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Lordtweedz

My greatest fear!

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I'll give the devs credit, and acknowledge that the Myno feels pretty good compared to some of the other characters, especially in regards to root motion. The biggest turn off during testing, at least for me, are the server issues, specifically as it relates to latency, frame rate drops, and odd camera behavior.

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You are right OP, animations and fluidity are core aspect in a game. Even if it has the best content. "Fail animations and the game will be a failure."

 

I used to work on many games, and I can tell you even in pre alpha, animation design wont change that much. Crowfall fights are clearly not going in the right direction.

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I honestly think that combat/animation of combat/fluidity of combat has literally been the biggest and hottest debate in dozens of forum topics all over the place.

 

That is why it is literally ACE's biggest focus. Not at one single point have they said they are happy with it. I think the issue is, people are not use to being exposed to pre-alpha.

 

If you have been in dozens of pre-alpha you know almost everything is up for change in some way or form.

 

I am not happy with combat. I am not worried about Crowfall combat.

 

Why? Because they have not said "this is the combat we envisioned, it is fun and enjoyable". To me, until they start hinting at that and the combat still sucks, im not worried at all.

 

 

You are right OP, animations and fluidity are core aspect in a game. Even if it has the best content. "Fail animations and the game will be a failure."

 

I used to work on many games, and I can tell you even in pre alpha, animation design wont change that much. Crowfall fights are clearly not going in the right direction.

 
That is the complete opposite of my experiences in alphas and pre-alphas. 
 
 

I'll give the devs credit, and acknowledge that the Myno feels pretty good compared to some of the other characters, especially in regards to root motion. The biggest turn off during testing, at least for me, are the server issues, specifically as it relates to latency, frame rate drops, and odd camera behavior.

 
I agree. I run a pretty high end machine. The graphics is dated but it performs extremely close to a 1080 in bench marks (295x2).(But i also run everything on 4k, or lower but in windowed mode on my 4k monitor) And i still sometimes experience some of these weird issues. But until only recently they started focusing on it alot more. Their last video showing over 200 'characters' on the screen running around keeping up with 30 fps on a laptop graphics card looked pretty good. I mean this was them JUST starting on increasing efficiency and trying things.
Edited by Vectious

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Why? Because they have not said "this is the combat we envisioned, it is fun and enjoyable". To me, until they start hinting at that and the combat still sucks, im not worried at all.

 

They might not have said it, but they are the ones creating and releasing builds quite a time after the initial public access.

 

The overall gameplay and recent archetypes aren't that much different than the initial system. Performance has increased a decent amount, but mechanics seem fairly similar with only minor changes here and there. Looking at feedback, not nearly enough has changed.

 

For being their #1 focus, regardless of "pre-alpha" tag, I'd assume we'd see more changes/progress if they actually wanted or are able to create what many have been hoping for. Acknowledging the issues is one thing, doing something about it is something else.

 

It's their time/money, but at some point they have to produce something people want and enjoy playing.

 

The current build doesn't seem to match what they envisioned looking at the FAQ and dev comments, but a vision doesn't always end up in or as the final product.

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So, i think most of us can agree, that Crowfall got a lot of stuff going in the right direction.

One of the things that are most important for me in games, may that be MMorpgs, Strategy games or whatever.

Is that feeling of fluent motions, animations and a fast paced combat system. That just works, and just feels right. The games that really did that well for me, was GW2, Wow, Starcraft2, LoL ( yea i know X.x ) and a few others.

Point is that im a bit afraid, that Crowfalls animations/combat system will not get me that feeling. Since i am not that impressed with what i've seen so far, i know it's still Alpha, and most games dosn't even show how they look this early... but still...

 

What do you guys think?

Am i worrying without a course ?

 

 

-Tweedz

 

Maybe if we ask the same question differently, perhaps we might get a "different" answer from ACE?  That wasn't meant to be snarky, but this question, along with the assertions of importance, fluid combat, etc., have been belabored before.  A lot.  Almost verbatim in some cases.  These concepts and their importance to us aren't a secret we've been keeping from ACE.

 

So perhaps the questions about this should be somewhat different, to elicit a different in-development response if you aren't happy with the current suite of answers from ACE.

 

At the highest level, taking a wild guess mind you, if we assume everyone agrees with the goals for combat overall (not every single detail is going to match what each of us individually want - I said overall), both us and ACE,

 

then

 

We went into Alpha testing and didn't see the level of refinement the End Goal idea is to represent.  Combat wasn't finished, yes indeed you have that right.

 

then

 

I would assume this reflects nothing more than the progressive, iterative nature of development  If I was a tester I would categorize aspects of combat I'm dissatisfied with.  This list would act as my lens, as a tester, for observation of progression towards the goal, testing session by testing session.

 

then

 

Assuming The Goal hasn't changed between ACE and us overall, one could also assume what's causing the gap in perception on our part isn't a deviation in vision and goal, but one of TIMING AND SCHEDULE.  There's a huge difference there.  (because we don't see it yet F.U.D mortars go off).

 

Simply repeating the same worry acts as a F.U.D generator, fomenting the first issue just mentioned: 1) The fear there has been a deviation in vision to material degree between "our" vision for combat and ACE's  (again, nothing is going to 100% match everyone's personal desires 100% - be realistic).  When it may be a case of 2) Timing and Schedule.  

 

If that rational makes any sense, it may suggest asking questions at a more granular level:  Vision - our desires vs their Decisions and how closely do the two match?, Suite of combat mechanics being massaged per their Decision, projected time to code each to test-ready, our testing schedules that follow up, what are the infrastructure issues causing challenges (e.g. performance)?

Edited by Bramble

“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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So, i think most of us can agree, that Crowfall got a lot of stuff going in the right direction.

One of the things that are most important for me in games, may that be MMorpgs, Strategy games or whatever.

Is that feeling of fluent motions, animations and a fast paced combat system. That just works, and just feels right. The games that really did that well for me, was GW2, Wow, Starcraft2, LoL ( yea i know X.x ) and a few others.

Point is that im a bit afraid, that Crowfalls animations/combat system will not get me that feeling. Since i am not that impressed with what i've seen so far, i know it's still Alpha, and most games dosn't even show how they look this early... but still...

 

What do you guys think?

Am i worrying without a course ?

 

 

-Tweedz

It is in the interest of developers to do it correctly. I think it could be ok.


Mercenary guild is recruiting. Send me a message if you are interested.

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I was worried about combat until I played the Myrmidon. The Myrmidon was designed around the root motion system and it shows. I'm sure they'll go back to the older archetypes and update some of their clunkier abilities.

 

The only concern I have regarding combat now is server and client performance (which usually doesn't come until later). Crowfall's action combat is way less lag tolerant than a hotkey based MMO would be and it really exacerbates the issue.

Edited by Zybak

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I was worried about combat until I played the Myrmidon. The Myrmidon was designed around the root motion system and it shows. I'm sure they'll go back to the older archetypes and update some of their clunkier abilities.

 

The only concern I have regarding combat now is server and client performance (which usually doesn't come until later). Crowfall's action combat is way less lag tolerant than a hotkey based MMO would be and it really exacerbates the issue.

I agree.

 

But what people dont seem to understand is, what they show us on the test server is not all they got. That is only stuff they want to show us. I would hazard to guess its not even 20% of the combat testing results they have.


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I share a similar concern with the OP, in fact, it is the biggest reason I haven't been active since some of the first testing I tried. I know what I was playing was pre-alpha, but even in that early stage of the game, I am not sure they can make enough of an improvement in the flow and feel of combat to draw me in.

 

Combat as it stands feels very clunky and slow... almost as if fighting in quicksand. 

 

Time will tell, and I keep following from afar. I am looking for fluid combat, and hope something I see draws me in soon. Crowfall has everything else going for it though, so I hope for the best on combat.

 

Until then, I'll keep lurking about... :ph34r:

Edited by Kell

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My greatest fear is that Crowfall runs out of money, then one of the big publishers comes in and ruins the game like they did with every other game and developer studio to this day. The gaming industry became the biggest piece of crap i have ever seen.

The gaming industry is on its new all time low point. Where you can consider poeple working in the gaming industry as worthless garbage, only interested in your money.

No money to the gaming industry ever again, let them die out!

Edited by Urahara

After EverQuest Next is gone, its Star Citizen for me.

 

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I think one of the big things people need to ponder on is that comparing Crowfall's combat to Game-X's combat is, in general, really hard - for one big reason; physics.

 

What I mean by this is that it's relatively easy to have super-fluid high-flash combat when your only concern is if two volumes connect at any point in time: bounding box A collides with bounding box B while key C is pressed is the sum-total of the procedure in most cases... Usually weapons don't even have volumes; you equip said weapon and said weapon may make the player's bounding box bigger to create a longer reach, but the simulation is still looking for the intersection of two volumes - period...

 

This is why most games don't have player physics, because it's orders of magnitude harder when you want to declare values on those volumes and test against those values in real time. But what you get for the extra work is a far more tactical simulation where player position, vector, inertia, and target leading are important, and the player's interactions with the world around them begin to have importance, but the cost is you have to limit combat speed to perform those calculations - which impacts twitch noscope headshots and the mad jumping about that many people call PvP.

 

So right now, in my humble opinion, we're seeing a lot of grumbling about the combat system because many people are expecting a game made almost entirely of high-speed ganking, like Game-X - when what I get out of the design doc for the game seems to indicate a slower pace of combat with more emphasis on group composition, tactics, and world dynamics in order to fully utilize those physics.

 

Hopefully the game as intended, with its myriad tactical problems of resource control and management, supply lines, defensive positioning, terrain considerations, and inter-guild relations leading to numerical superiority will better illustrate the full scope of combat over simply beating each other over the head. Right now it's a bit like flying a few starter frigates in Eve Online and orbiting each other while cycling weapons - and assuming that's the whole of the game. :)


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But what you get for the extra work is a far more tactical simulation where player position, vector, inertia, and target leading are important, and the player's interactions with the world around them begin to have importance, but the cost is you have to limit combat speed to perform those calculations - which impacts twitch noscope headshots and the mad jumping about that many people call PvP.

 

I'm fine with slower combat if it did make use of physics and make for a more strategic experience, but the current build doesn't do that for me.

 

Have collision, some aiming/projectiles, and a bit of push/pull powers, but for the compromises that come with this tech, not sure how much it is worth that can't be done with less "real" physics.

 

Hopefully they can figure it all out and the experience loses the clunky feel that many have voiced concern about, but there is no guarantee and I doubt that the non-combat features will make up for it.

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I'm fine with slower combat if it did make use of physics and make for a more strategic experience, but the current build doesn't do that for me.

 

Have collision, some aiming/projectiles, and a bit of push/pull powers, but for the compromises that come with this tech, not sure how much it is worth that can't be done with less "real" physics.

 

Hopefully they can figure it all out and the experience loses the clunky feel that many have voiced concern about, but there is no guarantee and I doubt that the non-combat features will make up for it.

 

Yeah, I definitely get that - and I'm hopeful that what we are seeing are just limitations of the test builds specific to the test environments.

 

Which is another thing I wonder if folks might be overlooking; that these are test environments... Normally when doing testing you don't have a win condition, because your testers will fixate on winning versus testing and start to get the impression the build is the real deal - when it isn't.

 

Hell, for all we know the poor performance could be all the additional instrumentation in the test builds as ACE tries to compensate for bug reports of "it sucks". :D


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