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Naur

YACRT (Yet Another Combat Rant Topic)

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I think people are viewing the root motion too much as a "jesus take the wheel" type game-play, but its not.

 

The reason some people view root motion as requiring skill is timing their slow animation abilities. Most people, currently,  fire their attack animations  with blinders on focusing on trying to hit the person they are targeting. This leads to them putting their selves  in a poor position. They are stuck inside a animation and become the easier target to attack. If you watch some of the videos of grouping in the hunger dome they call out when they are CC someone so everyone knows its the perfect time to pull off these slow animation

 

In a duel it becomes a game of chess, the risk of using a ability to just having it countered/dodge vs the damage it can do. Hence using CC for setup for these slow animations. If you could completely move freely during these animations it would be closer to a FPS where people are circle strafing each other and/or it becomes a game of movement speed like alot of tab targeting melee MMO's out there.

 

I think it would be better received if they limited the root motion to key abilities instead of a large amount of them. And speed things up a bit so its smoother. In the current implementation it just feels slow and clunky.

 

I think i have said this before but the original idea they mentioned was slowing things down so people could react. This is a game of huge battles, the concept of reacting is moot. Even if you are fighting three people you can only react to one or two so the entire concept of slowing things down is for a 1v1 type setting, just get rid of that idealism.

 

Remove root animation from alot of the abilities and speed things up, please.

Edited by Vectious

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How it looks is generally a criteria for reviews.  How it feels should always trump how it looks but making it look better and feel great is a good goal to have.

 

That is terrible reasoning to make design decisions. An mmo is a product, a very complicated one, but a product nonetheless. All decisions, such as combat, should be made to meet the needs, goals, and expectations of your customers. If your customers primary desire is fast, responsive combat, you build it. Period. Do you think people play WoW because the combat is the best looking, the highest skill level or offers the most customization? No, absolutely not. The reason why people still play is because despite WoW's combat not topping any single category, its combat is of extremely high quality across the board and it is unmatched in providing ways for players to experience it's combat (content). 

Edited by sangz

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Do you think people play WoW because the combat is the best looking, the highest skill level or offers the most customization? No, absolutely not.

 

 

Honestly trying to figure out why people still play that game.


Hg0LXwa.png

 

 

 

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That is terrible reasoning to make design decisions. An mmo is a product, a very complicated one, but a product nonetheless. All decisions, such as combat, should be made to meet the needs, goals, and expectations of your customers. If your customers primary desire is fast, responsive combat, you build it. Period. Do you think people play WoW because the combat is the best looking, the highest skill level or offers the most customization? No, absolutely not. The reason why people still play is because despite WoW's combat not topping any single category, its combat is of extremely high quality across the board and it is unmatched in providing ways for players to experience it's combat (content). 

The combat in WoW actually requires a tremendous amount of skill, the problem is blizzard doesn't really care about pvp other than having it as a minor ride in the theme park. 

 

But your general notion is correct... The reasoning of the post you quoted was not good. 

 

Appearance can matter for the first month, but the feel of combat matters most if you actually want to keep your game going. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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This is still a thing? Oh boy.

 

I'm having a difficult time thinking of a single good action game that had split body combat. If anyone can share any examples, please do. In the meantime I'll continue to fondly remember the Souls games, Monster Hunter, Dragon's Dogma, Devil May Cry, every fighting game ever...

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This is still a thing? Oh boy.

 

I'm having a difficult time thinking of a single good action game that had split body combat. If anyone can share any examples, please do. In the meantime I'll continue to fondly remember the Souls games, Monster Hunter, Dragon's Dogma, Devil May Cry, every fighting game ever...

 

All of those are pve heavy, single player (excluding fighting games, which are 1v1) and none of them involve large scale pvp. I think the devs will eventually settle on a balance between split body and root motion. 

Edited by helix

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All of those are pve heavy, single player (excluding fighting games, which are 1v1) and none of them involve large scale pvp. I think the devs will eventually settle on a balance between split body and root motion. 

Ah yes, suppose I forgot to throw Tera in there too. Couldn't stand the game except for the combat, but that combat did work in large scale PVP.

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Because there is literally nothing else. You know when people use WoW as the best example of combat, we're all doomed.

I wonder how many people that hate on wow's combat would do well in it?


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I think combat should focus on skillful play as that will be appealing to modern gamers, and slowed down rooted combat will feel almost completely unplayable to them. 

 

I know this is a niche game but if a game heralds itself as a great pvp game it must require player skill.

 

I'm fine with CF being a poor PVP game (to you) if that means individuals don't matter more than the whole. If that keeps the pro scene away, things will hopefully not implode instantly.

 

So far I see almost every aspect of the design catering to social play instead of focusing on individual talent.

 

*Passive training, group harvesting, faction CWs, craft/harvest alts, vessel/archetype swapping, slow/rooted combat, little focus on aim, positioning, pro/reactive powers, etc*

 

More of a pick up and go design that regardless of the ceiling will allow good players to do well, just not the lobby design.

 

Still not happy with the combat system as is though.

Edited by APE

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I'm fine with CF being a poor PVP game (to you) if that means individuals don't matter more than the whole. If that keeps the pro scene away, things will hopefully not implode instantly.

 

So far I see almost every aspect of the design catering to social play instead of focusing on individual talent.

 

*Passive training, group harvesting, faction CWs, craft/harvest alts, vessel/archetype swapping, slow/rooted combat, little focus on aim, positioning, pro/reactive powers, etc*

 

More of a pick up and go design that regardless of the ceiling will allow good players to do well, just not the lobby design.

 

Still not happy with the combat system as is though.

 

I'd rather crowfall take skill, because players that have played skillful games at the top know that increasing the skill-ceiling doesn't make individuals take away from the whole, it just makes a higher skill-ceiling for the whole as well. 

 

I guess not everyone has experience with that so they don't understand that though. 

 

We can basically see this in every team-based professional game though.

 

About as many that have never played WoW's combat.

Okay buddy...


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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The combat in WoW actually requires a tremendous amount of skill, the problem is blizzard doesn't really care about pvp other than having it as a minor ride in the theme park. 

 

But your general notion is correct... The reasoning of the post you quoted was not good. 

 

Appearance can matter for the first month, but the feel of combat matters most if you actually want to keep your game going. 

 

The last sentence, strictly speaking, isn't true as a singular absolute.

 

I played Tribes 2 (the Renegade Mod) for some time "in the day".  Great combat, really interesting load out kits and equipment in the Renegade Mod, etc.  Combat was fast, fluid, variable.  I don't remember the number of maps available, but is was "a bunch".

 

Lots of players for a while, lots of active servers to hop onto.

 

But it eventually died.

 

Now, every game has a life span, nothing lasts forever.  Some of the pull away factor surely had to have been, to some degree, newer games coming out (don't recall what those titles would have been).  Yet still, for all the game did have great combat on a bunch of different maps, it died.  This begs the question, why?

 

One factor I do recall the remaining community talking about was:  The dev house / players with toolkits (don't remember, but I'm fairly sure map generation was possible by players running servers/mods) took too long releasing NEW MAPS.  The playerbase had (finally) gotten bored running the same maps, regardless of their number, bazillions of times over, again and again.  I remember having those conversations with some players I knew.

 

They were bored.  For all they could pew-pew fluidly, quickly, with great gear load outs, interesting deployments.

 

Another poster in another thread, and I wish I could find it, made the distinction here in the CF forums that combat, all by itself isn't the goal.  It's the tool you use as you engage in your goals in a CW.  That the goals are to take that fort, successfully run your packs to safety, defend something, ambush a caravan, etc. 

 

I'm not dissing the idea of "combat must feel great and be responsive and not be too ez-mode".  Sure, ok, I agree.  But it's not a singular holy-grail that's going to ensure the game is secured for the next 10 years.  Pay attention to what I'm saying, in context:  I'm NOT suggesting combat can be crap-tastic.  What I am suggesting is:

  • Assuming combat is "reasonable", the game will be fine if everything else about it is engaging, with frequent injections of different to keep that stimuli hitting human players (e.g., hopefully, dynamic CW world generation + fun seiges + "Throne War" jockeying + whatever).
  • If combat is stellar (in your personal benchmark) it won't keep the game going if everything else is poor / boring. 

Personally, I would have kept playing Tribes2 for quite some time because I loved the combat, the variances in loadouts and gear in the Renegades Mod (well thought out, nothing Godly to silly degree), deployables, etc.  But, again as I recall, a whole bunch of people left because they were just BORED doing the same thing over and over again on maps they could walk blindfolded.

 

And the combat didn't save it.  The delay in releasing a whole set of new maps with different objectives was at least a part of player-collapse.

Edited by Bramble

“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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Seriously?

 

How you have not heard of Darkfall on this forum by now is beyond me. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWHO85nMx4A

That was hopefully a awful example of darkfall.

 

Looked like a guy chasing people at random swinging  flailing a sword wildly.

 

Only indication that he hit anyone was maybe a slight blood splotch.

 

In some points it looked alot like tab targeting kiting doing the classic jump turn firing. Or just chasing someones butt and swinging wildly.

 

I didint see any dodging or expert positioning just a guy keeping on the move trying to randomly engage people. 

 

Not sure why i watched the whole thing.


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^ that's what I always thought when I looked at Darkfall combat videos:

 

1. people missing with the bow

2. that hand going palm up a lot

3. and then bunny hopping until one player got motion sickness

 

But then again, we brag about shadowbane, but that game probably looks like people standing around or following each other.

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That was hopefully a awful example of darkfall.

 

Looked like a guy chasing people at random swinging  flailing a sword wildly.

 

Only indication that he hit anyone was maybe a slight blood splotch.

 

In some points it looked alot like tab targeting kiting doing the classic jump turn firing. Or just chasing someones butt and swinging wildly.

 

I didint see any dodging or expert positioning just a guy keeping on the move trying to randomly engage people. 

 

Not sure why i watched the whole thing.

 

It was a terrible example, but there's a poorly made socks ton of skilled maneuvers and decision making in that chaos, most people would've died after like 10 sec.

Edited by Zushakon

Member of The BlackHand Order

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Ok i'll own up to picking a poorly made socks example. I was never a big fan of Umberto to begin with but he has tons of views. I literally saw it on my youtube feed an hour before posting that and didn't vet it.

 

I'm not usually in the business of spending hours digging through youtube to find good darkfall example vids, but even in that video you can pick out the nuances of good action combat:

 

-precision aim

-free-flowing movement

-bullet drop

-real-time physics

-melee-pushing into crowds of enemies without overextending.

 

Alright maybe that last one has more to do with friendly fire not being a thing, but thats a separate argument.   

 

Right now I'm not even touching on the decision making part of when to stat up, when to crossheal, when to go melee and when to back out for range in Darkfall, because i'm willing to cede that even Crowfall combat, in this unfortunate state, has some required level of decision making. I'm focusing purely on the pace and flow of split-animation over rooted combat to stay on topic.

 

From ~3:15 to 4:40 of this vid shows what i would describe as high-level team play in Darkfall. Combat that is fast-paced, crisp and has reflex-based aimed like DF1 allows for higher skill ceilings because players that can't keep up, both in duels and group vs group situations, will not do as well.

 

edit; for those not versed in DF. Hit-sounds were a thing, it was very clear when you hit someone as there was a very audible hit sound, muted in these vids. 

 

Dodging in DF did not look like "step sideways" because combat was too fast paced. If you wanted to dodge, it meant you ran forward in a different direction -- archer vs archer meant turning 90 degrees to move quickly out of the way while you knock another arrow, and then turning 90 degrees back to let your arrow go. Similarly, in melee, dodging had a lot to do with knowing how far out your swing went, and timing your movement to get that hit in and then escape their melee range.

Edited by vucar

aka honeybear

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