Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...

Fear for Crowfall-crafting : too much isn't always for the best


Recommended Posts

Long story short, a question flourished in my mind regarding crafting : Will we be enough for all the crafting disciplines we already have ? 

 

Part 1) Lets (quickly) speculate a number of players :

EVE - Comparision :

reached 500 000 in 2013 after 10 years (no more recent data) and has a concurrent-player level of 47 000 on average from 2012 to end2014 (so around when player played the most, with the most known subscriptions).

 

For the sake of the explanation, lets say all teams match each others in number + worlds are evenly populated/the same length

- CF Global :

We are 140 000 backers now, and can hope to reach the 500k cap quicker*. Lets say 220 000 players 1 year after launch**.

[(220 000*47 000)/500 000]= 21 000 concurrent players in CF 

- CF Per World :

21 000 players, but 4 different worlds (I won't add EKs, cause they complicate the math). So 21 000 divided by 4 is 5 200 (for all the types of worlds up at the same time).

- CF per side :

It is either Team, God, Guild or FFA. We'll take the Team-case for the explanation 'cause it's the easiest (no "alliances").

3 teams, so 5200 becomes 1 750 active players at the same time.

 

To sum it up, only 1 750 players/CW/side (I chose active players over subscribers, ask if you need).

 

Part 2) Consequences on crafting

We have a LOT of activities in CF # (just check the current disciplines list in the forums):

- fight (the biggest ratio) and explore 

- craft for weapons (axes, bows, swords, shields, staffs, books, arrows, pistols and rapiere)

- craft armors and runes

- craft for siege offense (ballistas, catapult) and defence (walls, magic protection)

- craft for bodies

- gather resources (stones, gems, wood) and harvest for food (wheat, plants,...)

- tame (mounts)

 

This is very cool to have all this stuff to do, but ACE's aim is to create a crafting system deep enough to make crafting great again... 

And if we consider all the specializations possible, the small player population and other things that reduce the number of players dedicated to crafting in CW [EKs##, uneven dispatch of crafters between sides,...], I fear we may end with NO specializations at all.

 

I fear there will be just enough crafters to cover the basic needs for war (weapon and food) to the point that lesser needed disciplines (gems, ballistas) won't be picked. Or worse, to the point that we have to forget a few archetypes because you can't find suitable equipements for them. Example :

Imagine I picked a ForgeMaster specialized in Combat, but because of crafters scarcity I find no equipment... Now I've neither got a forgemaster that can be competitive (not the right equipment) nor a good other fighting archetype (I maxed forgemaster skills). This creates a big gap between me and other players.

On the otherside, imagine I picked a crafter specialized in hammers, the favorite weapon of Forgemasters. With the priority beeing on the equipment of the most favorite archetypes (Mymidon ?), I get less resources/clients... In a word ? Useless. Now I lack crafting-skills in the most popular fields and clients to continue because they left for other archetypes.

 

Now you'll maybe say "basic law of offer and demand my sweet summer child", but you can't say that in CF : If I train in a direction that everybody slowly loses interest in , then I'm custarded because of passive training ... And even if I now decide to train my swordsmithery, I'll always be behind others... better buy a new account (good for ACE, but leaves a bad taste in the player's mouth). 

Not that I have a problem with crafters able to do several things, but it should be a choice ("I want to do whatever I can for my team") , and not an obligation ("well I lost my job, better start crafting poorly made daggers or suicide and be reborn"). Moreover, if the aim of this game IS to make crafting one of its core features, then I think it would be for the best to be able to specialize in a type of crafting.

 

I personally can think of a few solutions to solve the problem :

- reduce crafting time (but raises gameplay problems + a single smith becomes a factory by himself)

- allow to switch weapons-types for archetypes (solves the problem for PvPers, not crafters)

- unify weapon-crafting under categories based on material (bow and staff is wood, ... but I hate that idea)

- make food crafting disappear (and the starvation system with it) (that one I prefer)

In a nutshell, either improve the amount of players a crafter reaches or reduce the number of activities

 

I realize that this subject is heavily based on the speculation that there won't be enough players to fill all crafters' positions. Feel free to contest these predicated figures. If you have a solution to that problem, or if you don't even think it is one, be my guest. 

 

* in years, not in subscriptions/month (I won't discuss it here, we just need common numbers for the explanation)

** maybe optimistic

 

# Why I seperate activities ? CF is supposed to make crafting great again, not make it a side discipline 

## see this post : http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/13074-economy-and-ek-crafters-lobbying-for-the-higher-realms/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Crowfall won't have deep crafting. It's my expectation that a basic crafting skill will have a small number of basic recipes that are modified by resources or cross professional additions (ex: gems, enchanting etc). There will also be difficulty tiers. More than likely the interesting part will be resource combination system and the crafting point system if they decide to add it. Each of these crafting professions will take 6 months to a year to train and for the most part they will just be an economic vehicle.

 

Take into account the Ultima Online system for Crafting (the original system). You had a skill like Blacksmithing which had different categories like shields, swords, axes, hammers and armor. Each category had maybe 5-10 pieces in it. Each piece could be made with 1 of 10 ores. Each item had a skill range with a hidden percentage of how likely it was to craft and the item could be poor, normal, exceptional or GM. Because of these variables, you could potentially craft hundreds or thousands of things without ever crafting the same item twice. In Crowfall the variables will be expanded but, the idea is the same. If crafting 1,000 shields trying to find the perfect combination of stats and durability doesn't excite you, then the crafting will probably be boring for you.

 

Consider for a second that in order to achieve mastery and all of the default recipes for a single profession it could take 12-24 months of passive training and then multiply that by 20 different professions and you'll start to see the scale and potential. That's not even considering the value of trade, merchants and impact of durability and full loot, spread across thousands of players over a long duration.

 

I think the system will be plenty big. You just can't look at the simple items and see them as boring. You have to look at the big picture.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If crafting 1,000 shields trying to find the perfect combination of stats and durability doesn't excite you, then the crafting will probably be boring for you.

 

This will notably require crafters to have at least a decent understanding of how combat works for each archetype. A stalker needs very different gear from a champion. Even within an archetype, different disciplines and abilities can drastically alter how a vessel handles. The best crafters will tailor their creations to the individual.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[...]

 

I never said I find the system boring (if what you said happens, which is what i also hope for the game, it will be fun), but I fail to see the point you're trying to bring up ?

- What I meant is that there will be too many crafting disciplines for the amount of players actually interested in picking craft/harvest as a main occupation. With too much of one (disciplines) and too few of the other (players), some disciplines won't actually find people interested (to buy them, not on a fun to no-fun scale as you may have understood it) in their crafts [why bother with an enchanted stone when I don't even have enough arrows to shoot]. These disciplines, unable to find clients, will switch to others crafts without being able to compete with the ones already in the trade since they, as you said, are 6 months of skill training and countless practice hours ahead.

- Now, what I understand from your post is that the system will be very interesting, that it will take a long time to master your art and that if you don't like empiric and long methods, don't bother crafting. Not that I don't agree with what you're saying, but as I said, I fail to see the link between a ratio of players over disciplines and a number of training hours.

 

That is unless you're trying to say that the empiric crafting system in itself will be fun enough to keep you hooked on the discipline even if no one wants to buy your products ? If so, then you're right I'm not ready for crafting x). Empiric crafting by itself won't keep me long in a discipline (though it won't stop me from experimenting until I found the best combination), since the primary aim is for me to create a merchant company through my creations. 

 

 

On an other note, I'm intrigued by the "crafting point system" you're talking about. I guess it is something someone in the forums brought up, but I'm interested.

More than likely the interesting part will be resource combination system and the crafting point system if they decide to add it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

KingJack974,

You seem to be forgetting that one crafting-dedicated crow can quickly master multiple craft niches using the Vessel System, giving different vessels different starting and discipline runes. And VIP tickets allow you to train 3 archetypes at once.

Sure, at launch crafting will be very limited and many will be generalists, but as players master skills in different craft niches, they will often branch out into other areas, including mastering undermanned craft niches. This is another place where good discipline and planning should serve guilds well.

We will also gain access to increasing amounts of top quality resources, recipes and tameable breeds over time in the EK (from exports).

 

There is still too little known by players to be sure the CF economic system will work, and lack of players will surely kill the game, but I think not in the way you've described.

Edited by chancellor

I think the K-Mart of MMO's already exists!  And it ain't us!   :)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

KingJack974,

You seem to be forgetting that one crafting-dedicated crow can quickly master multiple craft niches using the Vessel System, giving different vessels different starting and discipline runes. And VIP tickets allow you to train 3 archetypes at once.

VIP won't matter for crafting, unless they change things up.  For now the only crafting that can be done is on the general skills list, not any of the archetypes.  VIP currently only allows for 3 combat archetypes to be trained at a time, while we can still only train 1 general skill at a time.  So it is financially better to not spend on VIP (unless you got it from your bundle) and just purchase 3 to 4 more accounts.

 

I do agree that depending on runes/disciplines placed on different vessels we may see specialization in crafting, above and beyond the simple "I'm a blacksmith".

Edited by Teufel

lUvvzPy.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm sorry I must have misunderstood your initial post just scanning over it. I think it's good to have crafting professions that nobody wants to play or train initially. That's good for economic diversity. Not many people will probably want to train farming as their first profession but, the people that do will be unique and important. Also, the most popular professions like necromancy will be over-saturated and difficult to compete in. Many guilds will strive to be self sufficient but, the single players and the merchant kings will try to corner markets. You're not going to make a quick buck selling common swords in your EK but, you might gain favor if you sell them in a CW, which translates to exposure for your EK where you sell high end swords. It's all about careful research and execution of your business plan.

Edited by IdeaMatrix
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awesome thread, and it brings up some valid concerns... but that's not how crafting skills work (so far) in Crowfall!

 

To be more specific, "Blacksmithing" is a skill, not "Swordsmithing."  Blacksmithing covers creating all weapons and some armors, and is the only specific crafting tree that has been released to pre-Alpha.  We won't have to worry about overspecialization in crafting, because it's all very general.  Additionally, there is a "Crafting Basics" which is a strictly generalized crafting tree that allows you to "specialize" in Engineering, Design, Artistry, and Business.  The first three are groupings of skills; Engineering includes Blacksmithing, Stonemasonry, and Woodworking- each of those have their own skill tree.  What that means is if you are a dedicated Blacksmith, you will also have a good foundation in Stonemasonry and Woodworking *by default* once you start going down the Crafting Basics (which from my take will almost be required due to the Business branch, which is how you unlock Vendor Thralls)

 

TL;DR:  ACE has got us covered, crafters will have plenty of flexibility.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

VIP won't matter for crafting, unless they change things up.  For now the only crafting that can be done is on the general skills list, not any of the archetypes.  VIP currently only allows for 3 combat archetypes to be trained at a time, while we can still only train 1 general skill at a time.

Why do I remember something about some crafting skills on the archetype level ? I'm not sure, I probably mixed it with a forum's topic (does it rings a bell for anyone ?) and Crowfall's current information are so spread i can't find anything x). 

 

Sure, at launch crafting will be very limited and many will be generalists, but as players master skills in different craft niches, they will often branch out into other areas, including mastering undermanned craft niches. This is another place where good discipline and planning should serve guilds well.

Ok so we start as generalists ? Sad, I was kind of hoping to directly choose a line of trade but hey, if that is what it takes to keep the game alive...

 

To be more specific, "Blacksmithing" is a skill, not "Swordsmithing."  Blacksmithing covers creating all weapons and some armors, and is the only specific crafting tree that has been released to pre-Alpha.  We won't have to worry about overspecialization in crafting, because it's all very general.  Additionally, there is a "Crafting Basics" which is a strictly generalized crafting tree that allows you to "specialize" in Engineering, Design, Artistry, and Business.  The first three are groupings of skills; Engineering includes Blacksmithing, Stonemasonry, and Woodworking- each of those have their own skill tree.  What that means is if you are a dedicated Blacksmith, you will also have a good foundation in Stonemasonry and Woodworking *by default* once you start going down the Crafting Basics (which from my take will almost be required due to the Business branch, which is how you unlock Vendor Thralls).

Thanks for the information, I had forgotten that part.  

 

A question then. As I was watching the old ACE Q&A they mentionned that you gain skills passively BUT also actively (they called it proefficiency). Has there been more info on that subject ? On how it affects crafting ? Maybe what Ideamatrix was talking about (the crafting point system) ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd like to go straight to the root of it.
Most MMOs have only persistent worlds, while Crowfall focus is on "dying worlds".

On campaigns with low/none import crafting will be crucial, and having skilled crafters on your side or not may mark the difference on the outcome.
On EK... yeah, there could be too many crafters for so many players.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There hasn't been any added information about gaining skills actively, I'm hoping that they'll forget about it entirely and keep the system entirely passive.

 

It will be easy to be a generalist, hopefully the rewards for specializing will be worth the time invested!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pretty sure it's going to be full passive training. Hopefully the exclusivity of only 1 general skill training slot will prevent most pvp focused players from flooding the market. I think the draw of min/maxing will prevent most people from dabbling in crafting skills, especially with the long training times. I just wish there was an incentive for crafting focused players to get VIP tokens besides trading them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pretty sure it's going to be full passive training. Hopefully the exclusivity of only 1 general skill training slot will prevent most pvp focused players from flooding the market. I think the draw of min/maxing will prevent most people from dabbling in crafting skills, especially with the long training times. I just wish there was an incentive for crafting focused players to get VIP tokens besides trading them.

 

 

I plan to use my VIP tokens to maintain a high level of training in different Vessels to compensate for my lack of passive combat skills.  I'm also torn as to which profession to go for (first), and how far to go in to Crafting Basics.  Of course, it may all get thrown out the window when we see Stonemasonry enter the game!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm also torn as to which profession to go for (first), and how far to go in to Crafting Basics.  Of course, it may all get thrown out the window when we see Stonemasonry enter the game!

With the passive training of basic crafting skills, you'll have time to think about it and I hope we get early player stats from ACE or amateurs. Something like :

- how many players

- what role (fight/craft/explore)

- if crafter, 3 prefered specializations

Maybe like the survey we got at one point (determining the CF player population) from those graduates ?

In EVE they've got a big database of player stats (and i guess it's the same for other MMOs), and it would be awesome if we get the same thing quickly for CF.

That way you can make an informed decision and try not to ruin your crow.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I plan on tearing through the data when it becomes available but, I'm probably not going to share it lol. I'm not so sure that starting with crafting basics will be the right thing to do. You get some recipes in the specializations and you can cover harvesting with disciplines if you can manage to find or trade for them. I think it will be important to master professions though. The stats that you get from master crafter are very efficient as long as you plan of being a full crafter. I'm intrigued by the concept of the Leadership tree though. It's seems like a player with mass buffs to combat and crafting skills would be extremely valuable to a guild.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I plan on tearing through the data when it becomes available but, I'm probably not going to share it lol.

Not only for crafters, all players will have to. Too bad you won't share x) !

I've never tried to optimize a character since i'm not a big MMO player, but I think CF may be the right one so I'll probably spend 2 to 3 days digging into the data to prepare my leveling.

 

I'm intrigued by the concept of the Leadership tree though. It's seems like a player with mass buffs to combat and crafting skills would be extremely valuable to a guild.

Clearly one of the most important things imo. Every army will need several to act as captains, since I believe it's probably a proximity based buff.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You seem to be missing the big picture.. that some people.. alot of people love crafting..  Dare I say.... live for crafting.. myself included.

 

all they have to do is make crafting close to SWG and crafters will flock here. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...