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bahamutkaiser

So... how's that Friendly Fire going?

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If one is so dissatisfied then perhaps stepping back and taking a break might be the more healthy choice over continuing to just gripe and moan and not be productive or constructive.

 

+1 to that, Pang. People need to calm the friick down and remember that we're all here to enjoy a video game and not to berate one another. This community has a lot of great people in it and clearly ya'll are passionate about this topic ... but you can get your point across without the negativity towards one another.

 

... and quoting people in your signature against their will and refusing to remove it when politely asked? That's just being childish and should be moderated.

 

Cmon kids ... start playing nice or the mods will take the ball away and we'll all have to sit in timeout.

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I evaluate each feature based on how it affects my priorities for the game:

  1. Reducing lag. because CF will be no fun if it's unresponsive or bumps us in combat.     FF seems to not affect this. It may even help by killing off toons faster, thus reducing server demands.
  2. Anti-Zerg. Giving smaller, well-coodinated groups a fighting chance, instead of CF being purely a census numbers game. FF is anti-zerg. So FF is essential.
  3. Realism. Features that are intuitively reasonable appeal to me as more fun. FF happens in our universe.
  4. (I can't think of more priorities that are affected by FF now)

 

There is an important one:

 

Empowering trolls and discouraging pugs: FF harms this a lot. People who want to troll will have the ultimate tool in their hands to kill others "for the lols". Eventually the community stops to accept people they don't know or never played with in their groups for fear of them being trolls or simply enemy spies that will betray the main group with FF at the first time it is vulnerable.

 

FF also makes it much harder for players starting the game who might not be as skilled and will end up hitting their friends.

 

To be clear, I haven't made my mind yet if FF is good for Crowfall or not, there are arguments for both sides. But this is another consequence to consider.


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Guild Leader/ High Elder

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There is an important one:

 

Empowering trolls and discouraging pugs: FF harms this a lot. People who want to troll will have the ultimate tool in their hands to kill others "for the lols". Eventually the community stops to accept people they don't know or never played with in their groups for fear of them being trolls or simply enemy spies that will betray the main group with FF at the first time it is vulnerable.

 

FF also makes it much harder for players starting the game who might not be as skilled and will end up hitting their friends.

 

To be clear, I haven't made my mind yet if FF is good for Crowfall or not, there are arguments for both sides. But this is another consequence to consider.

 

 

Just curious what games have you played that had FF ? Not saying what you described doesnt occur but from my experience it isnt the norm. Especially so in a guild based game.


Hammers High !!  Master Brewer of the Dwarven Hold Mithril Warhammers

 

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Back on topic: many people in this thread keep saying things like "they can always just turn it on whenever they want", "we'll see how many people enjoy it when they finally turn it on."

 

The great concern we have isn't that they'll never flick the "FF switch" to the "up" position. Its that they will, and that they will have put zero planning into preparing for it. Which has been validated by 11 months of them ignoring our warnings to them.

 

Its like trying to plan a house in a vacant lot but deciding you want this really nice fireplace in the center, and you get 11 months into building this really big house but have put nothing in place for the central fireplace, despite so many construction workers constantly and repeatedly telling the foreman "i don't think this will work as a whole if we don't build around this central fireplace you suggested." 

 

Eventually it gets to the point where the foreman actually says "ok lets wall up this center" and the construction workers are looking at each other like he's insane, because 11 months ago he said he wanted a fireplace there, but he ignores their concerns and says nothing on it.

 

And so finally the house is nearly built and the foreman says "ok fine lets just see how it fits in now for fun lol i wonder how well it will work" and he throws a bunch of bricks into the center of the house and it breaks walls and compromises load-bearing support and it looks terrible and he says "wow i guess we shouldn't have this after all, look how bad this turned out."

 

Is it too late for them to add support for FF beyond "flicking the switch on"? I don't know. I hope not, but again, this latest news looks like not even the foreman believes in his original vision anymore.

 

Also re: calls for moderation. 

 

C'mon kids, starting dealing with your own problems and grow some thicker skin... 

Edited by vucar

aka honeybear

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Im not sure how the current combat does not support FF. Almost everything is directional, the things that are area effect are a no brainer, dont use them when allies are near by or save them which the ratio to enemy to allies is favorable. 

 

Of course this leads to then ranged cant attack melee because your people are in front of them blocking you. What do people think friendly fire is? The ability to shoot through your own people to hurt the enemy and not hurting them in the meantime? But then only some abilities effect everyone?

 

What combat system do you think would be good for friendly fire? One where you either lock target someone with abilities and then other cone/AoE effect FF only? That makes FF half-implemented and a easy cop out.

 

Like i said previously, if you want FF then you have to accept that you cant have two sides just smash in to each other randomly with pure chaos and expect to have any kind of logical out come.

 

What did organized battle plans and strict battle formations do for warfare? Why do this? Why not just have 500 people throw their bodies at 500 other people in pure frenzy? Why did this rarely work?  Because more often then that people would kill their own people in the heat of the moment. Thats why battle formations and battle plans were so important, so you wouldn't kill your own people.

 

So if you want your ranged to be able to do something in a fight with out shooting your own forces you need them on the high ground, the melee protects the high ground. This is basic combat.

 

I haven't seen a valid argue that says the current combat system cant support FF. Like what games do you play that have FF on? Shooter games where everyone is ranged? 

 

What "changes" do you think need to happen to make FF viable? Everything is targetted/directional/AoE controlled. What more do you need? 

 

Edit: I dont mean any of those questions to be challenging or aggressive, i really dont see how it wont be viable, im more interested in ideas of how to make it viable and why its not currently.

Edited by Vectious

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Also re: calls for moderation. 

 

C'mon kids, starting dealing with your own problems and grow some thicker skin... 

 

I didn't call for moderation, I simply stated that if there's enough people breaking the forum rules and attacking each other there's a chance they'll shut the whole conversation down and I don't think anybody wants that. Don't be so quick to be defensive. ;)

 

As for "11 months of them ignoring our warnings to them." ... I think you meant "MY warnings to them".

 

Did you ever stop and think they that heard you and just chose to focus on more important aspects of the game? Friendly-fire doesn't make or break the game ... I don't understand why it needs an 8 page thread.

Edited by Hook_PLGC

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Has anyone ever thought about why game developers force NDA's and are not transparent at all? Its because people have a tendency to go "BUT YOU SAID!!!!". Its a huge issue, you hope you can keep 90% of the promises during development but you generally hit around 60% mark.

 

My biggest disappointment in my gaming career  was Warhammer Online. The amount they promised people and the way they described things and what they ended up with was HEART breaking. And never along the way did they apologize or update things with realistic expectations, everyone was sort of left waiting for all the stuff they promised and then when they released they kept telling people its coming, its coming.

 

Look, you shouldnt promise something you cant keep and in a perfect world only evil greedy corrupt people would break promises, but we live in a real work with people that have the best and most honest intentions hit road blocks that are not viable to overcome and have to break a promise, it happens.

 

If you watch the videos they apologize when things dont happen exactly how they wanted. And they will tell you if something just isint going to work out. Dont be toxic about it. That solves nothing.

 

If its game breaking for you that we dont get something they originally promised im truly disappointed but i can promise you, they are even more disappointed because they dont get to keep you as a customer. But thats just life.

 

(Im not saying anything was exactly promised and im not saying they said absolutely no FF, just trying to look at it objectively)


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I didn't call for moderation, I simply stated that if there's enough people breaking the forum rules and attacking each other there's a chance they'll shut the whole conversation down and I don't think anybody wants that. Don't be so quick to be defensive. ;)

 

As for "11 months of them ignoring our warnings to them." ... I think you meant "MY warnings to them".

 

Did you ever stop and think they that heard you and just chose to focus on more important aspects of the game? Friendly-fire doesn't make or break the game ... I don't understand why it needs an 8 page thread.

 

Passionate devs and passionate players. That's all. Over 100,000 people registered to be a part of this community. The majority of them left. While we can debate til the cows home where each person went and why, most of those players registered before and during the kickstarter. They decided what was their breaking point and why they would leave. Shoot, one person literally left when they implemented hard currency instead of straight trading/bartering.

 

After the game was finalized on important and key features, the rest of us left were those who agreed with the majority of game design features. Friendly Fire was one of those features people were looking forward to. For some, that may be the straw that breaks the camel's back. For most, it's just a point of dissent that they'll get over.

 

But the thread should not be about whether someone is allowed to get upset about design changes or not. 90% of the suggestion box is a design change. People are allowed to have suggestions but not be upset about changes? Both are just as counterproductive but only one is counter-intuitive. As long as people's opinions are in line with the Rules of Conduct, then why can't someone vocalize their upset with game design? It's only when getting triggered and having a problem with one poster does things get out of hand. Attack the opinion, not the player.

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Just curious what games have you played that had FF ? Not saying what you described doesnt occur but from my experience it isnt the norm. Especially so in a guild based game.

Exactly.  FF for griefing purposes is only relevant in games that pre-determine and fix who are your "allies" and "enemies."  In Crowfall, where most of the CWs including the first ruleband (Dregs) your allies and enemies are chosen.  Therefore, your choice to PK your "teammates" is not that at all, it is actually redefining who are your allies and enemies.  You can only do so once in our guild, therefore, we are most definitely not subjected to "trolling" of this kind.

 

The most important impact of FF is on people who really truly are allies.  That is why it is such an anti-zerg mechanic, because people who do not want to hurt each other, do so, unless they are very coordinated (and even then it is almost never zero).

 

Oh, and a brief P.S. to ACE devs if they read this: please, do not do any sort of ridiculous flagging thing related to FF or just anything, good lord terrible mechanic.

Edited by mctan

Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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Oh, and a brief P.S. to ACE devs if they read this: please, do not do any sort of ridiculous flagging thing related to FF or just anything, good lord terrible mechanic.

 

I doubt ACE is going to read 8 pages of bickering, but if they do, you might need to explain what you mean by "ridiculous flagging thing."


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I doubt ACE is going to read 8 pages of bickering, but if they do, you might need to explain what you mean by "ridiculous flagging thing."

This exact conversation happened last year.  Have to agree with you that they aren't going to read through all of this again.

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I don't see how anyone who has tested this game could think friendly fire is a good idea. The combat is just not designed to support it. Unless it changes drastically I just don't see it working.

 

I played and immensely enjoyed Darkfall which had friendly fire. I also played and immensely enjoyed Shadowbane which didn't have friendly fire. These two games had very different combat systems though. Crowfall is somewhere between tab target like Shadowbane and FPS aim like Darkfall. There just isn't enough precision in the attacks in Crowfall to have friendly fire like Darkfall. Crowfall is more like Guild Wars 2 or Tera, both of which don't have friendly fire. 

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The simplest way they can effectively implement FF is with either guild or group immunity. You can be almost assured that FF will be disabled in the higher bands (Faction/Gods) because of trolling etc. 

 

On its face, FF right now would be a nightmare based on the current combat/powers design. While its easy to say that players will learn etc etc, it will most likely just result in all players going ranged, because melee cones would be next to impossible to contend with. I'm almost certain that every single melee skill in the game right now is cone based.

 

As others have said, FF is a great tool for combating zergs and does a lot to empower small groups of skilled players. Depending on the final size of group/raids it would be very easy to just give FF immunity to those people while leaving the rest of the guild exposed. This is exactly how SB did it.

 

If anti zerg is your primary concern there are other issues that need to be addressed, namely damage splitting and fps issues.

 

Personally I don't think that FFA FF is something that will work for this game, simply because the mechanics of combat as we see it now simply won't allow for decent numbers of melee players without the field turning into a blender.

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Passionate devs and passionate players. That's all. Over 100,000 people registered to be a part of this community. The majority of them left. While we can debate til the cows home where each person went and why, most of those players registered before and during the kickstarter. They decided what was their breaking point and why they would leave.

 

After the game was finalized on important and key features, the rest of us left were those who agreed with the majority of game design features. Friendly Fire was one of those features people were looking forward to.

 

Cmon now Headlight, if it was such a pivotal game design feature that the developers felt was important, they'd be talking it up every video.

They're not.

 

Why? No idea ... maybe they don't want to disappoint the percentage of people who were looking forward to having / not having it in place. Maybe they are focused (with blinders on) on the task at hand and don't want to muddy up the waters with sidebars.

 

Now then ... If 100,000 people registered to be a part of this community and 99,947 of them are 'missing', who is to say that they left because they reached a "breaking point"?

 

I 100% respect your right to state your opinion and post anything you'd like to say on the forums. I would never say otherwise. However, when I keep reading things like "the majority" and "they decided what their breaking point was" ... you're making HUGE assumptions about them even HAVING a breaking point.

 

Maybe 99,918 of them simply decided that they didn't want to read any more posts about friendly fire until October 18th, 2016? That's also a valid assumption.

 

You've obviously contributed a lot to these forums with your post count. I recognize that a lot of what you say has merit and is well thought out and carefully written. I thank you for your many contributions. However I think you would do yourself a solid by understanding that you speak for yourself and not suggesting that the silent thousands of other people who aren't responding in the forums secretly agree(d) with your opinion.

 

 

TL;DR: I speak for only me. Say no to Friendly Fire!

Edited by Hook_PLGC

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I dont mean to sound like a broken record but all i read is over generalization of "the current combat system just wont work for FF!" with no actual examples or situations that explain what you mean by this.

 

What do you want to be able to do that the system wont support? Is it because alot of things have a cleave effect? That will effectively make it that if you attack a single melee person with a team of 4 melee people you may actually end up doing more damage to each other then the one person? Good. That is exactly what i would expect from FF. Heck, if the single person is smart enough and uses the berserk rune he may end up taking all of them down with him as they try and beat through his berserk. In the end everyone dies.

 

If everyone fights like we currently fight which is just slam in to each other and hope for the best then yes, absolutely it would turn in to a  chaotic blender. Thats because FF is not turned on. You cant base how people throw themselves at each other with FF turned off with no actual care if they die and lose items or not that FF will just not work. That is the current style of play.

 

You have to look at the abilities, the pin point shots of rangers, the cleave of mym's the stomps of champions. Can all these be used situational with FF? Absolutely you just have to play careful. Some of these you absolutely dont want to use when you have allies near, is that wrong? Why? Its FF?

 

 

And anyway, we have actual body physics that wouldn't allow more than 3-4 people to surround and attack the same person.  I dont see how this is a bad thing.

 

Please give me some details examples of why it wont work in this current system and lets take a closer look at it, maybe we are looking at it from two different directions


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I doubt ACE is going to read 8 pages of bickering, but if they do, you might need to explain what you mean by "ridiculous flagging thing."

 

Pretty sure he means the ability to type /ffon or /ffoff and turn friendly fire on/off. Kinda like how people could "purple" in ArcheAge just to attack their own faction, etc.

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Knights will shine if FF is on

And maybe they should if that is the type of fight you are doing, right? 

 

If you want to disrupt formations you send in some Mym's, create that chaos before they hit the deck and die. You dont want to group them up of course they are made to AoE and disrupt and bleed.

 

Maybe you want melee to flank and sandwhich a group so you can shove 3 in a Mym to the front line and they cant get away from his blender skills. All the bleeds stack ouch, yummy. Maybe a legionare with their fast movement is the best for setting this up.

 

Or you make sure you create pocket groups of 5~  so FF is less of a issue and you keep up a mobile play style.


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And maybe they should if that is the type of fight you are doing, right? 

 

If you want to disrupt formations you send in some Mym's, create that chaos before they hit the deck and die. You dont want to group them up of course they are made to AoE and disrupt and bleed.

 

Maybe you want melee to flank and sandwhich a group so you can shove 3 in a Mym to the front line and they cant get away from his blender skills. All the bleeds stack ouch, yummy. Maybe a legionare with their fast movement is the best for setting this up.

 

Or you make sure you create pocket groups of 5~  so FF is less of a issue and you keep up a mobile play style.

 

I can understand where you're coming from - but I'm not positive how well that methodical / strategy style game would be received in a MMO. In a multiplayer RTS I can totally understand it working because you're in control of each your units and formations. In Crowfall, you'd be asking dozens / hundreds of people to follow orders / commands / strategy in some sort of VOIP ... and while I personally think that could be a lot of fun, I dunno if others would enjoy it.

 

I guess we'll wait and see what the devs have to say about the topic when they're ready.

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