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bahamutkaiser

So... how's that Friendly Fire going?

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The idea that FF, as the OP wants, is realistic is pretty funny. I can't imagine trying to hit a guy with stick and instead of striking 3 of my friends by accident. That sounds like something out of the three f****** stooges.

That's exactly what's been discussed, everything will be better if they just turn ff on... liar.


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I wouldn't go so far as to say it was a promise...

They put this out http://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/f0f7cf9a27c2154c2384e35fb6c97f6f-650-80.jpg

 

It clearly says dregs = free for all. They also play to the ex shadowbane players, putting out "remember shadowbane glorydays" videos. Free for all and friendly fire was 100% expected to be an option in the dregs for a lot of people. They didnt just make that up, they were lead to believe that intentionally or not.

 

I understand things change in development but they never even tried to make combat work with friendly fire.

 

Bait n switch, sweep it under the rug, ignore it until people forget? Or it could be live in tonights test, who knows anymore lol

Edited by Ziz

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They put this out http://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/f0f7cf9a27c2154c2384e35fb6c97f6f-650-80.jpg

 

It clearly says dregs = free for all. They also play to the ex shadowbane players, putting out "remember shadowbane glorydays" videos. Free for all friendly fire was 100% expected to be an option in the dregs.

 

I understand things change in development but they never even tried to make combat work with friendly fire.

 

Bait n switch, sweep it under the rug, ignore it until people forget?

 

Or it could be live in tonights test, who knows anymore lol

Bait and switch Ziz, really? That is utterly ridiculous.

 

Your expectation is not AC's promise. Neither is the phrase "Free for all" necessarily the same as "friendly fire." At least not as the OP wants it. Frankly, the phrase "free for all" implies to me that there will be no grouping at all in the Dregs.

 

That sounds no fun at all to me. I'll be avoiding a ruleset where I can't group with the other -W-. I didn't come here for that. I came here for bad ass LARGE scale group combat. Remove the group and you remove me. That's for sure. I bet that's true for the vast majority of backers.

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Bait and switch Ziz, really? That is utterly ridiculous.

 

Your expectation is not AC's promise. Neither is the phrase "Free for all" necessarily the same as "friendly fire." At least not as the OP wants it. Frankly, the phrase "free for all" implies to me that there will be no grouping at all in the Dregs.

 

That sounds no fun at all to me. I'll be avoiding a ruleset where I can't group with the other -W-. I didn't come here for that. I came here for bad ass LARGE scale group combat. Remove the group and you remove me. That's for sure. I bet that's true for the vast majority of backers.

So your impression of no grouping would still mean you can attack anyone, including friendlies. aka friendly fire

 

Intentionally or not, i guarentee there are a lot of people expecting friendly fire as an option and if they dont get it they will feel like they were lied too.

 

I couldnt care less. Im just saying its an issue, ill take a knee over here ;)

Edited by Ziz

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You debate the FF topic based on your opinion, @Coolwaters - you never played Shadowbane solo or dual boxed?

It never happend small scale PvP when you was rune hunting for instance?

The campaign link ZiZ posted doesn`t lie - it`s why some of us invested an early access in the Crowfall game, because we had the option to decide which campaign that sounds interesting based on a great challenge and play style like the Dregs in the KS campaign which was the original vision.

 

I`ll talk about Shadowbane since I had probably had sage knowledge from that game. You always had an option to join a group in SB, @Coolwaters, even though you will never consider to play the game outside the group/guild scenario. It`s a bold statement, because outside mine/bane windows -

there were many players who enjoyed small scale PvP events like discipline rune hunting.  I wonder how many times I rolled CN with a buffed unarmed assassin or Nightstalker, solo, steam rolled through group of 10 players power leveling - it was not a huge accomplishment, but it was amusing at the time. :)

 

So my point was that the original vision of Dregs which was more based on the free for all scenario - solo type of playstyle with small unity wouldn`t be within your taste of play style, that much is obvious. But that particular play style happend in SB too, it was not none existance.

Edited by mythx

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Intentionally or not, i guarentee there are a lot of people expecting friendly fire as an option and if they dont get it they will feel like they were lied too.

 

As much as I respect your guarantee, those people seem made up to me. I just don't believe there are that many stupid backers.

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I think the point Coolwaters was trying to make to Ziz was that Free For All =/= Friendly Fire.

 

While, yes, you can hit you "allies" in a FFA environment, the game would basically just be categorizing your "allies" as enemies, not really allowing friendlies to be hit by your attacks (Though, I guess they are similar in a sense)

 

 

To my knowledge, mostly FPS's and Medieval combat simulators have FF; and in those games you have precise aiming. Crowfall's aiming isn't precise. What's ever is inside the DM when the attack goes off, will be hit by that attack, no exception. So, in that sense, it would make combat unfun, because "why is my char dumb enough to hit his allies while smacking this zombie   


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@Vikingnail

 

 

 

You've just backstopped into being snarky again.  You have a bad habit, stop that, it's not necessary.  As far as language goes there's never anything wrong with attempting to be clear, as opposed to turning ambiguity on and off.  My first MMO was FFA, red everywhere, even in your guild hall.  Differences of opinion <> the other guy not understanding language or l33t-Viking PvP.

 

Scenarios may require more or less skills (variety) of players within a domain, all the while moving actual Ceilings not one bit.  Needing to exercise more skill is not necessarily equal to raising a game platform's Skill Ceiling in a particular mechanics area.

 

"Skill Ceilings and Floors

Skill ceilings and floors are terms given to the skill levels at which a player controlled unit is capped by the game mechanics
  • They are often mistakenly used to describe the effectiveness of a unit at various skill levels."
"Skill Ceilings
Skill Ceiling - This is the term for the maximum amount of skill that can be applied to a player controlled unit with regards to its technical limitations.  Similarly, you can say that it is the point at which an additional application of skill will yield no additional effectiveness due to the limitations imposed on the unit through the game mechanics."
 
If we want to talk about what's important for PvP in Crowfall, lets try a test.  The point being FF isn't at the top of the list, nor IMO does it need to be:
 
1) No Lag is priority 1 (others posted this, I agree)
2)  Stable Client and Servers, no disconnects / crashes.  Right on top of #1
3) Clean combat mechanics with all their Skill Ceilings (see what I did there?  heh-heh) adjusted properly.  As Examples:  Ranged able to hit what they are aiming at "reasonably", from all ranges, not a case of almost never.  If trajectory/arc is implemented, it works, Projectile speeds tuned properly - assumed to be the case if To Hit as previously mentioned.  Instant cast versus cast time skills melee or ranged, again, balanced. Melee skills balanced, both single target and multi/aoe.  Cooldowns overall.  Effect durations.  Etc.,
4) Movement.  In combo with 3, how do our characters move, at what speeds?  Teleports, dashes, blinks?  Balanced and smooth.  Herky-jerky or even too fast trashes your ability to hit squat, or increase hitting stuff you didn't mean to, right?  (Think Skill Ceiling here Viking).
5)  Class Balance - In General.  I hated putting this one in because it's a potential Pandora's Box, but, my intent here is what it should NOT be in-game:  One or two classes owning all most of the time, or so durable they can simply shrug off FF.
 
and finally
 
6)  Friendly Fire.  This item is dependent on all five above, not the other way around no matter it does act as a perception/judgement modifier as a combatant.
 
Friendly Fire adds an additional consequence to poor or unskilled playing.  It adds a (potential) incentive for players to modify their conduct in group PvP (e.g. don't ball up), assuming they are willing to do so.  It more accurately represents how things work in the real world (I agree with one of our posters on this).  It discourages Blobs (it doesn't discourage Zergs).
 
But I don't see it as a Centerpiece Skill Ceiling Holy Grail at this point.  Other aspects of combat are, IMO, more foundational.
 
Because if FF "doesn't work" I'll still be sending ACE my money and playing a PvP game as a gamer who enjoyes PvP if all the other stuff is reasonable.  But if any one of 1 - 5 is screwed up enough, the PvP experience drops into the toilet.

 

I'm not being snarky though, I'm trying to be efficient because you keep trying to adhere to a definition of skill-ceiling that is irrelevant and limited in this discussion. 

 

Language evolves based on context... your definition of skill-ceiling just doesn't matter here, and even if it did, technically you would still be wrong, because in the end it all comes down to technical limitations.  If a game allows me to think faster and apply my thoughts faster than someone who doesn't think fast or doesn't apply thoughts as fast, then that is because the game is technically designed for that speed to exist.  If it decides that fireball is negated by fire armor but not negated by frost armor then that is a technical limitation it has put on its abilities. 

 

Again, it doesn't really matter what melvin thinks skill-ceiling is.  It matters what the connotation is. 

 

FF is a holy grail, it requires much more situational awareness than most other elements. 

 

It's really simple, they enable FF and let those that can handle FF play on it, and let those that can't have another option. 

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

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They put this out http://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/f0f7cf9a27c2154c2384e35fb6c97f6f-650-80.jpg

 

It clearly says dregs = free for all. They also play to the ex shadowbane players, putting out "remember shadowbane glorydays" videos. Free for all and friendly fire was 100% expected to be an option in the dregs for a lot of people. They didnt just make that up, they were lead to believe that intentionally or not.

 

I understand things change in development but they never even tried to make combat work with friendly fire.

 

Bait n switch, sweep it under the rug, ignore it until people forget? Or it could be live in tonights test, who knows anymore lol

 

You're wrong. They are going to try it, and YOU are going to beg them to take it away. That is the prediction that Todd made. It is not going to be a popular option among the majority of the player base, therefore that rule set will die pretty quickly. It makes no difference to them if friendly fire is included or not. They are making this game for us, if we demand it then they will do it.


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When I read the KS description of the Dregs as free-for-all, I expected it to be a grouping system. You choose who you group with, you can kill anyone you aren't grouped with even a guildmate. It was a description of the ruleset.  That's not the same thing as a combat system of 100% friendly fire - FF wasn't even mentioned in the KS.

 

I wasn't following the forums much until after the KS, I based my pledge on the KS description.


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[snip] . . .

 

Again, it doesn't really matter what melvin thinks skill-ceiling is.  It matters what the connotation is. 

 

FF is a holy grail, it requires much more situational awareness than most other elements. 

 

It's really simple, they enable FF and let those that can handle FF play on it, and let those that can't have another option. 

 

It matters Viking, because we have pages worth of line-noise talking about the obvious and the wrong thing.  Stop being disingenuous.  It's called being accurate and focussed for the purposes of progression during testing, not vague and wishy-washy for the purposes of self-involved stroking:

 

No one disagrees that FF, in general, requires "more situational awareness".  Simply repeating this like a broken record doesn't represent good communication skills or astute context.  Players exercising more or less skill in given situations doesn't equal Skill Ceiling shifting around.

 

  • The real CONTEXT here is . . . testing.  The actual POINT to Skill Ceilings is that it's something to ADJUST in mechanics to affect balance, or even feasability. 
  • If that IS the context, TESTING, then we want to be talking about things accurately, and attempt to (theoretically) cause more refined focus and attention in certain respects for Testers when they head into testing sessions.

Read that again.  Is that the proper CONTEXT for everyone WHO backed ACE, at this point in time, for those of us testing and ACE continuing development?  My prior post outlined where I believe all the core combat "Skill Ceiling" calibrations resided.  1-5.  At number 6 rested FF, because unless combat, movement, ranges, etc., are working right first, just throwing FF in there makes no sense.

 

Within context and in service of FF.  So put together some dialog regarding how the combat system is working now and why it's conducive to FF slotting in.  We don't need to hear "but FF will just make it betterz because you need to look around you betterz".  What we need to hear is your assessment on the core areas like ranged vs melee, projectile speeds, to hit how's that shaping up, mix of skills for melee single target vs multi and how that mix works for that character in various scenarios, etc.

 

I agree with your last sentence, which I assume relates to the different rules to be enabled in each band, correct?  I mentioned this much earlier in the thread.  If that's going to be the case, then there doesn't need to be any discussion at all, pro or con.  If that's the case, then what's the worry on anyone's part at all.

Edited by Bramble

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Friendly fire is another added major factor you have to account for when exploiting the system in this context "the combat". Another added factor inherently makes the system more complex, thus requiring more effort to operate the system correctly simply by virtue of the fact that you have to consider more factors when making decisions.

 

Since ability to make decisions is inherent to the concept of skills. I don't see how can anybody argue that introducing another factor does not increase the overall skill ceiling.

 

It's basic combinatorics really.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_product

 

The more choises you have the less are your chances of making the perfect "the most skillfull" decision. I.e. when you have two possible actions to make - one right action and one wrong action your chances of reaching the skill ceiling are 1/2 I.e 50%. When you add more factors and the number of possible actions you can perform increases significantly for example 2x3x4x5. So your chances of making that "perfect move" and reaching the skill ceiling decrease to 1/(2x3x4x5), making it harder to reach the skill ceiling. Now in reality it is a lot more complex than this, different factors have different weights, there can be more then one "perfect move" possibly conditionally on some other criterial, external factors etc. but the general principle stands true.

Edited by rajah

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You're beating on a dead horse.. Errr I mean - topic.

 

Get over it and move on.

Edited by Soulreaver

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Hello kitty online bear hug adventure that way with immunities >>>>> 

 

Now back to realism and battles including the FF topic and what @Todd promised or not is one thing, but do you guys believe that Todd designed and invented the FF game mechanic feature in games? No, he didn`t he borrowed the idea and vision from older games which use similar ideas like friendly fire to increase the overall difiiculty (holy grail) of a game feature.

He didn`t invent the wheel, guys..  :unsure:  

 

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The stone wheel science.  ^_^


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The merits of pure FF is one issue. This thread is another. Honestly, while I don't think pure FF will work well (at all) with a game like this, I don't care (at all) if FF is included in it's "pure" form, so long as most of the players actually have fun with it.

 

The only think that I find offensive in the thread is the histrionic cries by a very few backers essentially accusing AC of defrauding them.

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What do you mean he didn't invent it ?

 

lol, I think most are done with this topic, we all know that @Todd didn`t invent the stone wheel.  :)

 

Anyway FF is fun and it brings a good challenge with quick decisions on the battlefield - also in other games like in the battlefield series from Dice with millions of players world wide. 

Edited by mythx

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Crowfall Game Client: https://www.crowfall.com/en/client/

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