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Naur

YACRT (Yet Another Combat Rant Topic)

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Tera is more free form in terms of movement than crowfall. I would love if crowfall emulated the combat of Tera instead of what we have now, but that's not the case.

 

Yeah, I agree that what we have now is clunky and doesn't feel good. But it was my understanding that they wanted to move toward TERA style melee combat and just haven't gotten there yet.

 

If they thought the current system was good then I would be more on board with moving to a split body system, but they've said they're not happy with where things are and intend to continue improving it.


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I thought it was obvious, but I expect that the CW will be large. Larger than HD. Larger than SP.

 

I expect players to be spread out more. I expect performance to be substantially better for those reasons and because optimization will presumably be pursued between now and then to some degree.

 

I expect that with better performance the combat will feel substantially better.

 

/spoonfeeding 

 

So you're saying your great big hope is that there are so few people around it helps you on your potato pc and crappy game performance... Congrats, set your expectations real high.

 

Every MMO I play, DAOC, Warhammer Online, Guildwars2, Elder Scrolls Online with keep sieges always have HUNDREDS of people at keep battles. 

 

But yeah, no more than 4 on screen at a time will help. But then you'll never win because you wont have your premade vs pug group?! You must be very conflicted.

 

/tryagain


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I just don't get why we're not allowed to complain. People will scream to the heavens that we're in Pre-Genesis, but god forbid we complain about anything that's not finished. Guess my parents didn't love me enough to give me sunshine enemas on the tip of a unicorn's horn so I would be all positive all the time.

 

I will at least concede that until performance gets where it needs to be, we can't definitively say combat sucks.

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So you're saying your great big hope is that there are so few people around it helps you on your potato pc and crappy game performance... Congrats, set your expectations real high.

 

Every MMO I play, DAOC, Warhammer Online, Guildwars2, Elder Scrolls Online with keep sieges always have HUNDREDS of people at keep battles. 

 

But yeah, no more than 4 on screen at a time will help. But then you'll never win because you wont have your premade vs pug group?! You must be very conflicted.

 

/tryagain

I'm not sure how you got that from my post. Having watched (and posted) your embarrassing ragequit the other day (and giggled more than a few times about it) I can understand that you have an axe to grind, but what I wrote is fairly clear.

 

Tinnis, always helpful, asked about the size of the CW for that test and my expectation was clearly accurate.

 

 

Size of mini campaign:

  • Will be 20x20 cells!
  • compared to 7x7 for SP - but we saw less due to the hunger.
  • the hunger dome was 4x4 size

A 'continent' is 20 cells by 20 cells - we can then stitch multiples of these together later on.

 

A cell is 256 x 256 meters = so mini campaign / contintent is 5.1 km x 5.1 km

 

That's far larger than SP or HD. I expect that will generally result in better latency for everyone (Chin up! Even bad players with good PCs should have better performance) I expect the combat will feel better than it does in these testing formats for that reason. I expect the devs will optimize between now and then, further improving the feel of combat.

 

I'm not sure what's hard to follow about that. Surely you didn't *gasp* intentionally mischaracterize a post Ziz. Shame.

Edited by coolwaters

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I just don't get why we're not allowed to complain. People will scream to the heavens that we're in Pre-Genesis, but god forbid we complain about anything that's not finished. Guess my parents didn't love me enough to give me sunshine enemas on the tip of a unicorn's horn so I would be all positive all the time.

 

I will at least concede that until performance gets where it needs to be, we can't definitively say combat sucks.

Who told you you "aren't allowed to complain?"

 

Criticism is required for improvement.

 

Of course that doesn't mean the criticism should be in the form of childish rants, hyperbolic nonsense or ridiculous accusations levied at devs. Read the Q&A from the other day. They know combat isn't great yet. For me, personally, the performance is the worst part of it. Is that because I have a "potato pc" as Ziz suggests? Maybe, but I doubt it. Some of the guys with brand new rigs have similar problems from what I've seen.

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Who told you you "aren't allowed to complain?"

 

Criticism is required for improvement.

 

Of course that doesn't mean the criticism should be in the form of childish rants, hyperbolic nonsense or ridiculous accusations levied at devs. Read the Q&A from the other day. They know combat isn't great yet. For me, personally, the performance is the worst part of it. Is that because I have a "potato pc" as Ziz suggests? Maybe, but I doubt it. Some of the guys with brand new rigs have similar problems from what I've seen.

I have never worked on a project in either my personal or professional life that a persons contribution of 'complaining' was helpful. There is nothing wrong in disagreeing with something. Disagree and suggest changes, work toward something. But to do it in a non-constructive caustic manner is just annoying and more detrimental then helpful. But there is always 'that guy'.


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I'm not sure how you got that from my post. Having watched (and posted) your embarrassing ragequit the other day (and giggled more than a few times about it) I can understand that you have an axe to grind, but what I wrote is fairly clear.

 

Tinnis, always helpful, asked about the size of the CW for that test and my expectation was clearly accurate.

 

 

That's far larger than SP or HD. I expect that will generally result in better latency for everyone (Chin up! Even bad players with good PCs should have better performance) I expect the combat will feel better than it does in these testing formats for that reason. I expect the devs will optimize between now and then, further improving the feel of combat.

 

I'm not sure what's hard to follow about that. Surely you didn't *gasp* intentionally mischaracterize a post Ziz. Shame.

 

Mischaracterize what? You think that because the map will be larger and thus less people around that performance will be better and thus combat will be good. That is stupid. You are to short sighted to realize it is fundamentally flawed.

 

I also dont have an axe to grind, I'm not the one posting other peoples honest opinion about a game in some petty childish passive aggressive pathetic way of getting my *giggles* on (what are you a 12 yr old girl?) i got a warning for this... lol what a hardcore game

 

Combat is absolute poorly made socks. I tried for a YEAR to give them the benefit of the doubt, give them feed back, support them and continue to test. The Myrmidon which was implemented with root motion from the beginning is still absolute trash.

 

But yes, continue to pretend to be helpful, pretend to be nice, pretend that you and the winter blades are being helpful when in reality you quit matches because you cant have your perfect 6 man.

 

You're small and petty and waste of every ones time. I'm done with you.

Edited by Ziz

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The Myrmidon which was implemented with root motion from the beginning is still absolute trash.

 

What are you comparing it to?  The Myrmidon feels good with root motion.  The animations are well done and its a fun class to play because of the ability to survive in melee.  Running targets aren't an issue because of the range of movement attached to every attack plus you have a net and a stun with a huge forward range.  The skill window is lower because they have a clock counting it down for you but that would be easy to add if you didn't get one.

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Mischaracterize what? You think that because the map will be larger and thus less people around that performance will be better and thus combat will be good. That is stupid. You are to short sighted to realize it is fundamentally flawed.

 

 

That exactly. Or close. Combat will be what it is, without lag and performance interfering with the feedback.

 

You pretended not to understand a fairly simple point. I made it twice for you and now you seem to get it. Or more accurately, you now admit you understand the point. Your new story is that the argument is "fundamentally flawed." Why is that? Clearly less player congestion isn't a long term cure here, but it will allow players to experience the combat without as many performance issues so we can separate the signal from the noise. I can't imagine you really disagree with that, but who knows? Given your comments toward the devs and the game in general when you threw that tantrum I don't know what to expect from you anymore.

 

 

I also dont have an axe to grind, I'm not the one posting other peoples honest opinion about a game in some petty childish passive aggressive pathetic way of getting my *giggles* on (what are you a 12 yr old girl?)

So mean Ziz. You said the devs were morons and the game was trash and you were glad you sold your package (insert Butthead laugh) and you were through with the game. I was surprised to see you posting because I thought you meant what you said. Guess not.

 

Anyone who can watch that and not giggle is quite the stoic. Why did you take it down?

 

 

 

You're small and petty and waste of every ones [sic] time. I'm done with you.

Aaaaand the hits just keep on comin'. Are you "done with me" like you're "done with CF?" Is it because of the aspersions you cast at me above? I can chaaaaaaane Ziz! Gimme a chance bud.

 

I'll give you a pass. I can't quit you either man.

Edited by coolwaters

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People say the Myrmidon "feels good" with root motion. 

 

I say it feels good in spite of root motion. Combat is always more fluid without rooted animations locking people into place.

 

Truly I think its ironic because the Myrmidon is perceived to be the fastest and most fluid of all the root-motion melee archetypes (maybe even among the ranged as well); what I see is that it most closely resembles split-body free-flowing melee combat, less constrained by the animation locks than other archetypes. 

 

People seem not to realize that all archetypes would feel even better if they all were more fluid and less staggered.

 

I argue that the feeling they enjoy about the Myrmidon stems from the same type of combat that so many people seem to shout down: full action combat, full freedom of movement with attacks, no animation locks.


aka honeybear

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I'm not sure how you got that from my post. Having watched (and posted) your embarrassing ragequit the other day (and giggled more than a few times about it) I can understand that you have an axe to grind, but what I wrote is fairly clear.

 

 

Wait, I'm a stickler for drama... Where was this post?

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People say the Myrmidon "feels good" with root motion. 

 

I say it feels good in spite of root motion. Combat is always more fluid without rooted animations locking people into place.

 

I argue that the feeling they enjoy about the Myrmidon stems from the same type of combat that so many people seem to shout down: full action combat, full freedom of movement with attacks, no animation locks.

 

Animation locks make combat look better than split body animation.  Sure you can easily make combat more "fluid" with split body animation but it doesn't improve the skill of the combat.  Animation locks with root motion add additional levels of game play.  Its fun to fight on a wall and dodge some ones attack such that they fall off the wall and die.  You can't just surround someone and attack them while still blocking them from escape with pill collision.  

 

This is a full action combat game, freedom of movement reduces the skill cap, animation locks are required for balancing the power of skills.

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I'm probably getting trolled here but alright, i'll bite.

 

Animation locks make combat look better than split body animation.  

 

Thank God this is a movie, and not a game. How it looks should always trump how it feels.

 

Oh wait, its the opposite.

 

 Sure you can easily make combat more "fluid" with split body animation but it doesn't improve the skill of the combat.  Animation locks with root motion add additional levels of game play.

 

Time for some logic

 

A target that can always move is harder to track than a target that frequently cannot move. 

Split body combat involves combat where targets can always move and is harder to track.

Rooted motion combat involves combat where the target frequently cannot move and is easier to track.

Things that are harder to track take more skill to hit.

It takes more skill to fight in split body than rooted combat.

 

You can't just surround someone and attack them while still blocking them from escape with pill collision.  

 

Currently, mosh-pit mob melees are how the vast majority of lone individuals get cut down. Rooted combat reduces mobility while fighting, while split body combat improves mobility while fighting and gives people a chance to "squirrel" and avoid getting zerged. 

 

This is a full action combat game, freedom of movement reduces the skill cap,

Actually the opposite is true. Read above

 

 

animation locks are required for balancing the power of skills.

 

They are not needed for balancing of power or skills.

 

See: any and all competitive action games that do not have root motion but still balance different powers.

 

If i'm just getting trolled here, well, then, i guess you win and this can serve as an elementary school-level FAQ for why split-body combat>>rooted combat.

Edited by vucar

aka honeybear

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Thank God this is a movie, and not a game. How it looks should always trump how it feels.

How it looks is generally a criteria for reviews.  How it feels should always trump how it looks but making it look better and feel great is a good goal to have.

 

 

 

Time for some logic

 

A target that can always move is harder to track than a target that frequently cannot move. 

Split body combat involves combat where targets can always move and is harder to track.

Rooted motion combat involves combat where the target frequently cannot move and is easier to track.

Things that are harder to track take more skill to hit.

It takes more skill to fight in split body than rooted combat.

True, now lets apply that logic to the Crowfall game.

All melee skills currently have forward momentum that equals the distance the character would have traveled holding W

Therefore melee characters are always moving thus no skill is lost by keeping root motion and the cap is increased (see my previous post)

 

Most ranged classes don't have movement on skills.  An answer in the AMA on 9/16 said this was changing and that ranged would continue to see more movement.  I believe the limited movement for range is a relic from when melee had much less movement on skills.

 

Conclusion if split body only adds more skill to the combat because people are constantly moving Crowfall has corrected that with their current root motion melee iteration and are working on it for ranged.

 

 

Currently, mosh-pit mob melees are how the vast majority of lone individuals get cut down. Rooted combat reduces mobility while fighting, while split body combat improves mobility while fighting and gives people a chance to "squirrel" and avoid getting zerged.

When we had split body animations, it meant I could pin a target to the wall with my champions pill and then beat them to death without moving because they couldn't slide past the pill.  You could do the same thing by surrounding a target with four players while they where stunned.  The root motion forces the pills to slide around and allows trapped characters to be "Squirrel-y".  The amount of motion in the current iteration of melee combat allows characters to jump in and out of combat and even ranged can escape zergs with peeling.  If its just you vs four you are eventually going to get run down by skilled players.

 

 

 

 

Degan, on 17 Sept 2016 - 7:51 PM, said:snapback.png

 

     animation locks are required for balancing the power of skills.

 

 

 

They are not needed for balancing of power or skills.

 

 

Thomas has said they are using the duration of the animation to balance the power of skills.  WOW and many other games have cast bars for skills that you can interrupt.  Generally the longer the cast time the more powerful the spell.  In Crowfall instead of having a cast bar you get an animation.  In Darksouls the bigger the weapon the longer the animation lock the bigger the damage.

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And dolphin mounts...WE NEED THESE.

 

Remember, I'm watching you....

 

 

P.S. Still watching, still fiending for the dolphin mounts.

 

You are an evil man Helix.

 

MEND THY WAYS! (waving censers about).  


“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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Every MMO I play, DAOC, Warhammer Online, Guildwars2 with keep sieges always have HUNDREDS of people at keep battles. 

 

While I feel the issues I have with the "game" come from design choices more so than performance issues, I will say that my experience with those games and tons of players on screen did lead to some less enjoyable experiences due to performance.

 

While the lag slideshows weren't that thrilling, the combat designs overall made up for it when things did run smoothly. Having a larger world to run around in and less people on screen isn't going to make CF's combat and archetype designs instantly more appealing to me. Might allow those with poor performance to get a better experience, but standing in place swinging a weapon ins't drastically different with lag or not.

 

 

Animation locks make combat look better than split body animation.  Sure you can easily make combat more "fluid" with split body animation but it doesn't improve the skill of the combat.  Animation locks with root motion add additional levels of game play.  Its fun to fight on a wall and dodge some ones attack such that they fall off the wall and die.  You can't just surround someone and attack them while still blocking them from escape with pill collision.  

 

This is a full action combat game, freedom of movement reduces the skill cap, animation locks are required for balancing the power of skills.

 

This is all fairly subjective. Could just as easily say the opposite and be just as correct.

 

Every system can work and be enjoyable, but being or having XYZ doesn't make it so.

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Who told you you "aren't allowed to complain?"

 

Criticism is required for improvement.

 

Of course that doesn't mean the criticism should be in the form of childish rants, hyperbolic nonsense or ridiculous accusations levied at devs. Read the Q&A from the other day. They know combat isn't great yet. For me, personally, the performance is the worst part of it. Is that because I have a "potato pc" as Ziz suggests? Maybe, but I doubt it. Some of the guys with brand new rigs have similar problems from what I've seen.

 

Do you mean ground apple?

Edited by headlight

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So for people that like mmos Revelation Online is the next coming thing in next month.

I won't write anything about that game other then about Combat, since it's Crowfall forums after all.

 

So, it has action combat. Not the best one(since there are lock on skills like Tera and I  don't like those), but fairly good one.

Thing is I have played it on CN server (I live in EU) and had around 500-800 ping depending on time of day.

 

And you know what ?

 

It's smoother then CW on 80 ping. Combat with 1 sec delay is smoother then no delay combat in CW.

After playing that game I once again realized how slow, dull and boring CW combat is.

 

 

//rant off

 

Fix it here please :)

Just let players move on almost all skills without that annoying root.

Or make everything 1,5 faster ( animations and movement)

Or look into any of 1001 topics about how combat is bad and how could be improved.

 

PLEASE don't hold onto that rooted-slow combat you have, just please :)

I had the same feeling you had while testing on different Servers (EU-US).

I feel the movement being clunky + combat skills too slow even compared to old games.

This will get fixed hopefully.

 

PS: I also got some troubles aiming some skills (for example: Knight's Chain).

Edited by LudOOf

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I'm probably getting trolled here but alright, i'll bite.

 

 

Thank God this is a movie, and not a game. How it looks should always trump how it feels.

 

Oh wait, its the opposite.

 

 

Time for some logic

 

A target that can always move is harder to track than a target that frequently cannot move. 

Split body combat involves combat where targets can always move and is harder to track.

Rooted motion combat involves combat where the target frequently cannot move and is easier to track.

Things that are harder to track take more skill to hit.

It takes more skill to fight in split body than rooted combat.

 

 

Currently, mosh-pit mob melees are how the vast majority of lone individuals get cut down. Rooted combat reduces mobility while fighting, while split body combat improves mobility while fighting and gives people a chance to "squirrel" and avoid getting zerged. 

 

Actually the opposite is true. Read above

 

 

 

They are not needed for balancing of power or skills.

 

See: any and all competitive action games that do not have root motion but still balance different powers.

 

If i'm just getting trolled here, well, then, i guess you win and this can serve as an elementary school-level FAQ for why split-body combat>>rooted combat.

 

Well, thank you for saving me the trouble of writing a bunch of replies.

 

Also a bunch of people here are pretty challenged upstairs, it's quite obvious that the root animations are a huge detriment to the current gameplay.

Edited by Zushakon

Member of The BlackHand Order

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I think combat should focus on skillful play as that will be appealing to modern gamers, and slowed down rooted combat will feel almost completely unplayable to them. 

 

I know this is a niche game but if a game heralds itself as a great pvp game it must require player skill.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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