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Ziz

Who likes the combat, why?

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The best I have is about 80 ping and I am able to perfectly evade enemy attacks (c ability). Minimum skills is also interesting, but not in a way that you have to remember various trees to do a right combo. And you also need to remember that keyboard which is for that... No, it is not good combo system. I wouldn't mind if we have all the skills on the skill bar and just one or two channels into something reasonable. I like Knights mana restoring spell or Myrmidons charge / pull after net.

 

I think speed should stay similar at that point, you can avoid enemy attacks. But it should not look like Champion is affected by zero gravity spell, while he is casting his C ability. I would also imagine his jump a bit faster and ye, other various tweaks.

 

I don't know much about ranged classes gameplay except from Marketing Dragons showes. If we push game more to medieval-fantasy like, then projectiles could be faster, but I would like to see them coming. Ranger has actually advantage of hard-to-see projectiles.

 

It's pre-alpha, so stay tuned! 


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However, from what I have played the combat style is playable but it is let down by poor performance (very low frame rate). The combo system and minimal hot key bar I like although there should be more options in the combo tree.

 

I also like how the non tabbed action combat works but as a mainly ranged DPS player I feel sometimes the range of the attacks are too short. The hit box is about right but again with the poor performance it's difficult to judge.

 

Agree with this. There are aspects of combat that feel good but the performance makes it difficult to get an accurate feel for everything. I have been playing the Confessor and do find myself wondering what's the point sometimes, often because of the short base range and necessity of stacking sin to do real damage. I might just join the druid train, at least their LMB is hitscan I think.   

 

 

That being said,, I still dont like the zoomed in look of the camera. I don't need to see the freckles of my enemy, i need to see a decent portion of the battlefied. Maybe i just haven't adjusted my  camera settings  properly. Guild wars2 had a nice scaling and semi-panoramic view.

 

 

The FOV feels too zoomed in to me as well. Without knowing what the default FOV is, I would suggest ACE should include an adjustment slider in 5 degree increments up to a maximum of +20 from default. This would improve the illusion of movement speed, it would make reticle aiming feel nicer because enemies would seem to move slightly slower from left to right as they traverse the screen. It would give a greater sense of depth and distance at center.

 

Side note on FOV. I know some developers misinterpret how to apply FOV to their games. For example, originally Skyrim came with a default 60 degree FOV and it was TERRIBLE! You felt like your face was about to smash in to a wall when you were still 20 feet away. Likely what happens is developers consider the aspect ratio, average size, and typical viewing distance from the monitor. They then set a narrow FOV based on their calculations. This is the wrong way to do it. Everything on screen becomes the players reality. As you crop off natural 180 degree human FOV from the on screen image things begin to feel unnatural. This flip side is that as you compress a wider FOV in to a 16x9 aspect ratio the image becomes distorted. The ideal way would be to split the difference to minimize each problem which would put default anywhere from 90 - 110 depending on aspect ratio, seating distance, monitor size. This is why having some flexibility with an FOV slider is a welcomed option. Generally the closer you can get to a natural human FOV onscreen without too much artificial distortion of the image, the better everything begins to feel. 

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One year later, still using the "not finished" excuse. What's not finished is Eternal Kingdoms, siege, PvE, guild systems, crafting, vessels, the skill tree, etc.

 

However, here we are, one year later, and the combat is essentially the same plus a few more archetypes. Yet we're still having the same core issues with combat. Should have kept the toilet paper trees in order to let the art department focus on eternal kingdoms and let the rest of the team stay focused on combat.

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One year later, still using the "not finished" excuse. What's not finished is Eternal Kingdoms, siege, PvE, guild systems, crafting, vessels, the skill tree, etc.

 

However, here we are, one year later, and the combat is essentially the same plus a few more archetypes. Yet we're still having the same core issues with combat. Should have kept the toilet paper trees in order to let the art department focus on eternal kingdoms and let the rest of the team stay focused on combat.

 

We've gone backwards a bit. Remember when LMB attacks (pre-client controller) didn't rely on the reticle? That's a thing again.

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Pre-alpha, when as far as we know '' soft launch'' is about to happen in what ? 4-5 months ?

That excuse is less and less convincing every day.

 

Tbh what's problematic about combat from my perspective is not the fact it's still bonkers, since they can improve.

Problem is : their vision of it seems to be bonkers. 3/4 of powers rooted in action type gameplay ?

Slow animations + slow paced combat + roots is exactly at OPPOSITE side of spectrum.

And yet they are diving head in as this was best ever.... that's whats worrying.

Improving bad design won't ever bring good results. You need to change design or be ready to get crappy combat at the end.

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Pre-alpha, when as far as we know '' soft launch'' is about to happen in what ? 4-5 months ?

That excuse is less and less convincing every day.

 

Tbh what's problematic about combat from my perspective is not the fact it's still bonkers, since they can improve.

Problem is : their vision of it seems to be bonkers. 3/4 of powers rooted in action type gameplay ?

Slow animations + slow paced combat + roots is exactly at OPPOSITE side of spectrum.

And yet they are diving head in as this was best ever.... that's whats worrying.

Improving bad design won't ever bring good results. You need to change design or be ready to get crappy combat at the end.

 

The OP wanted positive opinions on combat  (i.e. what you liked about combat .... not what you don't.) 


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Count_Dirkoff, as much as what the OP wanted was a positive opinion... all I have seen here is people struggling to come up with something positive to say. 

 

I have felt that despite the previous few announcements regarding delaying the game and "re-emphasizing" combat, what we've actually seen hasn't quite mirrored this. We've been told that as bug fixes come online and performance improves and root-motion makes its entrance that combat will get better. Yet all of these things have to some degree happened and this thread is the best most positive objective comments I've seen to date. That's a pretty dreary commentary on the state of combat and of Crowfall's future if you ask me.

 

I don't even need to give my own opinion on the system, the positive crowd did more damage then I could have.

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The OP wanted positive opinions on combat  (i.e. what you liked about combat .... not what you don't.) 

It is true, off topic happens sometimes. But I think he wanted to find out whether anyone likes this combat or all of us share similar opinion. 

 

All in all, negative opinion is better sometimes. Unlike positive opinion, negative one will tell you what you should avoid / change. Positive may only motivate you, so you carry on doing things same way and improve at it. Improving at bad things won't make you better. Avoiding / changing them will.


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I wanted to hear from people that LIKE the combat because it seems like all I've seen is people disliking it.

 

IF there was a large group of people that liked combat I could understand the devs working on their vision, but when almost every person/post dislikes combat for the past YEAR.. I cant believe they are sticking with this direction.

 

Best case scenario is a SLOW, pruned down version of Tera combat but when you take away what makes Tera combat fun (the speed of action combat & combos) then whats left isnt looking good.

Edited by Ziz

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I wanted to hear from people that LIKE the combat because it seems like all I've seen is people disliking it...

 

IF there was a large group of people that liked combat I could understand the devs working on their vision, but when almost every person/post dislikes combat for the past YEAR.. I cant believe they are sticking with this direction.

Isn't there a difference though between the concept vision of the combat system and the current state of the combat system?

 

Look i get it we're not allowed to say "its alpha" or "its not finished yet" for some reason despite that being an obvious fact and despite that neither statement means the system is currently good enough. Point is for the past year if one is still here, giving feedback and testing and supporting the game, then stands to reason even if don't want to admit it, that most here still believe in the vision and still believe ACE can get there.

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I wanted to hear from people that LIKE the combat because it seems like all I've seen is people disliking it...

 

IF there was a large group of people that liked combat I could understand the devs working on their vision, but when almost every person/post dislikes combat for the past YEAR.. I cant believe they are sticking with this direction.

So it is exactly like I said - find out whether we all agree that they should improve. From my experience, the smaller is the group of developers, more they care about community.

 

I think ACE will improve if they find out that they do it not the way players want it. But unfortunately, they are under pressure as they already delayed planned beta / launch once and reworking combat completely would probably even worse their time delay.

 

For me, it is better to wait one more moment. They wrote somewhere in the FAQ that skills of archetypes may change / be completely removed. It's probably because they have some changes in the plan.


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Isn't there a difference though between the concept vision of the combat system and the current state of the combat system?

 

Look i get it we're not allowed to say "its alpha" or "its not finished yet" for some reason despite that being an obvious fact and despite that neither statement means the system is currently good enough. Point is for the past year if one is still here, giving feedback and testing and supporting the game, then stands to reason even if don't want to admit it, that most here still believe in the vision and still believe ACE can get there.

 

I think the Myrmidon is basically what combat will look like when its "finished" minus bugs and performance issues. wasd lmb attacks, no strafing in combat, animations locks.

 

It is much better than a year ago, and some people might like it. But the only time I've seen the forums really excited about a change and the way combat was heading was when they added strafing and free movement with LMB.


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Things can always be better. I think we will see improvement in some areas. I don't know how far along they will be before soft or retail launch but these are the things I like.

 

1) Hit detection works well. I've never felt like I should have hit someone but the game said I missed.

2) Grouping up with people you knowand comunicate with is very important. I love knowin our teams timings and pulling of skills that wipe another party or coordinated movement that keeps us all alive and fighting larger numbers of uncoordinated people.

3)The animations in general are well done and feel like they have weight

4) We have some cool toys to play with that I haven't seen in other games. Dizzy, blind, orbs, and all the physics we can place on each other.

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I think ACE will improve if they find out that they do it not the way players want it. But unfortunately, they are under pressure as they already delayed planned beta / launch once and reworking combat completely would probably even worse their time delay.

 

I don't think "reworking combat completely" is necessary. 

 

The combo system is OK, but needs tweaking and making more flexible - not re-designed.

 

I think there is a general consensus that people do not like all aspects of 'root motion' this can be improved and removed in some instances.

 

And the biggest issue is the client frame rate and overall performance.

 

There are lots of other tweaks and adjustments to be made to combat but this is not 'reworking combat completely'.


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I think one of the problems is that early on you had people like me with real pvp experience telling ACE how they should make their combat, but then you had a bunch of yes men as well telling them they were doing a great job.  Then over time those yes men slowly caught on to what any real pvper would have known early on, and now they are starting to see the problems with the combat long term. 


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I don't think "reworking combat completely" is necessary. 

 

The combo system is OK, but needs tweaking and making more flexible - not re-designed.

 

I think there is a general consensus that people do not like all aspects of 'root motion' this can be improved and removed in some instances.

 

And the biggest issue is the client frame rate and overall performance.

 

There are lots of other tweaks and adjustments to be made to combat but this is not 'reworking combat completely'.

You're right that it is not 'completely'. But it would slow them a lot anyway.

Edited by ChosenOfCastle

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Looking back, I feel that it took ACE like 1 month to give Melee Archetypes strafing and free movement on LMB, after they had the tech for it. And they probably still have those animations. So, even if the root motion flops hard, I believe it'd take a relatively short time to go back to a free movement combat system. So I'm in the belief that ACE has some wiggle room to try some ideas with their combat system.

 

Plus, there has never been a game that never missed its deadline. In fact, the games that probably never missed a deadline are ones that don't have/release them.

 

Just my 0.02¢.


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Lol come on guys. This is an unfair question because people like to complain more than be objective. That's being human. We are emotional creatures.

 

It doesn't matter what anyone says because it's all irrelevant until it's polished. Combat is 80% how it "feels" and 20% concept.

 

Think about how many games use tab targeting yet which one is your favorite? Most likely a well polished one. Something that gives us the type of feedback (visual/audio) that makes us feel engaged along with a highly responsive system.

 

No matter the concept until it "feels" great it isn't.

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