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Naur

YACRT (Yet Another Combat Rant Topic)

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Root motion issues could be resolved by making the collision boxes stickier.  If I miss because my reticle is a hair off, so be it.  But don't carry me past my opponent unless the reticle is way offline (like 45 degrees).   

 

The problem isn't with the baked in motion; it's with the ridiculous lurching combat we get as people get carried past their targets.  If my targeting is 100% accurate, but my opponent misses, he gets carried past me, which sucks just as much for me as it does for him.

I can only make a guess on why we go past our target.  The issue has to do with Unity and raycasting.  When the raycast misses a target capsule, then it goes until the ray is told to stop.  Since the ray is a straight line, you have to be on the hitbox of the target or the ray won't hit anything.

 

Visually I'm trying to think how they could fix it to be "stickier", without out adding a lot of complicated calculations.  Because cones are not very efficient, or even possible (to my knowledge) with raycasting, the only thing I can come up with is have 3 raycasts.  The first ray comes from the center like it is currently, if that hits an object then you move to the target as expected.  If for some reason you are slightly off, and the center ray doesn't find anything then a 2nd and 3rd ray is cast just to the left and right of the original reticles ray (spaced 1m to either side).  If either the 2nd or 3rd ray pick up an object then you are moved to where that target is, but you move along the original raycasts path.  Using the 3 rays with a simple coroutine would create a stickier target and solve the issue of sliding past other players; but I don't know how much more that would tax the server due to adding 2 additional ray checks.

 

As a point of interest, I wonder if they are using capsules or boxes for player hitboxes; because my tests and a few others have shown that capsules are way more efficient than boxes.  I might even recommend an optimization of capsules for things like the druids lighting etc.

Edited by Teufel

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I can only make a guess on why we go past our target.  The issue has to do with Unity and raycasting.  When the raycast misses a target capsule, then it goes until the ray is told to stop.  Since the ray is a straight line, you have to be on the hitbox of the target or the ray won't hit anything.

 

Visually I'm trying to think how they could fix it to be "stickier", without out adding a lot of complicated calculations.  Because cones are not very efficient, or even possible (to my knowledge) with raycasting, the only thing I can come up with is have 3 raycasts.  The first ray comes from the center like it is currently, if that hits an object then you move to the target as expected.  If for some reason you are slightly off, and the center ray doesn't find anything then a 2nd and 3rd ray is cast just to the left and right of the original reticles ray.  If either the 2nd or 3rd ray pick up an object then you are moved to where that target is, but you move along the original raycasts path.  Using the 3 rays with a simple coroutine would create a stickier target and solve the issue of sliding past other players; but I don't know how much more that would tax the server due to adding 2 additional ray checks.

 

As a point of interest, I wonder if they are using capsules or boxes for player hitboxes; because my tests and a few others have shown that capsules are way more efficient than boxes.  I might even recommend an optimization of capsules for things like the druids lighting etc.

 

Interesting - but we already have character collision and body blocking, apart from attacks.  Could that system not be used to prevent sliding past without the additional cost involved with extra raycasting?

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Interesting - but we already have character collision and body blocking, apart from attacks.  Could that system not be used to prevent sliding past without the additional cost involved with extra raycasting?

Yes, they could code for the player hitbox to collide with player hitbox; the question would be what would perform better.  Raycasts are quite simple and easy to calculate for the server; it's just a straight ray into an object.  Hitbox on hitbox may be a longer calculation; but if we are talking 100ms vs 150ms then no big deal, however if we are talking 100ms to 500ms then that adds up. (These values are not reflective of actual in game values and are used as examples)

 

Currently, it is my guess, that they are using a raycast, but they may be doing something different.  That's one of the beauties of coding in C#.

 

*Edit* Actually you raise a really interesting point; why are we sliding past, if each player has a hitbox?  Are the hitboxes too small?  Again without knowing how they designed the system I can only guess at using the simplest means to move the player forward and why we would be sliding past.  If using a raycast, then the code may "ignore" the hitboxes until the player has moved to the destination determined by the raycast; that being a target that was hit, or the max distance they have coded for moving forward.

 

I would be interested to hear from a dev on how off I am. :D

Edited by Teufel

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I have faith they will get the root motion/anim lock system working well and smooth. Split body is just so, meh IMO. I think the people that are having trouble adjusting to the current state are the ones complaining the most. It also really doesn't help that the constant hitching it makes it really easy to miss people.

 

I hopped on a melee character last night for a couple of games and it really isn't that bad. I don't see it anyways. However, i would be able to move left or right when i attack rather than reticule facing all the time.

 

ACE has said many times, combat is their #1 priority, I don't think that has changed.

In a perfect world, CF combat would look more like For Honor or Dark Souls. I don't think combat needs to be bombastic fast, but it does need to feel and be more responsive. I don't like how root motion feel, and it's pale in comparison to the split body we had. I remember people actually praising the split body changes on knight, legionnaire and champion. I haven't seen anything that even resembles that praise with root motions. Remember when they changed it so you can move while blocking? That was a big deal and people liked it. In fact there is a poll up (while poll opinions aren't the be-all end-all, they do say something) that display vigorous DISLIKE for root motions in its current iteration.

 

The fact we're still talking about the state of combat should be a clear indicator there is something very wrong with it.

 

I've been winning matches like crazy in HD with the myrmidon, the root motions don't impair me at all, but that doesn't mean they're not terrible. Combat in CF is UGLY and sloppy as custard. Flailing/skipping around the battlefield looks WAY worse than anything split-body might offer. I'm okay with animation lock (although I think it shouldn't be used on EVERYTHING); I'd prefer the rockem-sockem combat we had 9 months ago over what we have now.

Edited by helix

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I think the combat needs to be sped up to create a higher skill-ceiling.  I think ACE once said they need to figure out when something isn't working and adjust quickly because they don't have unlimited funds... some of the current combat ideas need to be scrapped. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I wonder when human evolution will develop a natural resistance to click bait. I'm just generally tired of Crowfall haters that have no concept of what it takes to make an mmo leaving rude comments attacking developers for this or that. It's pretty simple, if the game isn't going the way you want it, leave a constructive comment with your issues and at least an attempt at realistic solution and then give the poor people time. Todd has said about 100 times that they're currently iterating on 99% of your complaints.

 

Take a chill people bros. Go play some other games to soothe your ADHD. Get a Masters degree in a related field and apply to ACE. Grow up a little.

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I wonder when human evolution will develop a natural resistance to click bait. I'm just generally tired of Crowfall haters that have no concept of what it takes to make an mmo leaving rude comments attacking developers for this or that. It's pretty simple, if the game isn't going the way you want it, leave a constructive comment with your issues and at least an attempt at realistic solution and then give the poor people time. Todd has said about 100 times that they're currently iterating on 99% of your complaints.

 

Take a chill people bros. Go play some other games to soothe your ADHD. Get a Masters degree in a related field and apply to ACE. Grow up a little.

You don't have to participate in the thread if you don't like it. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I wonder when human evolution will develop a natural resistance to click bait. I'm just generally tired of Crowfall haters that have no concept of what it takes to make an mmo leaving rude comments attacking developers for this or that. It's pretty simple, if the game isn't going the way you want it, leave a constructive comment with your issues and at least an attempt at realistic solution and then give the poor people time. Todd has said about 100 times that they're currently iterating on 99% of your complaints.

 

Take a chill people bros. Go play some other games to soothe your ADHD. Get a Masters degree in a related field and apply to ACE. Grow up a little.

 

I'm not seeing the rudeness to be honest, at least not in the OPs case. Abrasive? Perhaps, but not rude.

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I'll be very curious as to how everyone feels about this issue once combat is experienced in a more contextual setting to the end game here. The persistent tests may feel great re combat, depending on performance.

 

Or it may feel as choppy and sluggish as it sometimes does in SP and HD. To me it mostly comes down to performance.

 

That doesn't address what I see as a stagnated sense of diversity in terms of character building and progression, but I'm not convinced that those systems have really been developed yet. I think (pray) that these truly "minimal" and barely "viable" powers are only the tip of the character building iceberg.

Edited by coolwaters

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I think the combat needs to be sped up to create a higher skill-ceiling.  I think ACE once said they need to figure out when something isn't working and adjust quickly because they don't have unlimited funds... some of the current combat ideas need to be scrapped. 

I completely agree.

 

I think in theory of slowing things down to allow people to "react" was a good idea. But thats only realistic in small scale engagements, if you have 2-3 people on you, you cant react, its just not happening so dont create a system to be able to react on a 1v1 basis. Because things are not scaled for 1v1 anyway so speed things up, allow me to fire out my abilities and put them in cooldown so i can dodge around after using an ability.

Edited by Vectious

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I am pretty sure ACE has repeatedly say they are not happy with the combat system themselves and have been focusing on it to improve.

 

They are owning up to the issues and are committed to making a great game, stop beating a dead horse!

 

The whole purpose of the game is to beat a horse until it's dead....

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I'll be very curious as to how everyone feels about this issue once combat is experienced in a more contextual setting to the end game here. The persistent tests may feel great re combat, depending on performance.

 

What are you even talking about. How does a sever staying online for more than 2hrs make combat feel any different?

 

Bad is bad, clunky, choppy, annoying, slow, low skill ceiling... NONE of that will change just because you can play at 2am as opposed to 8pm

Edited by Ziz

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With more time to practice you might Get Good™ and then the combat wouldn't seem quite as bad.

 

 

Funny, I always thought any one who didn't see how bad the combat is, was obviously a terrible player them self.

 

Like idiots who think beats by Dre are good headphones or that damage splitting is good! LOL

 

Blind leading the blind it seems.

 

 

But hey, you guys are so good you refuse to play without your perfect 6 man group. God forbid you have to go against a group of pugs who dont have voice coms. 

 

You're clearly the experts.

Edited by Ziz

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I don't understand why people like split body. It always ends up the same with people running around slapping each other constantly instead of setting up their abilities with skill and timing. The complexity of a TERA duel is 10x higher than split body games like GW2. In TERA you're constantly looking to set up and land big damage and avoid getting caught in a bad spot, while in GW2 you just spam crap non-stop because you really can't avoid it when your enemy moves just as fast as you do and can attack while moving.

 

Crowfall's system does need work and it's not going to feel good until they get closer to that ideal but that's not a reason to abandon it and implement a crappy split body system. Well implemented 'root motion' combat is simply better, more skillful and more fun. Dark Souls, TERA, Dragon Nest, and so on are good examples. Try them to a reasonable level (that means not quiting at level 10 when you have 3 abilities on a class that has 30 at high level) and I think you will see why ACE is going the direction they are instead of settling for a just a mediocre system.


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I don't understand why people like split body. It always ends up the same with people running around slapping each other constantly instead of setting up their abilities with skill and timing. The complexity of a TERA duel is 10x higher than split body games like GW2. In TERA you're constantly looking to set up and land big damage and avoid getting caught in a bad spot, while in GW2 you just spam crap non-stop because you really can't avoid it when your enemy moves just as fast as you do and can attack while moving.

 

Crowfall's system does need work and it's not going to feel good until they get closer to that ideal but that's not a reason to abandon it and implement a crappy split body system. Well implemented 'root motion' combat is simply better, more skillful and more fun. Dark Souls, TERA, Dragon Nest, and so on are good examples. Try them to a reasonable level (that means not quiting at level 10 when you have 3 abilities on a class that has 30 at high level) and I think you will see why ACE is going the direction they are instead of settling for a just a mediocre system.

This. Would rather they take longer to get it working then go with the "easy" route.

 

plus, IMO it just looks bad. Your waist and legs are moving forward yet your torso is pointed at a 90 degree to the side or even more. It most games they get away with it because they flood the screen in particle effects to mask it.

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I don't understand why people like split body. It always ends up the same with people running around slapping each other constantly instead of setting up their abilities with skill and timing. The complexity of a TERA duel is 10x higher than split body games like GW2. In TERA you're constantly looking to set up and land big damage and avoid getting caught in a bad spot, while in GW2 you just spam crap non-stop because you really can't avoid it when your enemy moves just as fast as you do and can attack while moving.

 

Crowfall's system does need work and it's not going to feel good until they get closer to that ideal but that's not a reason to abandon it and implement a crappy split body system. Well implemented 'root motion' combat is simply better, more skillful and more fun. Dark Souls, TERA, Dragon Nest, and so on are good examples. Try them to a reasonable level (that means not quiting at level 10 when you have 3 abilities on a class that has 30 at high level) and I think you will see why ACE is going the direction they are instead of settling for a just a mediocre system.

Tera is more free form in terms of movement than crowfall. I would love if crowfall emulated the combat of Tera instead of what we have now, but that's not the case. Edited by helix

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What are you even talking about. How does a sever staying online for more than 2hrs make combat feel any different?

 

Bad is bad, clunky, choppy, annoying, slow, low skill ceiling... NONE of that will change just because you can play at 2am as opposed to 8pm

I thought it was obvious, but I expect that the CW will be large. Larger than HD. Larger than SP.

 

I expect players to be spread out more. I expect performance to be substantially better for those reasons and because optimization will presumably be pursued between now and then to some degree.

 

I expect that with better performance the combat will feel substantially better.

 

/spoonfeeding 

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