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Naur

YACRT (Yet Another Combat Rant Topic)

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So for people that like mmos Revelation Online is the next coming thing in next month.

I won't write anything about that game other then about Combat, since it's Crowfall forums after all.

 

So, it has action combat. Not the best one(since there are lock on skills like Tera and I  don't like those), but fairly good one.

Thing is I have played it on CN server (I live in EU) and had around 500-800 ping depending on time of day.

 

And you know what ?

 

It's smoother then CW on 80 ping. Combat with 1 sec delay is smoother then no delay combat in CW.

After playing that game I once again realized how slow, dull and boring CW combat is.

 

 

//rant off

 

Fix it here please :)

Just let players move on almost all skills without that annoying root.

Or make everything 1,5 faster ( animations and movement)

Or look into any of 1001 topics about how combat is bad and how could be improved.

 

PLEASE don't hold onto that rooted-slow combat you have, just please :)

 

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From the Revelation online FAQ:

 

"Revelation Online is developed by NetEase, second largest gaming company in China, official operator of Blizzard Entertainment’s games in the region as well as producer of some of China’s most renowned and longest running online PC-client games. This experience has allowed NetEase to take a high-quality approach to developing and supporting its own projects as well as understanding which features appeal to European and American players of MMO titles."

 

I am guessing they have a few more people than ACE, and have a MUCH larger budget.  So yes, my guess is combat does feel very smooth cause they have been able to pump many more man hours at it.  I am also going to bet that a bunch of the calculations are going to be client side, so it will be easy to hack.

 

You can not compare the product of a 20 man team who has been working on it a little over a year to a product of the second largest gaming company in China (that has been working on it how long?) and think it will be any where near the same level.

Edited by destrin

"Float like a Butterfly.... Sting like a Misplaced Decimal Point" - Xarrayne 2018

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Fix it here please :)

Just let players move on almost all skills without that annoying root.

Or make everything 1,5 faster ( animations and movement)

Or look into any of 1001 topics about how combat is bad and how could be improved.

 

PLEASE don't hold onto that rooted-slow combat you have, just please :)

 

OK   Will do.

 

P.S. NetEase is (IMO) the most experienced and highest quality MMO developer in China.  I'm not surprised Blizzard chose to work with them based on my own due diligence.


Gordon Walton, ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.  [Rules of Conduct]

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Revelation does a lot on the client side which leads to a good sum of hacks which are already available (not as bad as ArcheAge) but well, while CF does some things (not sure how much) at the server side. 

 

Next is the fact with the physics. Not sure if Revelation actually integrates physics or better said - not sure to what extend. 

 

Lastly - from my (very few) contacts with Revelation Online many skills seem to be AoE orientated which also improves the feeling of having a less restrictive combat system. Not sure whether this is true or not but from what I've seen so far it should be that way. 

Edited by Thyr

You get the wolves...lots of wolves...and sheep that wear armor and have developed an appetite for blood soaked grass - dubanka

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 I am also going to bet that a bunch of the calculations are going to be client side, so it will be easy to hack.

 

pretty mutch why we have the rooted combat i think. atm with the current tec its not possible to provide 100% sever side input checks and smooth combat like Black desert. Thats why black desert did / does have a large problem with hackers. They made pretty mutch every key information client side so you had people with wall hacks , no skill cooldown hacks, no hp / mp use on skill hack and offcourse the speed hack while doing world bosses in puplic and in the PVP.

 

Its a bit hard to explain why rooted combat is tied to this but i belive it gives the sever more time to check and makes shure that every player is in full sync with each other ( thats the second thing art craft said. Full sever side check and no desync.)

To go more into it:

You use a skill -> you are rooted in the animation for 0,5 - 2 sek ( depending on skill ) and cant do anything else while doing that. -> so "i used X skill" info is send to the sever and from the sever send to all clients who have permision to get that info ( everyone around you in visible range).

This offcourse applys to everything you do and everything the others around you does. Every little thing so after it is confirmed that you used skill X the severs knows that you will be locked to the animation and doesnt need to check again for that time.

Lets jump here to combat like in Black desert where you have combo cancel and split second movement changes.

In a PVP match the sever gets constant new information from you ( around 2 - 5 actions per second ( cast lightning -> lightning explosion -> meteor -> turn around -> cast frost bolt)with instant cast active i think 5 or more where even possible)

Remember that everything you send has a delay to the other party (the desync problem in every MMO) This means to keep the players sync the sever guesses your next input and send the gues to the other players around you based on your last input  and correct his gues on the next input.

To give you an example:

You run straight forward away from an enemy and then hit A to get around a corner but die anyway. It looks to you the enemy shoot trough the wall but he didnt on his screen you where still running straight. Another posebility is that on his screen he hit you and then you disapear ( teleport) around the corner because the your A input got to the sever befor the "i killed him " input from your enemy got it.

 

While this problem does rarely arise at 1 on 1 it get worse the more players are present while with rooted combat you have conformation that the guy you are facing is really doing that action right now.

 

Its still pre alpha so its still rough around the edges. That beeing said it gets better with each patch and for me the combat is ok.

Remember that death has a very large consequense here so combat needs to be slow or the entire game will be just who hits the other first to win the fight, like end game BDO was to a point and that would not be fun.


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Its still pre alpha so its still rough around the edges. That beeing said it gets better with each patch and for me the combat is ok.

Remember that death has a very large consequense here so combat needs to be slow or the entire game will be just who hits the other first to win the fight, like end game BDO was to a point and that would not be fun.

 

That's exactly how I feel. Death in the CW will matter, it will not be the case of just re-spawning. Your armour will degrade, your inventory may get looted and you may have to find another body to inhabit. So yes I think the combat fights should take longer with more counters, blocks and escapes available.

 

I'm not going to get into the whole 'rooted motion' or 'combo sucks' debate but I think we haven't seen yet how complex the combat could be with the addition of disciplines and  promotional classes.


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OK   Will do.

 

P.S. NetEase is (IMO) the most experienced and highest quality MMO developer in China.  I'm not surprised Blizzard chose to work with them based on my own due diligence.

 

And dolphin mounts...WE NEED THESE.

 

Remember, I'm watching you....

 

 

P.S. Still watching, still fiending for the dolphin mounts.

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Root motion issues could be resolved by making the collision boxes stickier.  If I miss because my reticle is a hair off, so be it.  But don't carry me past my opponent unless the reticle is way offline (like 45 degrees).   

 

The problem isn't with the baked in motion; it's with the ridiculous lurching combat we get as people get carried past their targets.  If my targeting is 100% accurate, but my opponent misses, he gets carried past me, which sucks just as much for me as it does for him.

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I am pretty sure ACE has repeatedly say they are not happy with the combat system themselves and have been focusing on it to improve.

 

They are owning up to the issues and are committed to making a great game, stop beating a dead horse!


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Well if games of Bless caliber can decide to redevelop combat due to player base feedback, it certainly can be done. (I do hope succesfuly for sake of Bless)

Also no one is asking about from-scratch redevelop if it's not possible for ACE. But tweaking things like : AoE tax, ranged archetypes = turrets, no movement with skill, speed of animations, range cap etc. is I hope within ACE knobing power ;)

Edited by Naur

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Root motion issues could be resolved by making the collision boxes stickier.  If I miss because my reticle is a hair off, so be it.  But don't carry me past my opponent unless the reticle is way offline (like 45 degrees).   

 

The problem isn't with the baked in motion; it's with the ridiculous lurching combat we get as people get carried past their targets.  If my targeting is 100% accurate, but my opponent misses, he gets carried past me, which sucks just as much for me as it does for him.

Which causes everyone to skip around the battlefield as they desperately try to connect with their attacks. This is the main issue with root motions.

 

I'd honestly prefer split body (run up to target, use my ability) over the baked in movement, but that ain't gonna happen unless soft launch comes around and there is a massive outcry.

Edited by helix

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Well if games of Bless caliber can decide to redevelop combat due to player base feedback, it certainly can be done. (I do hope succesfuly for sake of Bless)

Also no one is asking about from-scratch redevelop if it's not possible for ACE. But tweaking things like : AoE tax, ranged archetypes = turrets, no movement with skill, speed of animations, range cap etc. is I hope within ACE knobing power ;)

 

Bless has been in development for even longer. I remember hearing about Bless when Rift was still pay to play.


"Float like a Butterfly.... Sting like a Misplaced Decimal Point" - Xarrayne 2018

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From the Revelation online FAQ:

 

"Revelation Online is developed by NetEase, second largest gaming company in China, official operator of Blizzard Entertainment’s games in the region as well as producer of some of China’s most renowned and longest running online PC-client games. This experience has allowed NetEase to take a high-quality approach to developing and supporting its own projects as well as understanding which features appeal to European and American players of MMO titles."

 

I am guessing they have a few more people than ACE, and have a MUCH larger budget. 

Money and resources have nothing to do with this at all.

 

ACE already solved the problem the OP is talking about and then ruined it again

 

Back in May when they did split-body animations, this improved combat significantly in its flow. Graphically it wasn't the prettiest but functionally it was far superior.

 

Then a bunch of terribads complained they couldn't keep up, and it "looked funny", and it was "too fast", and so ACE in their infinite wisdom reverted back to rooted combat for some ungodly reason.

Edited by vucar

aka honeybear

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Money has nothing to do with this at all.

 

ACE already solved the problem the OP is talking about and then ruined it again

 

Back in May when they did split-body animations, this improved combat significantly in its flow. Graphically it wasn't the prettiest but functionally it was far superior.

 

Then a bunch of terribads complained they couldn't keep up, and it "looked funny", and it was "too fast", and so ACE in their infinite wisdom reverted back to rooted combat for some ungodly reason.

 

I disagree. Split body sucks.  Anim locks were always planned, since KS, split body was a work around so they could test some thing.  Just cause you and few of the other loud people dislike anim locks/root motion does not mean split body is superior in any way.


"Float like a Butterfly.... Sting like a Misplaced Decimal Point" - Xarrayne 2018

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Yeah I remember thinking of how amazing the knight's left click attack felt with split body.

 

Who gives a poorly made socks if the root motion adds "weight" to the feel of big classes like Myrmidon? It adds "weight" to the entire combat system to where it feels slow and clunky. 

 

I hope they either find a way to very drastically improve root motion or scrap it for split body. 

 

Combat will literally make or break this game. ACE knows this so I'm confident they will step up and fix it.

Edited by blazzen

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Yeah I remember thinking of how amazing the knight's left click attack felt with split body.

 

Who gives a poorly made socks if the root motion adds "weight" to the feel of big classes like Myrmidon? It adds "weight" to the entire combat system to where it feels slow and clunky. 

 

I hope they either find a way to very drastically improve root motion or scrap it for split body. 

 

Combat will literally make or break this game. ACE knows this so I'm confident they will step up and fix it.

 

I have faith they will get the root motion/anim lock system working well and smooth.  Split body is just so, meh IMO.  I think the people that are having trouble adjusting to the current state are the ones complaining the most.  It also really doesn't help that the constant hitching it makes it really easy to miss people.

 

I hopped on a melee character last night for a couple of games and it really isn't that bad.  I don't see it anyways.  However, i would be able to move left or right when i attack rather than reticule facing all the time.

 

ACE has said many times, combat is their #1 priority, I don't think that has changed.


"Float like a Butterfly.... Sting like a Misplaced Decimal Point" - Xarrayne 2018

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