your head full of tech (that you will lose when you get killed) that will shave weeks off of some of the stupidly long train skills, it ultimately doesn't amount to much except a smaller investment of time.

 

So in both examples it's really "pay to level faster" - which only matters if the time investment to level greatly matters.

 

The way I look at it, as a user of RMT in most games, is that I'm trading money for time... I work roughly 60 hours a week, so I don't have solid ten-hour blocks of time to dedicate to my game of choice in order to stay level or market competitive with folks who have nothing but free time - but what I do have is cash. So if I can leverage cash to remain in the same ballpark as folks with infinite free time, it balances out.

Edited by raeshlavik

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  • 2 weeks later...

EKs are not zero import / export.. Actually EKs are full import / export:

 

Thats where your loot goes to and where you build permanent kingdoms.

 

Its the limits on the other types of realms that decide the restrictions - but it should be fully possible to trade between EKs without restrictions for example.

 

In fact resources from the high level realms will be required to perform repairs: For example if you flag your EK for PvP and your citadel gets damaged  - or if you fail to pay taxes and it falls into disrepair thenyou will need to source resources from the dregs or else trade them from someone who has won a campaign there.

 

Because of the permanence aspect EKs will become the major trade hubs: anyone planning a serious campaign or wanting to master crafting will start by maximising their EK.

Edited by Deloria

www.CrowfallRP.com


Disclaimer: My RP with you might become a public story: https://soundcloud.com/shiv-mahon

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EKs are not zero import / export.. Actually EKs are full import / export:

 

Thats where your loot goes to and where you build permanent kingdoms.

 

Its the limits on the other types of realms that decide the restrictions - but it should be fully possible to trade between EKs without restrictions for example.

 

In fact resources from the high level realms will be required to perform repairs: For example if you flag your EK for PvP and your citadel gets damaged  - or if you fail to pay taxes and it falls into disrepair thenyou will need to source resources from the dregs or else trade them from someone who has won a campaign there.

 

Because of the permanence aspect EKs will become the major trade hubs: anyone planning a serious campaign or wanting to master crafting will start by maximising their EK.

 

i'm not happy to see you, that's an imperial palace in my pocket.  :P

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Your missing a big element here. Its going to take large amounts of resources to win a campaign, more then what you will take back to the EK in most cases. Your going to need to make forts and keeps and strong hold (maybe), your going to need to make weapons, armor, food, pots, upgrades for your body. On top of that you will need to repair and replace a lot of these items in the campaign world not the EK. Crafters will be needed before and after the campaign starts. Your going to get your best training as a crafter in the campaign worlds. The stuff you craft in the EK will be just for the EK or things that will be taken into the start of the campaign world.  

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