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bahamutkaiser

So... how's that Friendly Fire going?

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I like to add in this core set rule friendly fire debate that you`ll have your Shadowbane ruleset with (group immunity). And I remember exactly what @Todd said related to the Shadowbane players and which campaign they should participate in, and @Todd pointed towards The Shadows campaign world which is outside the Dregs, because it was more guild related activity. Maybe The Shadows will be implemented after launch since ACE is focused at the Dregs campaign within the soft launch shcedule.

 

I`ve no doubts that the current combat powers will be easier to coordinate with group/guild immunities, but it`s indeed possible to use a (FFA - FF version) in the Dregs which is closest circle at the center of the hunger. And I thought @Vectious had an interesting twist about the discussion and be constructive - if u feel it won`t work and go into details of combat with our current Archetypes.  


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I can understand where you're coming from - but I'm not positive how well that methodical / strategy style game would be received in a MMO. In a multiplayer RTS I can totally understand it working because you're in control of each your units and formations. In Crowfall, you'd be asking dozens / hundreds of people to follow orders / commands / strategy in some sort of VOIP ... and while I personally think that could be a lot of fun, I dunno if others would enjoy it.

 

I guess we'll wait and see what the devs have to say about the topic when they're ready.

Exactly. And honestly i wouldn't want to have to be in that environment all the time, right? Hence why i have been drawn to the concept for campaigns and rule sets. Pick the one you feel like doing, after that you may need a break from FF.


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I doubt ACE is going to read 8 pages of bickering, but if they do, you might need to explain what you mean by "ridiculous flagging thing."

 

ACE reads everything. There is no escape.  ;)


Max Lancaster, ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.

Follow us on Twitter @crowfallgame | Like us on Facebook

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I think the biggest concern from the very beginning is that we could see where there would be problems flicking the FF switch "on", due to the skills and ability sets of the classes they are chosing to create. The fact that we're now further into developement and that the abilities being created are looking even messier in a FF environment is scary to us, since it gives the appearance that FF is being thrown under the bus. Again, the old arguement comes back, "Why waste time making a system that will fall apart/change completely when the FF switch is turned on?"

 

But who knows, I bet (hope and pray) that they have been internally testing FF this whole time and are waiting for a better time to turn it on for us to see, when it's more polished. Everything they show us is also going to be shown to a much larger audience, and they could scare away a lot of people showing a terrible looking combat experience. I remember idiots freaking out about the greyscale environment during the first Hunger Dome, I can barely imagine the kind of trolling and idiocy some footage of unpolished FF enabled slaughter would cause on the interwebs.

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Just curious what games have you played that had FF ? Not saying what you described doesnt occur but from my experience it isnt the norm. Especially so in a guild based game.

I don't think I played any that had FF, but it seems like something that matters. If you have experience and it isn't the norm, then I guess it's all good :)


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Guild Leader/ High Elder

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I wonder what people are going to say when (if)  FF is introduced and they still get plowed by "zergs".

 

I think people just have to realize that because something worked in another game, doesn't mean it will fit perfectly within the context of this one.

 

I thought unconditional FF worked great in DFO, but I wouldn't even waste time suggesting the same thing with Crowfall, especially with the current combat model.

 

ACE just needs to man up and say "You know what? We tried FF internally and it didn't jive with the combat we're going with, sorry".

 

People won't like that, but at least we won't have these "woulda, coulda, didn't" posts every few months asking for public floggings.

Edited by helix

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That's what the zerg says.

 

The zerg may lose a few more zerglings than it might have otherwise (to FF) but it still wins in the end. Don't kid yourself, the only factor which permits smaller groups to defeat a zerg is relative skill. If the larger force is just as organized and coordinated as a smaller force, the numbers disparity will prevail ten times out of ten. There's no getting around this, numbers will matter. We make the whole Zerg distinction because when a guild gets large quickly, they usually reached their recruitment goals by lowering their standards. Further, a large group of people who are all new to a community have problems coordinating where a tightly knit community can anticipate each others actions. There are cases where a large group can be tightly knit, experienced, coordinated and comfortable working together. When a force like that outnumbers you, its all ogre.

 

Looking at the dregs rulesets specifically, friendly fire is bound to occur. If it's anything like Shadowbane, friendly fire will be restricted within groups while even fellow guild mates will take FF damage if they are in a separate group. This is fine, as multiple groups of 6-10 should be able to operate in the same battlespace without stepping on each other too badly. If we're talking about enabling friendly fire between each individual avatar, then we're essentially making the game a nightmare to play- especially for melee characters.


Shadowbane - House Avari/Hy'shen
"Gimp elves get good elves killed." - Belina

Avari Discord - https://discord.gg/Bch24PV

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Let me ask a question that's sort of a side-step to FF, but perhaps (maybe) a little closer to a core issue to me:

 

  • How is point-and-shoot ranged feeling?  Take away for the moment the idea of Friendly Fire.

 

Running around, people ducking and weaving.  Does it feel reasonable at max range, then mid range, then close range?  Can you hit your targets?


“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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I like to add in this core set rule friendly fire debate that you`ll have your Shadowbane ruleset with (group immunity). And I remember exactly what @Todd said related to the Shadowbane players and which campaign they should participate in, and @Todd pointed towards The Shadows campaign world which is outside the Dregs, because it was more guild related activity. Maybe The Shadows will be implemented after launch since ACE is focused at the Dregs campaign within the soft launch shcedule.

 

I`ve no doubts that the current combat powers will be easier to coordinate with group/guild immunities, but it`s indeed possible to use a (FFA - FF version) in the Dregs which is closest circle at the center of the hunger. And I thought @Vectious had an interesting twist about the discussion and be constructive - if u feel it won`t work and go into details of combat with our current Archetypes.  

 

JTodd recently said that the Shadows/Dregs would likely be combined into a single band because it most closely represents the SB type environment.

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I can understand where you're coming from - but I'm not positive how well that methodical / strategy style game would be received in a MMO. 

 

Actually in Darkfall Unholy Wars (DF2) it worked just fine and that game more closely resembled Crowfall because of the greater variety of utilities and powers available. 

 

One ability specific to the Baresark (basically a melee class) was a whirlwind aoe that sent everyone flying away, blinded, with big damage. When two large forces were distracted by each other, I would go in with this ability and penetrate deep behind enemy lines, pop this off, and throw their back lines into chaos as they scrambled to hit me in the middle of them. Using this while still next to other friendlies, however, would earn me a channel-full of "god damn it vucar".

 

Vectious is right about at least one thing: good players will adapt, learn not to use their massive melee cones if friendlies are nearby, or else they need to be extremely confident in their accuracy. Bad players would not learn. They would continue to mosh-pit melee, kill their friends, and throw AOE heals on their enemies and friends alike.

 

You don't need hundreds to participate in the same Voip to know not to melee someone already engaged in melee, or to not use aoe ranged attacks on someone close to friendlies. That said, those who do follow larger organized groups split into different channels and follow siege commander calls for "focus ranged aoes at the east gate now" will benefit greatly, while the masses of zergs without leadership will suffer.

 

This promotes coordination and teamwork, and it punishes mindless mobbing. 

 

As to the question of "what about the current game won't work with FF?", thats the million dollar question. What has already been buffed that wouldn't need buffing if FF was on? What has been nerfed already that wouldn't need nerfing if FF showed us how situational it really was? How many changes to combat balancing have been made that need to be un-made in light of FF?

 

Its the unknown unknowns. The things we don't know that we don't know. These are the things that keep me up at night. (not really)

Edited by vucar

aka honeybear

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Actually in Darkfall Unholy Wars (DF2) it worked just fine and that game more closely resembled Crowfall because of the greater variety of utilities and powers available. 

 

One ability specific to the Baresark (basically a melee class) was a whirlwind aoe that sent everyone flying away, blinded, with big damage. When two large forces were distracted by each other, I would go in with this ability and penetrate deep behind enemy lines, pop this off, and throw their back lines into chaos as they scrambled to hit me in the middle of them. Using this while still next to other friendlies, however, would earn me a channel-full of "god damn it vucar".

 

Vectious is right about at least one thing: good players will adapt, learn not to use their massive melee cones if friendlies are nearby, or else they need to be extremely confident in their accuracy. Bad players would not learn. They would continue to mosh-pit melee, kill their friends, and throw AOE heals on their enemies and friends alike.

 

You don't need hundreds to participate in the same Voip to know not to melee someone already engaged in melee, or to not use aoe ranged attacks on someone close to friendlies. That said, those who do follow larger organized groups split into different channels and follow siege commander calls for "focus ranged aoes at the east gate now" will benefit greatly, while the masses of zergs without leadership will suffer.

 

This promotes coordination and teamwork, and it punishes mindless mobbing. 

 

As to the question of "what about the current game won't work with FF?", thats the million dollar question. What has already been buffed that wouldn't need buffing if FF was on? What has been nerfed already that wouldn't need nerfing if FF showed us how situational it really was? How many changes to combat balancing have been made that need to be un-made in light of FF?

 

Its the unknown unknowns. The things we don't know that we don't know. These are the things that keep me up at night. (not really)

Now that is a relevant point to make, balancing dynamic may change with FF. I can get behind that point completely.

 

But i try to take this perspective, they have mentioned a few times in videos that the ruleset and restrictions in campaigns will be pretty big. They even mentioned archtype restriction. That is a HUGE commitment to a idea of rolesets. Completely locking out classes? What if all your (non-subscriber) archetype training is in one archetype.

 

What i am trying to push at is these campaigns and rulesets need to force us to consider things differently. Why cant a FF ruleset come along with its own unique balance changes? I think that is why they are not overly worried about trying to balance things like FF to the combat system when theres alot of other issues with it.


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Has anyone ever thought about why game developers force NDA's and are not transparent at all? Its because people have a tendency to go "BUT YOU SAID!!!!". Its a huge issue, you hope you can keep 90% of the promises during development but you generally hit around 60% mark.

True. But that's not what happened here. That's just what a select few backers keep saying happened, over and over.

 

I'm dead shocked this thread is still going. FF options have been talked to death so many times on these forums that the only interesting thing about this thread is how far backers will go to push an agenda.

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I also played and immensely enjoyed Shadowbane which didn't have friendly fire. 

Shadowbane did actually have FF, and not a tiny amount of it. It just used it very selectively, which also makes great sense here to me.

 

I agree with your post 100% otherwise, btw. The reasonableness it conveyed seems out of place here.

 

edit:

  • all Fury AoEs
  • all Channie AoEs
  • Sentinel big bomb
  • Stormlord AoE (Call Storm)
  • One of the Wizard PBAoE AoEs Word of Power maybe?
  • All Thief and Black Mask Backstab AoEs (Coughing Gas, etc.)
  • All Assassin AoEs

There were a few more, but I can't recall them fight now.

Edited by coolwaters

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Oops, well that escalated quickly.

 

Where to start? Well J Todd said FF would be in, and somewhat present in all modes, get a sleuth to dig it up for you if you like. ACE also made a bunch of back pedaling remarks afterward, being insincere doesn't win any awards though, it just demonstrates unreliability.

 

"Should it be more strategic?" They said it was a strategy game more so than an action game too, to an audience that probably stopped participating already due to their demonstration thus far.

 

"It won't work here". You bet it won't, and ACE doesn't have the talent to make a system it would work in. I'm not going to argue the practicality of shoe horning in FF with this sloppy system, it was heavily discussed during Kickstarter, and alarms were raised during initial play testing asking WTH is up with combat and FF, and we were told to wait.

 

Wait until now, where we know we aren't getting what we were offered, and at this point it's fraud.

 

Saying "maybe I'll be faithful" to your spouse some time after you've vowed to be faithful doesn't absolve you if your previous promise, nor does it make it less offensive when you cheat, saying maybe alone is offensive if you made a commitment.

 

And ACE made a lot of commitments during their advertisement campaign, dismissing anything and everything they fail to deliver as changed during production isn't dignified. It's all the way down to their original FAQ for the game, real physics, projectile collision, friendly fire, and more.

 

Fixating yourself with what they're engulfed in now doesn't absolve them of these statements.

 

Friendly Fire belongs in this game, the only reason I don't expect it from them is because I don't think they're talented enough to accomplish it. It can be done, right, and not some trash tack on with no design implementation, but not by ACE, I'm not even seeing a level of quality such as Wildstar or Tera which they imagined to imitate. And those don't have many of the features solicited by ACE, those games couldn't even include these features.

 

They can either admit they aren't/can't do it, or they can pull some BS and apply it in some ungodly fashion and pretend they've fulfilled their claim, either way they've failed.

 

But shame on me for trusting Todd, the same guy who said their art was an accurate representation of what they'd have in game, a week before admitting that the Centaur jousting a knight art was not actually part of the game. Psh wings?, why would you even imagine they'd include flight, silly me right? Just life it was silly to think Centaur would be a DPS >.>

 

It's kinda like, he'd say anything to get a sale. #No Man's Lie

 

So what do I care right, I got no reason to be here and disapprove right? You must be joking right? Everyone here paid for this game already, premium, to support production and fund it. Money collected, on lies.

 

But hey, "things will change in development", working excuse for everything they fail to do. Betcha the cost doesn't change :-/

 

Remember your excuses when your expected features are cut, at least No Man's Sky wasn't Kickstarted.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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 Well J Todd said FF would be in, and somewhat present in all modes, get a sleuth to dig it up for you if you like. ACE also made a bunch of back pedaling remarks afterward, being insincere doesn't win any awards though, it just demonstrates unreliability.

...

Wait until now, where we know we aren't getting what we were offered, and at this point it's fraud.

 

Saying "maybe I'll be faithful" to your spouse some time after you've vowed to be faithful doesn't absolve you if your previous promise, nor does it make it less offensive when you cheat, saying maybe alone is offensive if you made a commitment.

...

Fixating yourself with what they're engulfed in now doesn't absolve them of these statements.

...

But shame on me for trusting Todd, the same guy who said their art was an accurate representation of what they'd have in game, a week before admitting that the Centaur jousting a knight art was not actually part of the game. Psh wings?, why would you even imagine they'd include flight, silly me right? Just life it was silly to think Centaur would be a DPS >.>

 

 

See, you're making things up again Arnold.

 

And no, I'm not going to search for nonexistent evidence of a nonexistent promise you keep parroting was made to you.

 

Your post is accusatory and ridiculous. Lol @ fraud. You don't even know what that word means, clearly.

 

edit: I underlined the only remotely accurate and sensible portion of your post.

Edited by coolwaters

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