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Bramble

What is the granularity of items that can be placed in an EK?

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I was casually reviewing some EK sources the other day just for catch up.  At the high level nothing appears changed of course:  grid squares, parcels, buildings.

 

Then we have types of parcels I think, river, forest, mountain.

 

Then we have building/structure types that can be placed.

 

Has there ever been any discussion regarding "wilderness" artifacts that could be placed like Trees?

Edited by Bramble

“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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So far it looks like cells just have baked in features, rather than letting you place individual trees.

 

Is there a real need for that level of creation possibilities? As long as ACE offers enough variety it should let you set up nearly any landscape. Dense or sparse forest, grasslands, swampland cells maybe. Id love to see desert themed cells, and maybe ancient ruins type cells also.


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Devs are really pushing for Campaign world editing  tools to be reuseable in the EKs.. and I imagine there is a tree brush for the CWs. 

 

I REALLY expect there to be a possibility to paint forests and vegetation and such. I will bet money on it in fact:

 

 

I imagine we will see cosmetic parcels popping up in the addon store - as well as roads, ruins, monuments and rivers/bridges etc. 

 

We have all these farmland parcels - I would love to see windmills, watermills and little hamlets tucked away in the forests and mountains.. and I think there must be some level of granular editability there - otherwise every single cell is going to look the same.

 

If you have 10 or 20 tax free farm cells how do you make them all look different unless you have a high level of customization? What if I want to be a tree farmer? :P

 

So yeah.. Im optimistic :)

 

 

*Fingers crossed* =)

Edited by Deloria

www.CrowfallRP.com


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It will probably be more procedural. Where you specify a type (I.e. grassland) but you could twiddle some dials that would specify things like tree density, terrain undulation, river types etc. And then you could populate it with resource or mob spawners and place buildings.


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Has there ever been any discussion regarding "wilderness" artifacts that could be placed like Trees?

I don't remember which video it was in, so sorry I can't give you a source; but I do remember talk about going into a CW and being able to bring back a tree to plant into your EKs.  There should be no reason we can't place individual trees as they are just another Unity object like a tower or wall.  So the decision will be whether ACE allows us to place those items, or if they will only be procedurally placed.  Even with procedural generation the trees themselves are just placed objects varying in randomness based on the procedural algorithm.


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What caused the question on my part was one of the things I enjoyed out of Archeage, a game I (in the end) considered a huge disappointment.   The game had a lot of cool ideas in it, but in the end (truncating wall of text reasons relating to all the problems the game has) . . .

 

Still, during what I call "The In-Between" of Trade Running, Ocean Running, Hasla, etc., one of the unpolluted pleasures I had, which was a unique in my experience feature of an MMO, was . . .

 

. . . I had the power to CHANGE THE WAY THE WORLD LOOKED.  Nothing new here for anyone that played AA:  Plant a forest.  In the open world.

 

Now, I didn't take it to the nutty level some did by planting thousands of trees, but I did engage in fair sized planting sprees, in specific locations with some traffic.  A favored spot was Wardton in Solzreed.  Small village setting, but a fair amount of lowbie traffic.  Unenhanced, it was a typical "barren" village/town off the road, very little vegetation in / around the town itself (discounting the quest Pines across the road at one place).

 

When I was in "In Between" mode I'd roll into Wardton with a full selection of various trees, both evergreen and leafy, or flowering, and a mix of colors, and go to town landscaping the area.  I'd mix it up, try to make it look "real", or even landscaped.

 

There was some pleasure in going back every (X) number of hours to see how things changed as they went through growth stages.  Once fully grown Wardton looked completely different.  Until players started chopping them down of course.  But most of the time, surprisingly, people left them up until they got fully grown, and left them there for a while.  I even had people stop a couple of times, look around, then come back and help out with their own selections.

 

Now, this is "Suzy Home-Maker" type of EK PvE stuff.  However, nothing says the materials (say seeds or saplings) couldn't be placed in the CWs, which is rightfully where they should be found, if we were to assume it was possible (which it may not).  But, a huge part of building an Estate, for instance, isn't just the building, but the grounds surrounding it.  Long drives lined on either side with flowering cherry, or what have you.  Wind breaks of tall trees, perhaps Pines.

 

Anyway, just some admittedly random ponderings, wondering if any wilderness plantings would be considered.  Completely unfocussed musing is all.

 

Again, the tie here would have to be CWs. 

Edited by Bramble

“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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I kind of like the idea of being able to bring back rare or higher quality [tree seeds] from the Dying Worlds to [plant] as a show of wealth and power if you have a large merchant city, for example.

I mean, if you're opening your EK up to the public, your relics are basically on display for similar reasons. It seems reasonable that you should be able to have less explicitly overt shows of power in your kingdom as well.

Edited by goose

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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I kind of like the idea of being able to bring back rare or higher quality [tree seeds] from the Dying Worlds to [plant] as a show of wealth and power if you have a large merchant city, for example.

 

I mean, if you're opening your EK up to the public, your relics are basically on display for similar reasons. It seems reasonable that you should be able to have less explicitly overt shows of power in your kingdom as well.

 

I love this idea. I am not too interested in hoarding materials to bring back since I will probably need those in the campaign, but something pretty and decorative but otherwise insignificant would be awesome.

Edited by Mytherceria

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We know that there will be deck for our parcels. They haven't mentioned what they are yet though. Like you I hope it's more than just banners and signs. Having both "man made deco" and natural deck such as trees, plants, rocks, etc would be great.

 

The thing to be hopeful of is that they want to repurpose as many assets from the CW to the EKs and if they are making them anyways it's a good chance we'll get them through the store or crafting or maybe even as a reward we bring back!

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I kind of like the idea of being able to bring back rare or higher quality [tree seeds] from the Dying Worlds to [plant] as a show of wealth and power if you have a large merchant city, for example.

 

I mean, if you're opening your EK up to the public, your relics are basically on display for similar reasons. It seems reasonable that you should be able to have less explicitly overt shows of power in your kingdom as well.

 

You know, you've actually hit on a variation of what I was saying that's potentially bigger than initial appearances might suggest.  (pun intented).

 

As a fast bit of background (as I see it):

  • If we simply look at the idea of "badges of honor" or recognition, accomplishment, etc.  Then,
  • Consider the various reward "toys" any number of games provide for this purpose.  Some functional (PvP armor bought with Honor), some cosmetic, some a mix of both (e.g. Special Mounts only rewarded for specific reasons).
  • This includes such things as rewards/mounts/items/ . . . titles . . . rewarded for backing a game pre-launch.
  •  
  • In LOTRO they had a nice dynamic for Boss trophies that could be mounted in your yard or hung in your house.  FFXIV does this too, I'm sure others.
  • Trophies, special rewards, all those things are visual announcements of some form of accomplishment or participation (erm, or cash shop purchase I suppose, depending on game).

So now, full circle to Crowfall and what you've suggested, with a slight modification.  Surely NOT part of game planning at this point, may not even be possible.  But, as ideas go:

 

1)  As you stated, have some kind of rare tree / plant species that might be found in a CW.

2)  Artwork should be very nice, stand out.  Not whacky-alien, per se, just "unique" shape/color/foliage and-or fruit.

 

here's the big one:

 

3)  As a UNIQUE (and rare) find from a CW, give it the ability to continue growth to an Old Growth Stage.

 

The implication here is that the tree would attain a "spectacular" height and/or girth . . . eventually.  Time frame?  I don't know, as much as a year maybe?  More?  Less?  I'd say a year minimum for "Old Growth" stage in keeping with the idea of a persistent "Trophy" from a CW on display in an EK.

 

For someone that sticks with Crowfall for some time I would think this would be a great stand out show off for someone's kingdom.  As a Veteran Player or Guild it would be an immutable "monument" to long-term success in the CWs that resulted in a lucky, rare find.  Or just the fact someone spent time in the CWs, survived, and happened to get that lucky "lottery ticket" out safely.

 

I've not bothered to think much beyond this stage.  No real details, drop rate thoughts, limitations on how many per parcel or kingdom, etc., etc.

 

I just stuck with the high-level:  I go into someone's EK and see a Towering Elder Oak rising over a Keep, it would make me say "Whoa, what's that all about?!".

Edited by Bramble

“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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I love this idea. I am not too interested in hoarding materials to bring back since I will probably need those in the campaign, but something pretty and decorative but otherwise insignificant would be awesome.

 

I want to come to your EK and harvest your rare trees.


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Something to this effect was also on my mind the other day when perusing the parcel store.

 

The main thought that came to mind:  The parcel labelled "farm" had no indication of actually being a farm.  Now, I'm fairly certain this will be the case when it comes to variety or these "decks" we choose from with regards to these parcels (if I understood the notion), though it's a concern of mine nonetheless.

 

I'd like to see, at the very least, some pumpkin patches or maize growing, along with a farm house and perhaps a stable, if not too much trouble.  These could double as assets to create new worlds for campaigns, as well -- to fresh out their looks -- in addition to providing a more realistic approach to certain parcels within the Eternal Kingdoms.  Adding additional fruit (different types of trees) or vegetables over time should be relatively easy (comparatively speaking to other endeavors) since they're so small and are traditionally static assets.  They also provide immense diversity for nearly all purposes when it comes to campaign maps and Eternal Kingdoms.  This is a worthwhile task, if you ask me.

 

Any tool that allow edits, as talked about in this thread, would also be an asset to the team and players alike (in my opinion and with the limited knowledge I have).

Edited by Sindothyx

Dare to dream.  Never be satisfied with what is.  We're restricted by time and money.  But if we do not dare to dream, we will never improve efficiently when opportunity strikes.

Each feature has its own meta; it's own audience.  Who prefers simplicity versus intricate complexity?  Who does not?  When does it provide meaningful depth to a specific structure or economy?  Is there a way to implement both?  How many characters will they control?  And their options?

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What would be cool if for the trees recovered from CW, is if the tree had a label and date and final position of the world at completion. Have it display when the harvest tool tip would normally show up, but have that special type of tree be unchoppable.

 

Sort of like carving you initials into a tree, a permanent monument you placed in your EK, as part of a grove or however you wanted to plant it.

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Has there ever been any discussion regarding "wilderness" artifacts that could be placed like Trees?

 

I believe to remember that in one of the earlier building videos they mentioned that we might be able to place/adjust things like rocks and trees.

 

 

The parcel labelled "farm" had no indication of actually being a farm. 

 

I am not too sure about this. I think i've heard (maybe it was in an AMA) that we will be able to cultivate food. So that indeed some people can be farmers.

 

 

Devs are really pushing for Campaign world editing  tools to be reuseable in the EKs.. and I imagine there is a tree brush for the CWs. 

 

I REALLY expect there to be a possibility to paint forests and vegetation and such. I will bet money on it in fact:

 

Thats a complicated topic.

 

First, i remember the basics a bit differently.

 

ACE tries to reuse their development results as much as they can (saves time and money). What we get in the campaigns is likely to become available (to some degree) in the EKs - not the other way round ... meaning also that (for now) they will develop things that will have it's use in the EKs alone only if it is absolutely necessary.

 

So far so good, but the tools they use to build the parcels are no ingame tools.

 

They don't develop a user interface which can be used to modify the world within the game. The build the parcels offline and feed those data into the voxel engine. The tree brush for example is part of the (offline) program they use to build the parcels, but there is no such ingame tool. Such a thing they would have to develop specifically ... and why should they if it is not (and it isn't) needed for the CW's?

 

To understand more about the future possibilities and probabilities, we have to understand the difference between the voxel-world and the props.

 

Props are singular objects that have to be placed somewhere. A chest or a tree or a rock are typical props. Props can have their own mechanics. Like a small tree you plant (place) somewhere and over time it changes to mode 2, 3, 4 ... and with every stage it gets replaced with an other prop with different characteristics (like every stage gives a bigger tree and harvesting it would take longer and give more resources).

 

The voxel-world is basically a grid, a mesh, made of points within an 3D environment. Every voxel is one point, including it's attributes. Like it's position within the grid, it's material and physical attributes like weight, hitpoints and so on. All points together are the landscape we see ingame. In the end it's just some kind of a very thin blanket.

 

If you go to the end of the world in the current test build and take a look under it (or if you encounter a specific bug), you will see the difference between the mesh and the props. To save you some time, here is a picture.

 

SYWsheO.jpg

 

 

Regarding props, the possibility that we will get the opportunity to place them more or less freely within the EK's is very high.

 

ACE have to develop something that allows the system to manage positions and characteristics of props and the interactions between them and the players in the campaign worlds (like nodes we can harvest). And there have to be a system that allows players to place things in the world (like castle walls). It's not a too big step to allow players to place rocks and trees and other future environment "objects" = props.

 

It's a completely different thing with changing voxel-grid data though.

 

For example: If we would like to be able to build roads, at first this would mean that we would have to have the ability to change the material data of voxels. Now it is "woodland grass", then i click it, and now it has to be "paved path". This alone wouldn't be too complicated, but we would need a specific ingame interface to do so.

Then the system has to remember it. For now it is absolutely simple: We have a specific number of parcels and the game just loads the default parcel once we get into reach. If we were able to change the parcel data, the system would have to save and load not a handful of parcels but thousands or maybe even millions of parcels with specific data. This would need an additional system.

If we want to get a movement buff on "roads" (to say, if the floor voxels are made of a specific material), we would need a system that builds on other movement modificators (mostly used for water and slopes).

 

By the way, once we get into building roads, it's not that far away from building really custom designed parcels. But even big SOE developed years to get there and with a much bigger team, so ...

 

 

tl;dr: Props: yes. Farms: yes. Terrain changes: Not yet, but maybe later. Free parcel building: Let's talk about that after Crowfall got a million users.


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some parcels produce low tier resources as opposed to having buildings placed on them (the new parcels on sale are examples).  It would make sense to have a farm with which you could produce food as well if you wanted to have some emergency rations going into an EK.

 

The did mention in one of their recent videos that currently you can't adjust the trees/rocks on a parcel but they want to make that possible so you can tailor your EK as you like, but it likely won't change the function of the parcel.  you won't be able to fit buildings on it that you wouldn't normally be able to.

 

Remember you also get thralls to work the buildings that you put on parcels, so there's another layer of things to consider when putting them together.  We'll have to wait and see until they come out with the first version of the EK editor and see how much freedom we have, granted the first iteration is likely to be bare bones and testing basic mechanics so even then we won't know the full extent of what we can do.

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So far it looks like cells just have baked in features, rather than letting you place individual trees.

 

Is there a real need for that level of creation possibilities? As long as ACE offers enough variety it should let you set up nearly any landscape. Dense or sparse forest, grasslands, swampland cells maybe. Id love to see desert themed cells, and maybe ancient ruins type cells also.

 

https://youtu.be/4RT90Vb5m7o

 

From 0:42

 

"But it does have like offset rows of those little green squares, so you could really load that thing up, with particular trees".

 

Just watch the full thing, they also talk about seeds to grow trees etc.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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Thanks Kraahk


“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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