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Ziz

Who likes the combat, why?

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10 vs 50 was entirely plausible. This happened at launch when seasoned beta players were able to use superior builds, firehose healing, and game mechanics to win. 10 vs 100 was entirely plausible back then. Especially, when you fought roleplaying guilds.

 

This occurred once again about 6 months - 12 months when better players were able to have that same advantage. The process was again repeated when the Asian servers shut down and the Chinese came over. 10 vs 50 victories happened quite often until they got a better understanding of game mechanics, group composition, and pvp. Which is odd considering they played by themselves for a few years before they came over. What were they doing all that time if not PvP?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HZ8GCgYoa8

Edited by headlight

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One of those things where, if you didn't get to do it yourself you'll just have to trust us or decide we're lying. It definitely worked. Well. The SB devs just screwed up one very large issue - the illusion of permanence in a competitive player v. player, group combat game. AC has that issue dead solid solved.

 

Now here's hoping they don't custard up the underlying game.

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One of those things where, if you didn't get to do it yourself you'll just have to trust us or decide we're lying. It definitely worked. Well. The SB devs just screwed up one very large issue - the illusion of permanence in a competitive player v. player, group combat game. AC has that issue dead solid solved.

 

Now here's hoping they don't custard up the underlying game.

SB didn't have competitive player vs player.  It was hoping to.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I briefly played SB as DAoC was a lot more enjoyable at the time so never experienced much in the way of large battles, could you explain how this was possible?

 

Every once in a while I revisit old videos of games and each time I watch something for SB I laugh how people talk about it. The forumbane stuff makes a lot of sense considering what the game entailed.

 

The number of things that had to be wrong with the game and or the people playing for 10 vs 150 to be a thing speaks volumes. I assume some OP individual/group builds had something to do with it. How 150 people could click move themselves into a position for 10 to wipe them out baffles me.

 

Maybe that's where they are trying to go with this game? Mix of SB and DCUO combat?

 

It was very easy to make a garbage build in Shadowbane and at launch most people had no idea what they were doing. You had people who didn't know you needed INT to raise your skillcap, didn't know that your weapon skill was part of the chance to block formula so they would get their attacks blocked 95%+ of the time, wore stat gear instead of resist, didn't bother to buff everyone, and for months didn't even have access to trainers capable of teaching their high level abilities or raising their focus lines to high levels.

 

Beta guilds would roll up with spec groups of dwarf warriors sporting 65%+ damage resistance to most damage supported by priests and bards. A well built, geared and fully buffed r6 warrior could churn out 6-8x the damage of a crap build without buffs, and the health pool, damage resistance and healing output made them almost unkillable for the garbage builds newbs were running.

 

A lot of guilds bragged about winning fights like that, and then promptly fled the game when people started catching up.


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I'm wondering what people would think about a first person combat mode similar to ESO. Don't change the combat, just changing the perspective to be FPS ready. It would obviously help aiming for archers, and I think even knights could get a better grasp on what they are swinging at. I think right now the cloudiness of battle and just sheer craziness of being flung around with tons of effects and lag is what makes combat confusing.

Personally after seeing the unity FPS camera mode for walking around the Crowfall world I think it just fits. The world is beautiful and should be viewed from a first person perspective (if not VR which was planned, so I assume FPS mode was planned also anyways). I think if that was available it might give players a chance to see combat through a whole new lens without really having to change anything and truly see if it is actually good or bad.

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A lot of guilds bragged about winning fights like that, and then promptly fled the game when people started catching up.

 

That's what I assumed as there clearly is a problem either in game design or players if a group can take out x10-15 or whatever without much issue. Good for them for figuring it all out faster, but I wouldn't be overly boastful about it.

 

Been attempting to play Albion Online (Zzzzzz) and watching some streamers and it's pretty hilarious to see them gank someone 5v1 or some random undergeared individual 1v1 (aka they didn't know what was happening) and talk trash and then run into 7-10+ and run away or cry zerg!

 

I get it's win at all costs in some of these games, but at least have a tiny bit of  humility when it's clear what is happening.

 

Unfortunately I believe this is why structured "fair" PVP games (MOBA,FPS,RTS,etc) will continue to dominate and all these upcoming hardcore! projects won't have strong populations. Huge variance in gamers and the wolves like to run in packs for the easy slaughter.

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That's what I assumed as there clearly is a problem either in game design or players if a group can take out x10-15 or whatever without much issue. Good for them for figuring it all out faster, but I wouldn't be overly boastful about it.

 

Been attempting to play Albion Online (Zzzzzz) and watching some streamers and it's pretty hilarious to see them gank someone 5v1 or some random undergeared individual 1v1 (aka they didn't know what was happening) and talk trash and then run into 7-10+ and run away or cry zerg!

 

I get it's win at all costs in some of these games, but at least have a tiny bit of  humility when it's clear what is happening.

 

Unfortunately I believe this is why structured "fair" PVP games (MOBA,FPS,RTS,etc) will continue to dominate and all these upcoming hardcore! projects won't have strong populations. Huge variance in gamers and the wolves like to run in packs for the easy slaughter.

Actually in shadowbane's case people left because the game didn't actually function, it wasn't because anyone caught up, no one really caught up.  If anything people just got more and more dominant, as highlighted by JTC as one of the problems with shadowbane, uncle bob and all.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Actually in shadowbane's case people left because the game didn't actually function, it wasn't because anyone caught up, no one really caught up.  If anything people just got more and more dominant, as highlighted by JTC as one of the problems with shadowbane, uncle bob and all.

 

10 vs 150 being possible in a click to move game seems proof of it not functioning properly and or being more complicated than what the average bear could handle. Hence why I don't get the bragging, but to each their own.

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10 vs 150 being possible in a click to move game seems proof of it not functioning properly and or being more complicated than what the average bear could handle. Hence why I don't get the bragging, but to each their own.

 

It came down to builds, group composition (bards, priests, etc), target calling via voice comms, the right disciplines, siege knowledge, city building, actual discipline, and gear. I don't ever see anyone in crowfall taking 10 and beating 50 just because it's action combat and you start out with a character that isn't pure crap and won't get worse as you level and put points in the wrong place.

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10 vs 150 being possible in a click to move game seems proof of it not functioning properly and or being more complicated than what the average bear could handle. Hence why I don't get the bragging, but to each their own.

Why would that be proof of it not functioning?  If anything it is good if 10 top players can destroy 150 not top players.

 

Anyway don't let people mislead you about what shadowbane was.  It was a game that sold very well relative to the era at launch and then died out very quickly.  No one really caught up, that wasn't why most players left, most players left because the game crashed all of the time and the security of the game service was hacked so people felt unsafe.  People that played the game after most of the players left would like to tell themselves that the reason the best players left is because they "caught up" but they either weren't around or simply don't want to admit that the reason shadowbane lost most of its players is completely unrelated to the skill of any players. 

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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SB didn't have competitive player vs player.  It was hoping to.

Are you talking about counter strike? SB wasn't an arena game, nor was it aiming to be. Open world pvp IS quite competitive, but not in the ultra wannabe-esports sort of way. Crowfall isn't aiming for that either.

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Are you talking about counter strike? SB wasn't an arena game, nor was it aiming to be. Open world pvp IS quite competitive, but not in the ultra wannabe-esports sort of way. Crowfall isn't aiming for that either.

Competitive requires lots of people being able to compete, in SB the game was so easy and uncle bob reigned supreme, only a handful of people experienced the success, and it was nearly impossible to lose once you did. 

 

On top of that the skill-ceiling was so low that anyone that actually came from competitive gaming background mastered the game in a matter of days.  After that it was just a snoozefest.  You have to understand that the gap in player skill in all facets, mechanical and tactical, between competitive players and your run of the mill mmorpg player back in 2003 was about the largest it ever could have been. 

 

No one is expecting Crowfall to be an esport, but it needs to have a high enough skill-ceiling to where it isn't mastered and the skill-ceiling isn't reached within days. 

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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SB didn't have competitive player vs player.  It was hoping to.

 

I`m curious did u back the game Crowfall, VN?

Because what you are looking for might not be in Crowfall - the combat system is less designed around 1v1 combat with the current Archtype powers. It`s possible to fight 1v1, but some of the powers are designed in group and small scale combat as well with archtype powers that will affect more than one player.

 

It was indeed possible to fight 1vs1 in Shadowbane with some small scale PvP builds a.k.a Rogue Assassins, Nightstalkers, some scout/Thief UA builds. So maybe it was not that easy to master as you claim to be, VN.   

 

Shadowbane had a complicated combat system.

That`s why I mention in another topic about the Nightsalkers from SB - I really doubt that many players used that power on the Nightstalker `litany of caution`, because I focused my character at the time to build powers directly towards large scale combat with AEO power debuffs which was necessary with priests which was mainly a healing class in that game. It was also fine build vs. glass cannons and heavy dps groups in the old days due to high defense build.  

You went visible debuffed, and went into stealth mode, and pray it was not a scout nearby to reveal your stealth or armor debuffed you so a dps caster could hit your high defense build character.

It`s just one brief example how complicated SB combat was back in the days including a specific power build on a Nightstalker - and it was hard for new players to learn and get into the game comptiviely vs.other solid PvP centric guilds in the past. The amount of griefing and low level group wipes

that was possible in Shadowbane scared so many new players away so they never master anything related to that game.  A good (r4-r5) SB toon could easy take out a r7 end game toon with resource gear for sure if it was build properly and focused on small scale pvp. 

 

Litany of Caution

Debuffdefaoe_cam.png "Area of Effect Melee and Power Damage Debuff"

Requires Exorcism Skill (66), Requires Litany of Discretion Power (14)

Granted: Level 28

 

Another dicussion which is interesting concerning combat in my opinion - is`t healthy for the overall population to create a combat system which is too complicated for `new`players to get into and master properly without gimping your character to oblivion before it even hit the end game skill progression?

Have u thought about that, Todd & Blair?  :)

 

Because, FPS combat in BF1 is really straightforward an easy to master after u have learned your weapon properly and the recoil to aim better. 

Edited by mythx

MQfHl7c.png

Crowfall Game Client: https://www.crowfall.com/en/client/

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Why would that be proof of it not functioning?  If anything it is good if 10 top players can destroy 150 not top players.

 

Anyway don't let people mislead you about what shadowbane was.  It was a game that sold very well relative to the era at launch and then died out very quickly.  No one really caught up, that wasn't why most players left, most players left because the game crashed all of the time and the security of the game service was hacked so people felt unsafe.  People that played the game after most of the players left would like to tell themselves that the reason the best players left is because they "caught up" but they either weren't around or simply don't want to admit that the reason shadowbane lost most of its players is completely unrelated to the skill of any players. 

 

It is good if you are one of those 10 players, but clearly not for the majority and as you've pointed out, leads to issues with those gaining power, keeping it. Seems obvious that there were multiple issues with the game, from balance to technical to simply how well those playing even understood it at the start.

 

No clue how long the beta or your experience lasted with it, but the game did exist for several years and it seems to have a decent following the enjoyed it. After playing AC/AO/EQ/DAoC, the mechanics and tech issues were a big turn off for me with SB, but we all like what we like.

 

I don't know of many (Any?) "competitive" games that allow for 10v150 to be a viable design. MOBA/FPS/RTS/MMO Arenas etc all focus on small scale and ranked/balanced play as much as possible. OW MMO PVP simply isn't fair and never will be, which is why it won't ever fall into the same "competitive" bracket as eSport games. However unfair such a game might be and however skilled some folks might be, at some point the game design is at fault if such disparities exist to the extent that's been suggested SB had.

 

If you and yours did well during beta, good job, but from my beta experiences, it is almost never a representation of the actual game due to the game itself not being finished or there being enough players in number or knowledge. Then again I don't know what differences beta/launch SB had.

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Competitive requires lots of people being able to compete, in SB the game was so easy and uncle bob reigned supreme, only a handful of people experienced the success, and it was nearly impossible to lose once you did. 

 

On top of that the skill-ceiling was so low that anyone that actually came from competitive gaming background mastered the game in a matter of days.  After that it was just a snoozefest.  You have to understand that the gap in player skill in all facets, mechanical and tactical, between competitive players and your run of the mill mmorpg player back in 2003 was about the largest it ever could have been. 

 

No one is expecting Crowfall to be an esport, but it needs to have a high enough skill-ceiling to where it isn't mastered and the skill-ceiling isn't reached within days. 

 

Who were these "competitive players" you speak of? You think CS and SC pros decided to jump over to SB and dominate? SB had plenty of "home grown" competitive players/guilds, many of which came from games like UO, AC and DAOC. Why does CF need to have a high enough skill ceiling that it won't be mastered? Why does CF need to attract  players from these "competitive" games when it's not really aiming to be one itself.

 

You make a lot of assertions with no reasoning or context as to why the game needs to be a certain way. In your mind "it just does".

 

Crowfall doesn't need an abnormally high skill ceiling to attract the MMO crowd, it just needs to be GOOD. I know that's subjective, but a "high skill ceiling" (whatever this means) doesn't necessarily need to be an attribute of a "good" game.

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Who were these "competitive players" you speak of? You think CS and SC pros decided to jump over to SB and dominate? SB had plenty of "home grown" competitive players/guilds, many of which came from games like UO, AC and DAOC. Why does CF need to have a high enough skill ceiling that it won't be mastered? Why does CF need to attract  players from these "competitive" games when it's not really aiming to be one itself.

 

You make a lot of assertions with no reasoning or context as to why the game needs to be a certain way. In your mind "it just does".

 

Crowfall doesn't need an abnormally high skill ceiling to attract the MMO crowd, it just needs to be GOOD. I know that's subjective, but a "high skill ceiling" (whatever this means) doesn't necessarily need to be an attribute of a "good" game.

 

For a game to be any good and to succeed, VN has to play it. I'm afraid by the time it rolls out that it won't meet his standards and we'll never get to know his true identity, the mystery will remain  :rolleyes:

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I`m curious did u back the game Crowfall, VN?

 

I dunno did I?

 

Because what you are looking for might not be in Crowfall - the combat system is less designed around 1v1 combat with the current Archtype powers. It`s possible to fight 1v1, but some of the powers are designed in group and small scale combat as well with archtype powers that will affect more than one player.

 

Pretty sure you don't seem to know what I am looking for. 

 

It was indeed possible to fight 1vs1 in Shadowbane with some small scale PvP builds a.k.a Rogue Assassins, Nightstalkers, some scout/Thief UA builds. So maybe it was not that easy to master as you claim to be, VN.   

 

One man's challenge is another man's snoozefest. 

 

Shadowbane had a complicated combat system.

That`s why I mention in another topic about the Nightsalkers from SB - I really doubt that many players used that power on the Nightstalker `litany of caution`, because I focused my character at the time to build powers directly towards large scale combat with AEO power debuffs which was necessary with priests which was mainly a healing class in that game. It was also fine build vs. glass cannons and heavy dps groups in the old days due to high defense build.  

You went visible debuffed, and went into stealth mode, and pray it was not a scout nearby to reveal your stealth or armor debuffed you so a dps caster could hit your high defense build character.

It`s just one brief example how complicated SB combat was back in the days including a specific power build on a Nightstalker - and it was hard for new players to learn and get into the game comptiviely vs.other solid PvP centric guilds in the past. The amount of griefing and low level group wipes

that was possible in Shadowbane scared so many new players away so they never master anything related to that game.  A good (r4-r5) SB toon could easy take out a r7 end game toon with resource gear for sure if it was build properly and focused on small scale pvp. 

 

Litany of Caution

Debuffdefaoe_cam.png "Area of Effect Melee and Power Damage Debuff"

Requires Exorcism Skill (66), Requires Litany of Discretion Power (14)

Granted: Level 28

 

Another dicussion which is interesting concerning combat in my opinion - is`t healthy for the overall population to create a combat system which is too complicated for `new`players to get into and master properly without gimping your character to oblivion before it even hit the end game skill progression?

Have u thought about that, Todd & Blair?  :)

 

Because, FPS combat in BF1 is really straightforward an easy to master after u have learned your weapon properly and the recoil to aim better. 

 

Again, complexity and challenge are relative. 

 

 

It is good if you are one of those 10 players, but clearly not for the majority and as you've pointed out, leads to issues with those gaining power, keeping it. Seems obvious that there were multiple issues with the game, from balance to technical to simply how well those playing even understood it at the start.

 

Yes it is good if you are one of the best players and is not supposed to be as good if you are not one of the best players, this is how pvp games are supposed to work. 

 

No clue how long the beta or your experience lasted with it, but the game did exist for several years and it seems to have a decent following the enjoyed it. After playing AC/AO/EQ/DAoC, the mechanics and tech issues were a big turn off for me with SB, but we all like what we like.

 

Nope, shadowbane pretty much lost most of its players after the first few months.   "Decent" is relative here, the people that truly associate themselves as primarily shadowbane players is actually quite small. 

 

I don't know of many (Any?) "competitive" games that allow for 10v150 to be a viable design. MOBA/FPS/RTS/MMO Arenas etc all focus on small scale and ranked/balanced play as much as possible. OW MMO PVP simply isn't fair and never will be, which is why it won't ever fall into the same "competitive" bracket as eSport games. However unfair such a game might be and however skilled some folks might be, at some point the game design is at fault if such disparities exist to the extent that's been suggested SB had.

 

Yes OW isn't fair, which is why it is good when player skill can allow you to overcome great odds. 

 

If you and yours did well during beta, good job, but from my beta experiences, it is almost never a representation of the actual game due to the game itself not being finished or there being enough players in number or knowledge. Then again I don't know what differences beta/launch SB had.

 

Well in SB's case the game was more stable in beta and actually had less hacking and exploiting because the players were saving those secrets for launch.  The game lost most of its population shortly after launch.

 

 

Who were these "competitive players" you speak of? You think CS and SC pros decided to jump over to SB and dominate? SB had plenty of "home grown" competitive players/guilds, many of which came from games like UO, AC and DAOC. Why does CF need to have a high enough skill ceiling that it won't be mastered? Why does CF need to attract  players from these "competitive" games when it's not really aiming to be one itself.

 

Actually most of the people in my guild that played shadowbane came from competitive SC and Quake backgrounds.  CF needs a high enough skill ceiling so that it won't be mastered within days. 

 

CF needs to attract players from modern games.  Because there is a new standard these days, and if CF falls below that standard it simply  fails. 

 

You make a lot of assertions with no reasoning or context as to why the game needs to be a certain way. In your mind "it just does".

 

These reasonings are things people either have the experience to understand as a matter of fact, or they don't have the experience and it can't really be explained to them. 

 

Crowfall doesn't need an abnormally high skill ceiling to attract the MMO crowd, it just needs to be GOOD. I know that's subjective, but a "high skill ceiling" (whatever this means) doesn't necessarily need to be an attribute of a "good" game.

 

It needs a skill-ceiling at least in line with modern popular mmos.  AKA at the minimum it needs to be as good as WoW as far as skill is required, right now it falls way short of even that. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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These reasonings are things people either have the experience to understand as a matter of fact, or they don't have the experience and it can't really be explained to them.

 

I've been playing mmos for 15 years now, and never really thought to myself "this game needs to be extremely pretentious and convoluted for me to enjoy it". I like games that have high burden of knowledge, but I can equally enjoy more "simplistic" games too. This is coming from someone who played GW1 a game with over 1000 abilities and a constantly evolving/changing meta at a respectable level.

 

 

It needs a skill-ceiling at least in line with modern popular mmos.  AKA at the minimum it needs to be as good as WoW as far as skill is required, right now it falls way short of even that.

 

The burden of knowledge in WoW is high due to item/ability bloat. I assume this is what you're associating with "skill". While I agree that the BoK could be higher in CF, I believe the developers will keep the game relatively "simplistic" in this regard to increase accessibility. 

 

Fixing combat in CF isn't an unsolvable chinese finger puzzle. All they need to do is:

  1. fix combos so they're not slow, clunky and nonsensical.
  2. Fix the performance so don't warp around.
  3. Remove root motion on LMB, and fix it on the abilities.

I think the "speed" of combat is fine. Even combat in DFO wasn't all that fast.

Edited by helix

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@VIKINGNAIL

 

CF needs to attract players from modern games.  Because there is a new standard these days, and if CF falls below that standard it simply  fails. 

 

What standard is that?

Edited by Bramble

“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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Yes it is good if you are one of the best players and is not supposed to be as good if you are not one of the best players, this is how pvp games are supposed to work. 

 

Nope, shadowbane pretty much lost most of its players after the first few months.   "Decent" is relative here, the people that truly associate themselves as primarily shadowbane players is actually quite small. 

 

Yes OW isn't fair, which is why it is good when player skill can allow you to overcome great odds. 

 

CF needs a high enough skill ceiling so that it won't be mastered within days. 

 

It needs a skill-ceiling at least in line with modern popular mmos.  AKA at the minimum it needs to be as good as WoW as far as skill is required, right now it falls way short of even that. 

 

It might be good for a tiny majority if things are so out of whack that such things are possible, but clearly it doesn't work or at least not in any game that I know of. I've never read the "How PVP should work" guide, but I assume games are supposed to be enjoyable by many in some way and not just the top 0.1%.

 

The uphill struggle can have enjoyment to a point but there has to be a glimmer of hope and a chance to overcome. 10 vs 150 seems to go against that.

 

This is why rankings exist in actual competitive formats. Play on your level vs those of a similar.

 

This is also why zerging exists in most games that allow for it. As most mmos are built around smaller scale balance, numbers are used to win where skill can not. Again why mmos typically have arenas and small formats to allow for small scale to shine in some way.

 

SB was never overly popular and if this chart is semi accurate, it looks like it took a nice hit after launch but actually went back up after whatever happened. It did decline once again and like almost every game took the the final hit when WoW's beta/launch happened. Going from 50k to 30 back to 40 isn't exactly terrible and I wouldn't call that "most."

 

http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-3.png

 

Skill will always allow players to overcome odds, that should be a given. However, there is usually a point where an individual or smaller group can only do so much vs the odds, at least in mmorpgs. Mechanical and tactical options eventually hit a wall.

 

While we really don't know the whole picture, I don't know how someone would "master" CF in days with what is known.

 

Considering progression is time based, one can't instantly have the most OP build at creation with a few clicks or grind for the best or whatever it typically takes.

 

Being able to use WASD, 1-0 keys and aim might be easier to master, but that's just part of it.

 

If the overall goal is to win a campaign which likely will be time based as well, there is no skip to the victory mode. All the non-combat related activities are part of this as well.

 

I do agree that they need to at least make it be on par if not more so than games out there if they are going to associate themselves with EVE/GOT and call it a Throne War Sim. There needs to be some depth and strategy. But simply who can click 12345 the fastest or aim the best after slapping on the right boots and picking the best disciplines shouldn't be where it stops.

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