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MiracleMax

ACE Q&A For September: Official Discussion Thread

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I forgot my sarcasm tags...

Was Wormboy being sarcastic when he called out your obstinance? Joking about it doesn't dismiss the action.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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Was Wormboy being sarcastic when he called out your obstinance? Joking about it doesn't dismiss the action.

 

I don't know if I was being obstinate. I'll admit I've been hammering home some issues which I feel should be addressed. I'll agree I'm not entitled to an answer, but I'm passionate about this project and I'll continue to voice my concerns when certain issues crop up.

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You guys said since its 50 / 50 it's acceptable to end up one way or the other on combo cost but why can't we have both ? Such as some combos are up front cost and others as you activate pay ? Why does it have to be all or nothing ?

 

Edit - just to state it , we as well prefer cost per activate on skill not front loaded. In fact I don't know one tester who prefers this front loaded mechanic. But if there can be a compromise let's hear it. Any chance of a toggle to give players choice ?

Edited by barab

Hammers High !!  Master Brewer of the Dwarven Hold Mithril Warhammers

 

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1. Make a poll on forums.

2. Write mass mail to every Crowfall Testser / Backer  and inform them that there is topic on forum, which will stay active for 30 days, the can cast their vote on particular problem team is facing and would like to hear community opinion on.

3. Procced to check reasults and act on them. (and at same team show community how most of people think)

 

I don't understand why ACE or similar studios don't tap fans/backers directly in such ways.

 

Seems like a poll/survey would be a lot cheaper/faster to get a lot of player feedback than digging through tons of threads/posts or simply missing out on what their customers want.

 

Obviously they have the final say, but if they are on the fence about a choice that could go either way, seems like an easy tie-breaker.

 

Testing potential could be focused a lot more in this way as well. Instead of letting us loose to provide feedback on whatever, giving us a couple things to focus on during a particular test/build period would help speed up the process.

 

I'd feel a lot more inclined to participate in gameplay testing and providing feedback if I thought it actually matter beyond lip service.

 

Even if I'm just 1 out of 500 that vote for something in a poll.

 

Ex: Myrmidon feedback - looking at the archetype specific forum along with the individual testing days, really isn't a whole lot. Same few folks giving their views and what not, but not a huge resource or representation of what I'd imagine the potential could be.

 

Not that the "community" needs to be larger or more active, don't see a lot of harm in getting people talking either. Even if it is just for a day or two, much like the news updates.

 

Drop a poll/question and give those that are absent a reason to stop in for a few minutes and then go about their business.

Edited by APE

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The reason that front loading of resources for combos is terrible is because it essentially tells you how the devs want you to play your character. It discounts the creativity and on the fly adjustments that skilled players should be making.  Obviously its frustrating trying to complete a combo and not having enough resources, but ultimately its up to the player to manage those resource to ensure they can perform the skill they want.

 

If there was some more freedom in the combos instead of the current gating that we have now then perhaps it would not be as much of a problem. As an alternative, allow movement and left click attacks to not interrupt the next phase of the combo for some small amount of time (3-5 seconds?). This allows players the freedom to position themselves and accumulate small amounts of resource if needed to complete the combo. It also gives players the freedom to improvise and switch to an entirely new skill/combo if the circumstances dictate without wasting a ton of resources on a combo that will get you or your team killed.

 

An example of this type of system would be Witches/Wizards in BDO, specifically the fireball/fire explosion combo. In order to cast fire explosion you had to first cast fireball, and a lot of players new to the class typically cast them one after the other. However, the combo mechanics gave you 6 seconds to follow up with fire explosion after casting fireball, and you were free to cast any other spells and move freely during that time. The reason this was important was because fire explosion applied a knockdown, so timing it effectively for use with other skills was very important.

 

The front loading of the resources just feels like a lot of hand holding and appears lazy in terms of coding a better alternative.

 

Front loading seems very easy to change as they've already had it a different way and provides little benefit beyond helping those that don't want to do a lot of thinking. Make it a toggle or require a little bit of critical thinking in gameplay, not that complicated.

 

Combos along with character design are a lot more complex.

 

CF's system doesn't really fit my idea of what "combos" are as it leaves little option in really comboing anything. Hitting 1 1 A or 1 1 A/B isn't the most deep design I've seen, especially when a lot of situations make A or B less than useful, removing any strategy. Might just be semantics, but Power Chains or something else would fit it better.

 

While they could allow a delay between steps in the combo like BDO, that would also open up potential for unforeseen options that might be clearly OP and result the in typical nerf/buff/tweak cycle. They'll already have plenty of this with additional character building (runes-disciplines-promo class, etc).

 

I'd rather not see the typical one shot combos that remove options for the victim. With a controlled system, if I see someone do A and know B or C will follow, I can think ahead, if they can do A-Z, not so much. Removes the pro/reactive gameplay and just turns into mash the ideal combos the fastest with the quickest fingers winning.

 

To me it is like Chess vs CCG without the turn based system. Neither is better, but one seems easier to manage while still allowing skill to shine. Although CF's system isn't either.

 

Problem is we have very little to work with and no real idea of what will become available. The additional character building options might make things a lot more interesting that a complex combo system might not even be in our benefit.

 

With how they've described the combat design and the actual build itself, it seems they want combat slower than other "action" type games and limiting potential combos/choices is one way to do this. However, if the additional build options don't result in variety between archetypes of the same type, combat and the game will probably be pretty snooze worthy. 

Edited by APE

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I also hate front-loading combo costs (and damage splitting).

Front-loading actually helps Druids, who need to spend essence early when they switch to the Nuke tray.

 

I do like ACE allowing more time to do powers further down the combo chain.

This allows players more flexibility, makes combat feel less rooted, and lets the deeper powers in the combo actually get used more often.

Building outside your city is a great idea, but please not walls. I have played a few games that let you make walls anywhere and the bigger guilds would just wall you out of zones. Not fun even if the campaign will end.

Go ahead and build that fortress around your tin mine, big guilds.

Now you have to man the walls 24/7, with enough players to defend it, or some ninja group will come along and carry off your wall materials and some tin while you're sleeping. 


I think the K-Mart of MMO's already exists!  And it ain't us!   :)

 

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I don't understand why ACE or similar studios don't tap fans/backers directly in such ways.

 

Seems like a poll/survey would be a lot cheaper/faster to get a lot of player feedback than digging through tons of threads/posts or simply missing out on what their customers want.

 

Obviously they have the final say, but if they are on the fence about a choice that could go either way, seems like an easy tie-breaker.

 

Testing potential could be focused a lot more in this way as well. Instead of letting us loose to provide feedback on whatever, giving us a couple things to focus on during a particular test/build period would help speed up the process.

 

I'd feel a lot more inclined to participate in gameplay testing and providing feedback if I thought it actually matter beyond lip service.

 

Even if I'm just 1 out of 500 that vote for something in a poll.

 

Ex: Myrmidon feedback - looking at the archetype specific forum along with the individual testing days, really isn't a whole lot. Same few folks giving their views and what not, but not a huge resource or representation of what I'd imagine the potential could be.

 

Not that the "community" needs to be larger or more active, don't see a lot of harm in getting people talking either. Even if it is just for a day or two, much like the news updates.

 

Drop a poll/question and give those that are absent a reason to stop in for a few minutes and then go about their business.

 

Psst!

 

We're always watching...  :ph34r: 


Max Lancaster, ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.

Follow us on Twitter @crowfallgame | Like us on Facebook

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I think the fundamental functionality of the "combo" system in this game is flawed and contributes to how awkward combat feels, but I'll settle for getting rid of front loaded resources.

 

From what I've experienced on the Legionnaire, the combos are nearly impossible to compete. I am constantly suddenly past my target after the first strike and have to turn around and try to re-orient on the target. It was common enough for me to not be able to get the 2nd combo attack and never the 3rd.

 

As a result I lost rage for attacks that i can never complete. As such, front loading is a waste of resource (Rage) and so i am stuck to only do standard attacks and save what rage i have for other things (healing, scatter horde, etc..). The standard attacks do pathetic damage and heals (except for the C heal) are almost not worth casting.

 

The Legionnaire seriously needs love, especially now that the mino is in the game.

 

Personally I preferred ShadowBane where you clicked a special attack/weapon power and the next attack implements it with it's effects. No combo's except for the ones you make for yourself.

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From what I've experienced on the Legionnaire, the combos are nearly impossible to compete. I am constantly suddenly past my target after the first strike and have to turn around and try to re-orient on the target. It was common enough for me to not be able to get the 2nd combo attack and never the 3rd.

 

This sounds like an issue with root motion and less so combos (tho I'm willing to bet the interaction between the two is an issue). "Missing" sends you soaring past your target.

 

I read some where that tblair was talking about how they were having issues conveying a "miss", and that root motions helped with this.

Edited by helix

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I read some where that tblair was talking about how they were having issues conveying a "miss", and that root motions helped with this.

 

 

Uhhhh, simple solution. Add a "hit' sound when you hit and no "hit" sound when you miss. Problem solved, with no need for root motion.

 

Shooting past your target when you swing at them with a staff/pole arm (and missing) while standing still is dumb. If you have to charge at them, then it makes sense.

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Uhhhh, simple solution. Add a "hit' sound when you hit and no "hit" sound when you miss. Problem solved, with no need for root motion.

 

Shooting past your target when you swing at them with a staff/pole arm (and missing) while standing still is dumb. If you have to charge at them, then it makes sense.

 

I agree. If the only way to convey a "miss" is to have root motions push you in the most awkward way imaginable past a target; there's something definitely wrong there. I'll try and find that quote with tblair, I remember reading it and double facepalming like a mofo.

 

 

It is really hard to communicate that people don't hit their targets because they miss them! It is much easier to see a "miss" in flytext as most folks have gotten used to, but doing it in that manner has never been part of the combat system we have been building. The downside is it appears as if the game prevented the target from taking damage but in reality you missed because you had nothing under your reticle.

 

 

 

If you've been playing (and I know you have), you'll realize that unless your reticle is positioned fairly perfectly on the target, you'll end up skipping past them since you clearly "missed" them. In other games, you'd simply just miss them and the visual indicator would be obvious (like in DFO which 100% aim based and there was no DOUBT WHATSOEVER that you missed your target). In CF the visual indicator that you've missed your target while playing melee is you leap past your them as you awkwardly try to re-target them.

 

If you initiate your attack and they move ever so slightly out of the way of your reticle you CAN redirect in "mid-air" but it's not all that great IMO.

 

Pre-RM I thought that ranged combat needed an overhaul and was awful, but now I think ranged combat might actually be the most suitable way to play the game.

Edited by helix

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Adding to what Helix said, and building on what Thomas said - ok, so let's say I perfect my melee targetting, so that my opponent is under my reticle when I'm striking him.  If I'm not perfectly under his reticle when he's striking me, he slides past me and I miss my followup combo attacks because his root motion made him slide past me.

 

The lurching past someone with root motion is awkward both for the attacker and the person being attacked, as things stand.

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Adding to what Helix said, and building on what Thomas said - ok, so let's say I perfect my melee targetting, so that my opponent is under my reticle when I'm striking him.  If I'm not perfectly under his reticle when he's striking me, he slides past me and I miss my followup combo attacks because his root motion made him slide past me.

 

The lurching past someone with root motion is awkward both for the attacker and the person being attacked, as things stand.

 

It also makes combat look and feel like complete dog shizzle.

Edited by helix

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... (like in DFO which 100% aim based and there was no DOUBT WHATSOEVER that you missed your target)...

 

 

In DFO you hear a "thonk" sounds every time you hit (melee or bow). Makes it very easy.

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Adding to what Helix said, and building on what Thomas said - ok, so let's say I perfect my melee targetting, so that my opponent is under my reticle when I'm striking him. If I'm not perfectly under his reticle when he's striking me, he slides past me and I miss my followup combo attacks because his root motion made him slide past me.

 

The lurching past someone with root motion is awkward both for the attacker and the person being attacked, as things stand.

They need those chorded actions...


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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