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bahamutkaiser

So... how's that Friendly Fire going?

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We told them to put it in. 

 

We told them it needed to be balanced around, and not added afterwards, or this would happen.

 

F*cking unbelievable incompetence. If this is true, whatever hope I still had for this rooted-combat damage-splitting MOBA-trash piece of poorly made socks game just went out the window.

 

Combat hasn't changed since the first player test. Shouldn't be that surprising. Nothing along the way has made it seem like they were building around or for FF.

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I never considered the game might have pure FF. Massive battles aren't built for pure FF. And yes, I'm saying massive battles in Darkfall blew chunks.

 

Was it "promised" someplace during KS or something? I've never seen it promised (aside from we'll try it and see how it is), but maybe I missed it.

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I feel as if FF won't go the way people are envisioning it. It probably won't be so much a factor of tactical combat, people will just use it to screw with team mates they don't like. It will be a troll fest, not create good combat. If anything I say here doesn't make sense, its 2 am, my ability to think is mostly gone. just my 2 cents

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Just wondering how this is coming along, or were we just supposed to forget?

 

I mean, we were getting friendly fire right? Strategic combat? Collision and physics?

 

I'm relying on the community now to keep me current, because I'm not entertained by hour long live streams of redundant information, was this addressed?

 

Well, that`s the plan, but I think @Todd focus on the God`s Reach campaign setting first. Maybe ACE think it will be the most popular campaign setting compare to the Shadows & Dregs - I really don`t know the main reason behind that decision.

So I`m just speculating that friendly fire will be added when they start to design different campaign worlds like in the Shadows and Dregs.

It`ll be an interesting poll which campaign are you interested in here in CF?  

I think majority of this player base will play God`s Reach for sure, because there are much less total amount of hardcore players like me who enjoy

a better challenge (difficulties) in games in general.

Edited by mythx

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I thought FF was a very important aspect and is what made this game appeal to me from the beginning. It was a way to break up the stack fighting this game would inevitably turn into and at the same time promote good play and coordination with teammates. I hope I'm wrong and my crystal ball is actually made from cheap glass, but without FF it's going to be zerg and stackfest... Maybe their "answer" to stack fighting and zerging will be collision / terrain / physics effects ? (like... drop a "rock" on the stack" as a bad exmaple)

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I thought we all stopped talking about friendly fire. Skill ceiling is too low here to even worry about friendly fire. As others have mentioned, combat and current infrastructure can't support friendly fire. Myrmidon would be pretty useless as a team character with FF enabled.

 

In Shadowbane some effects didn`t affect group members - that might be the way to go.. Otherwise it will be a huge zerg party without any skills involved with FF enabled in the Shadows & Dregs campaign setting. 
Like an example: Alliance A have 10 different groups vs alliance B with 12 different groups (Let say 1 group is limited to 10 players.) You also need a group player limit with such a system. It might work better compare to a full FFA friendly fire environment including own group members though. I don`t see that work very well with the current archetype powers at all which I mention T. Blair Everquest background.
 
Otherwise it`s no point with Shadows & Dregs campaigns, and I won`t play this game - certainly nail in the coffin for me. Because I dont enjoy huge faction war settings like in the God`s Reach - it doesn`t appeal to me.

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I thought FF was a very important aspect and is what made this game appeal to me from the beginning. It was a way to break up the stack fighting this game would inevitably turn into and at the same time promote good play and coordination with teammates. I hope I'm wrong and my crystal ball is actually made from cheap glass, but without FF it's going to be zerg and stackfest... Maybe their "answer" to stack fighting and zerging will be collision / terrain / physics effects ? (like... drop a "rock" on the stack" as a bad exmaple)

There are allready enough abilitys that discourage zerging or stack fighting as you call it. They sayed ages ago that if you try to zerg in this game you will have a very bad time thanks to player colision, pulse aoe & chain skills. If you zerg you are dead. If you played one of the recent play tests you should know that this game allready promotes coordination with team mates.

 

As said abouve any form of FF makes range classes in this game useless. In games like chiv you have bullet drop for arrows so you can hit enemys over the head of your allies but its still very hard and mutch more effective to just rush melee.

 

The dregs are the first campain to be released acording to my info. They said they promised it in the KS and so the first thing they do it deliver that.

 

I think that the dregs are pretty mutch FFA until you join a group / guild. So you can still turn traitor by either opening the gates to enemys or leave the group/guild in a critical time and attack you former team mates. That however is speculation on my part.


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Well, that`s the plan, but I think @Todd focus on the God`s Reach campaign setting first. Maybe ACE think it will be the most popular campaign setting compare to the Shadows & Dregs - I really don`t know the main reason behind that decision.

So I`m just speculating that friendly fire will be added when they start to design different campaign worlds like in the Shadows and Dregs.

It`ll be an interesting poll which campaign are you interested in here in CF?  

I think majority of this player base will play God`s Reach for sure, because there are much less total amount of hardcore players like me who enjoy

a better challenge (difficulties) in games in general.

 

ace will focus on shipping the dregs out first. I think it was also mentioned in the q&a for september or so. (should be on this time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbtacoQZanM&feature=youtu.be&t=406)

 

 

If we look at this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arjRVLlws54  (specifically at this: https://youtu.be/arjRVLlws54?t=931 

 

You can see that the larger scale performance may come around to a point where they can try out FF but at the moment large scale battles like let's say 200 vs 200 are somewhat impossible. Not only performance wise but also you don't have any indicator who is a friend and who is a foe nor when it comes to the actual battle you easily lose the grasp of the situation and it becomes more of a battle royal. I mean if I look at this video care to explain where I have to aim when firing my AoE's or my Balista Skills? And this video just shows them running around. If everyone execute skills, etc. = whole new level. 

 

I know some guilds here are actually working on holding their formation but I saw some of them having some troubles with 6vs6vs6.

 

As already mentioned - at the moment in the hunger dome or SP FF won't really work as good as it sounds. I think that they should introduce it with the first campaign tests since I think if you give people more time to get to know your archetype and play out different variations and give them more time (and not have to hurry up like in HD) people will get to more strategic decisions rather than rushing, making errors, etc. 

 

And with more time people may work out some strategies to make FF work (even with the current system). For example group vs. group - melees are already in combat with the attackers. A good teamplayer won't fire their arrows into the mob. Maybe he goes around firing his attacks from the side? Or what so ever. But in my view this kind of play can't be created in the HD nor in the SP nor with the current UI or the current performance. )

 

I sincerely hope that with the Throne War Module they might consider putting on Friendly Fire. 

Edited by Thyr

You get the wolves...lots of wolves...and sheep that wear armor and have developed an appetite for blood soaked grass - dubanka

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I never cared about friendly fire but i know this will be the nail in the coffin for a lot of people.

 

Its a subpar combat system that is basicslly worse than every other game and it removes huge game systems people wanted

This is depressing, considering that we warned them, we told them.. And they kept answering: "dont worry it's prealpha"... Edited by Fenris DDevil

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ACE need to test FF soon and adjust some of the powers on the archetypes accordingly (Maybe the game will be delayed for another 6 months,) but it`s worth it - otherwise you will lose customers.

 

It`s much easier to turn off the FF like in the God`s Reach campaign with factions - that much is obvious.

 

@Thyr -nods, I watched the video it was about fps performance in the Unity engine and LoD with 200 characters - imagine when all start to cast powers with spell effects in a siege based on the fps topic.

 

Yes true, core Campaign modules include the Dregs, @Todd said in that Q&A video - I just think it`s a good idea to enable (FF versions) to test it out properly.

Edited by mythx

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Its alpha.

 

As i understand from the links they said FF will happen.

 

I think you guys just need a little bit of faith that they are designing the game according to a plan.

 

I think FF is one of those things that will need to be balanced and optimised so really is sort of an adjustment that will come later. But having said that, once all the archetypes are optimised and the engine can support larger numbers - and also the different CW settings can be tested (probably a beta thing) why would FF be so hard to do?

 

So I think some people are a bit nervous for nothing. The game is still under development.

 

Have faith!

 

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It's not as much that Friendly Fire is hard to do or implement. It's possibly just a switch in the Unity engine as to whether or not attacks can hit and damage friendly targets.

 

The problem is more that making it work properly with the current mechanics can be bothersome. Melee characters being close to each other with cone attacks, ranged allies being unable to hit enemies from behind allies (so you can't have a proper front and back-line), etc.

 

Sure, the players will always find a way to make it work and you can argue that the harder it is, the more skillful players will be rewarded. But if the mechanics don't mesh well together, combat with friendly fire will just be annoying and turn people off from the game.

 

Personally, it would have been better to have had FF enabled from the beginning, so that the mechanics could have been build up around it. Much easier to then later turn it off for the higher bands of campaign worlds.

Edited by Smed

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Probably, ACE could run a coulple games with FF turned on, just to see what is it going to look like.

I think the current system will not necessarily be bad with FF, might make the gameplay slower and more strategic, especially group melee. it will be a different type of game.

Edited by rajah

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Its almost like -- 11 months ago -- we told them they needed friendly fire turned on so that they could develop a combat system that actually had the tactical implications of friendly fire, and they ignored us, and built a combat system with no consideration for the tactical implications of friendly fire!

 

<snip>

 

F*cking unbelievable incompetence. If this is true, whatever hope I still had for this rooted-combat damage-splitting MOBA-trash piece of poorly made socks game just went out the window.

 

This is depressing, considering that we warned them, we told them.. And they kept answering: "dont worry it's prealpha"...

 

I was afraid my reply about FF would be taken like this. This was the discussion we had with Todd as well. Again, I'm not willing to talk about what has been said in that discussion in here.

 

Was it "promised" someplace during KS or something? I've never seen it promised (aside from we'll try it and see how it is), but maybe I missed it.

 

Like Coolwaters, the question I want to ask you, did ACE actually promised FF to be in the game? You seem to think so, but I'm not sure. Can you show us quotes, or something else as 'proof' that ACE promised that FF would be part of the game? The community asking for FF over and over doesn't make it a 'ACE promised it to us' feature really.

Edited by Caenth

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It's not as much that Friendly Fire is hard to do or implement. It's possibly just a switch in the Unity engine as to whether or not attacks can hit and damage friendly targets.

 

The problem is more that making it work properly with the current mechanics can be bothersome. Melee characters being close to each other with cone attacks, ranged allies being unable to hit enemies from behind allies (so you can't have a proper front and back-line), etc.

 

Sure, the players will always find a way to make it work and you can argue that the harder it is, the more skillful players will be rewarded. But if the mechanics don't mesh well together, combat with friendly fire will just be annoying and turn people off from the game.

 

Personally, it would have been better to have had FF enabled from the beginning, so that the mechanics could have been build up around it. Much easier to then later turn it off for the higher bands of campaign worlds.

 

1st - it is just a switch they can turn on and off. They said it in a video back then. 

 

2nd - The question lies on how high you set the bar. Too high = bad, too low = also bad. And if they had turn FF on from the very beginning I doubt we would see any results since the hunger dome is an environment which isn't really suited for FF to begin with. Maybe the first couple of minutes in the outskirts but certainly not when the hunger is already at the keep. Also the goal of the first tests was neither archetype balance nor ff but the combat system which combines security (client server relation), somewhat physics, the action combat approach and well... whatever you want to add. 

 

However along the way I hoped or thought that FF would be introduced with the larger battlezones (for example SP) as you had more room and also more time (kind of - applies to the throne war mod.) to experiment with position play which is crucial for FF. You can't just throw FF into a game and expect people to play with the current HD settings and the current UI setting and say "yeah, here you have it. Now deal with it". 

 

Sure it takes time but sooner or later it is too late which is why I hope they at least do some tries with it soon. 

 

 

I was afraid my reply about FF would be taken like this. This was the discussion we had with Todd as well. Again, I'm not willing to talk about what has been said in that discussion in here.

 

The question I want to ask you, did ACE actually promised FF to be in the game? You seem to think so, but I'm not sure. Can you show us quotes, or something else as 'proof' that ACE promised that FF would be part of the game? The community asking for FF over and over doesn't make it a 'ACE promised it to us' feature really.

 
As far as I took it (long time ago) - people were speculating about it since the band rules showed something like FF on/off. And I think in one video they talked about it for quite some time but for me - I never thought that they actually promised it to us. Neither in the KS nor later. They only said "if it is possible to implement in a good way, why not". 
 
Also the speculation got heated up since the dregs was hailed (by some people) as the one and only band you should play CF. 
Edited by Thyr

You get the wolves...lots of wolves...and sheep that wear armor and have developed an appetite for blood soaked grass - dubanka

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This thread, like a lot of others, is pure speculation from players about what they imagine FF to be / not be. And it has a lot of the characteristics of other threads demanding gameplay features.

 

*OMG if they dont let us test >>Insert desired feature here<< and it doesnt work exactly how i imagine it will this game is DOOOMED!!!!*

 

We are so privileged to get to see a game being developed from scratch. But that means we see it way early when features we want simply arent there. This level of alpha is entirely invisible to audiences in regular game developments. Being impatient that something you ewant isnt there yet is... just silly.

 

IMHO People need to seriously calm down andf let the devs develop according to their plan instead of ranting about how *this is gonna lose customers* or *this is the final straw*  or *omg we warned them!* or whatnot. 

 

No. It really really isn't. It really really REALLY won't be. You really really didn't.

 

 

The only way Art+Craft will lose customers is if the finished product doesn't appeal to players. Thats a long way off and at the end of a pretty convincing plan.

This is not the final straw because they will do it if its right for the game they want to sell. Thats it.

They will take our feedback (including *warnings* and panic alerts with the same pinch of salt they give every other suggestion from the players): Under advisement.

 

There is NO constructive way to judge any gameplay element in its absence, and no-one in this thread can offer anything other than idle speculation about how any game feature will be / should be / won't be introduced. 

 

Ranting cos something you want hasnt been put on the table yet is kind of a disservice to Art+Craft and to the community. Chill please!


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These kind of discussions provide valuable feedback for the developers about aspects that their target audience does or does not find important. If you just "keep going according to the plan" chances of coming up with something that nobody likes are higher.

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