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Dirkoff

Active Skill Training

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I thought I would focus on one of the recent AMA Q&A topics: Active Skill Training

 

We all know passive training will be implemented. Will Active Training be also implemented in some form? If so, will Active Training be restricted to certain skill trees (ie, only combat, crafting, etc.)?

Tyrant: http://crowfall.com/en/faq/skills/ We don't have an active training component, we aren't big fans of grinding for tiny gains. We want your play to be viscerally rewarding.

 

Does this affect crafting (i.e. making crafters less important)?

Will it stimulate the use of ALT accounts? 

Why can't we have some percentage of skill progression as an active component?

How will the crafting system (with 100% passive skill progression) ensure you have to be active to prosper as opposed to just login for 10 minutes to craft an item?

Is 100% passive skill progression anti-grind?

EVE has 100% passive skill training but their overall skill interdependence is more complex, will a simpler skill tree in CF work?

 

 


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I think they should not abandon active skill training completely, because getting an increase in skill and seeing a message about it feels rewarding for the player and provides a small sense of accomplishment.

 

 

I think the skill gains should be split into passive part where the cap up to which it is possible to acquire a skill is increased (basically what we have now)

 

And an active part, where you have log in in game and redeem those passive gains by executing actions associated with that skill manually. This part should be very easy to accomplish and should not become a grind in any way. I'd say one successful action - 1 skill point gained.

 

This will also make maintaining too many alts kind of harder at least early on in the game, since you will need to acquire all the resources required to perform skill actions and actually spend some time acquiring skills on each alt.

 

Also skills could be raised by acquiring certain resources, similar to the disciplines, for example you obtain materials from which you craft a potion of marksmanship, and after you consume it, your marksmanship skill increases up to your current passive cap.

 

This would also create another major resource to have conflict over.

 

OR

 

Maybe even passive gains should require both time and materials. For example to raise Carpentry from 10% to 20% should require 2 days of passive training, 30 lumber, 50 iron nails a hammer and 10 ropes in your inventory.

 

OR

 

Raising a skill could require a specific building. For example in oder to raise your Carpentry up to your passive cap you'd have to log out at the Lumbermill, and to raise your Meditation you'd have to log out the temple of cybelle, which is a higher tier building and requires more initial investment.

Edited by rajah

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Well I wanted to say some of this in the other topic about whether VIP accounts and multi-accounts are going to be a necessity to stay competitive.

 

Well first of all it depends how they implement crafting. If you can just "order" 10000 iron swords and then go afk -> multi-accounts will be a thing. If you have to let's say play a little minigame or at least require the crafter to manually put in the materials and then craft it one by one I don't see any significant advantage of having multiple accounts. Sure thing - people with multiple accounts will have a opportunity to go so many more ways than players with 1 account do. But it also means they have to put in a significant amount of additional time which makes it even at some point for me. 

 

So in essence multi-accounts will always be thing. With the passive training in place - even more. 

 

Next - Im not sure how deep the thrall production goes but I guess they will only do the processing work such as crafting raw iron into iron bars for you to sell or to store or let's say process raw leather into leather pieces you can use for crafting leather equipment. But I'm certain it doesn't go any higher than that. Otherwise crafters would be obsolete 


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I thought I would focus on one of the recent AMA Q&A topics: Active Skill Training

 

We all know passive training will be implemented. Will Active Training be also implemented in some form? If so, will Active Training be restricted to certain skill trees (ie, only combat, crafting, etc.)?

Tyrant: http://crowfall.com/en/faq/skills/ We don't have an active training component, we aren't big fans of grinding for tiny gains. We want your play to be viscerally rewarding.

 

Does this affect crafting (i.e. making crafters less important)?

Will it stimulate the use of ALT accounts? 

Why can't we have some percentage of skill progression as an active component?

How will the crafting system (with 100% passive skill progression) ensure you have to be active to prosper as opposed to just login for 10 minutes to craft an item?

Is 100% passive skill progression anti-grind?

EVE has 100% passive skill training but their overall skill interdependence is more complex, will a simpler skill tree in CF work?

my opinions to that questions:

it affects crafting. it does not make crafting less important, it just makes it impossible to be a fighter and a crafter in the same time and therefore forces everyone that wants to fight effectively to craft on a second account. so yes, it totally stimulates usage of alt accounts.

...dunno ace?

...dunno ace?

no, 100% passie skill progression is not anti-grind. grind is boring repetitive doing of anything. waiting is such. with only passive progression, there is nothing but waiting. there is not even a reason to play if you want to achieve something. once you have the materials, you can do nothing but wait until you have the skill. thats totally boring.

dont know about eve

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I'm worried about crafting as well. If crafting is just recipes or some item placement or whatever, then it means that those who passively train their crafting or even use alt accounts that discipline it will be capable of doing as much as a dedicated crafter. 

 

While active training might help create some importance of dedicated crafters, I'd rather crafting somehow be skill-oriented than just throwing resources into a slot and clicking "Craft!", like the rest of the game. 

 

Alt accounting will always be a thing, I understand, but I at least want dedicated crafters to feel like they are more capable at their job than the typical alt, and not just with some stats from active training, but to feel like they themselves are able to craft better because they've spent the time to get good at the system, same as the fighters who practice their positioning and power combos.

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 In Real life the craftman also repeat the same tast over and over again to be better at it. However just because i make a 1000 wooden planks doesnt mean i can now craft a chair.
 

 

Wait thats it. How about we leave it at pasiv training but people who craft something active get an +X% quallity boost on that item.

example: I craft 1000 stone bricks. now my stone bricks have 10% more durability giving the walls made from them 10% more hit points.

 

This would make dedicated crafter very importand while also maintaining the current training system and it could also work for the combat system.

 

You used the left click attack 1000 times and get a 1% dmg boost to that.

 

The boost should however be Vessel bound. It would mean that someone who used the same vessel for a long time is a lot better then the guys with fresh vessels but it also means that there is a huge risk for people like that during combat.


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 In Real life the craftman also repeat the same tast over and over again to be better at it. However just because i make a 1000 wooden planks doesnt mean i can now craft a chair.

 

 

Wait thats it. How about we leave it at pasiv training but people who craft something active get an +X% quallity boost on that item.

example: I craft 1000 stone bricks. now my stone bricks have 10% more durability giving the walls made from them 10% more hit points.

 

This would make dedicated crafter very importand while also maintaining the current training system and it could also work for the combat system.

 

You used the left click attack 1000 times and get a 1% dmg boost to that.

 

The boost should however be Vessel bound. It would mean that someone who used the same vessel for a long time is a lot better then the guys with fresh vessels but it also means that there is a huge risk for people like that during combat.

 

I'm not a huge fan of this being the only differentiater between a dedicated crafter and an alt crafter. Kind of like how a dedicated fighter isn't just stats [they have to learn positioning, synergy, tactics], a crafter shouldn't just be numbers either. In this case, I feel the minigame should require some depth and strategy on its own, while at the same time providing a option for mass production in exchange for quality penalty.

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I think they should not abandon active skill training completely, because getting an increase in skill and seeing a message about it feels rewarding for the player and provides a small sense of accomplishment.

 

 

Perhaps there's a way to incorporate an achievement system to grant that notification and sense of accomplishment. So in lieu of getting skill experience a player gets an achievement- I'm sure there could be a way to tie achievements into granting small, tangible rewards?


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Active skill training makes player choice matter more than passive skill training ever will, because you are actively and constantly choosing how you want your character to excel. 

 

Oh well...

 

I don't think active skill training really has anything to do with player choice, more like player effort. A player puts effort into this one thing, they should be rewarded for taking the time to do it, or so the saying goes. However, player choice is done by choosing where your character will develop, whether you focus it into one archetype over another or choose combat over crafting skills.

 

Still, this shouldn't effect combat too much. Even with no active skill training, combat will have the depth of mechanics to split the experienced from the inexperienced, thus a matter of skill.

 

No active training really effects the areas, such as crafting, which are not typically representative of any sort of skill of the player.

 

Not saying it isn't upsetting, just that player choise isn't really effected by active versus passive training except, perhaps, the efficiency of growth.

Edited by Dondagora

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I completely understand not wanting people to "grind". But if its only 20% of the max its far, far from a "grind". And they also wanted a casual to have as much advantage as a more hardcore in the aspect of skills, i get it.

 

But, like if i never used maces in my entire crow life but i equip one and since i passively trained im a master, just seems less ownership of it since i actually didint do anything to earn the mastery. Now to master it i had to use it to finish it out 20%, that feels different.

 

And maybe just 10%. But i would like to feel that if i put extra time and effort in to something then the next guy i should get some reward out of it, and 10% advantage is small enough not to over balance but enough to let me feel like i earned an advantage.

 

So as for crafting, it entirely depends on how they implement crafting. If its 100% passive training requiring no input from a user then people who wanted to be dedicated crafters are instantly replaced by a alt account people can just send materials to. It may require 1-2 hours to craft the stuff but thats not a full time job, my friends.

 

Now if some key ingredients are BoP, or recipes BoP, this can change the dynamic considerably.

 

So basically, i am for a small amount of active training.

Edited by Vectious

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I think they should not abandon active skill training completely, because getting an increase in skill and seeing a message about it feels rewarding for the player and provides a small sense of accomplishment.

 

That treadmill is the antithesis of what ACE pitched Crowfall as.

 

T8WB9Me.jpg

 

Active training is not something you can just throw into the game without effort. There will be more than a thousand different skills. That potentially means they would need to make hundreds of different "grinds." They all have to be designed so that they can't be macro'd, and aren't too boring. The development effort involved is not trivial. They seem to have enough on their plate that making two separate skill progression systems would not be a wise investment.

 

There are other ways to make sure crafting is more than just "logging in an alt for 10 minutes."


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That treadmill is the antithesis of what ACE pitched Crowfall as.

 

T8WB9Me.jpg

 

Active training is not something you can just throw into the game without effort. There will be more than a thousand different skills. That potentially means they would need to make hundreds of different "grinds." They all have to be designed so that they can't be macro'd, and aren't too boring. The development effort involved is not trivial. They seem to have enough on their plate that making two separate skill progression systems would not be a wise investment.

 

There are other ways to make sure crafting is more than just "logging in an alt for 10 minutes."

How are you defining a grind?

 

If i have plate, shield, mace and as i use them doing raids/seiges etc they naturally level up with active training....thats not grinding out skills, thats using what i want to level up in skills.

 

Maybe active training is not the right term. Its sort of like a focused passive training.


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How are you defining a grind?

 

If i have plate, shield, mace and as i use them doing raids/seiges etc they naturally level up with active training....thats not grinding out skills, thats using what i want to level up in skills.

 

Maybe active training is not the right term. Its sort of like a focused passive training.

 

It becomes grind because people will naturally just go and fight anything and everything just to level up their skills faster. 


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How are you defining a grind?

 

If i have plate, shield, mace and as i use them doing raids/seiges etc they naturally level up with active training....thats not grinding out skills, thats using what i want to level up in skills.

 

Maybe active training is not the right term. Its sort of like a focused passive training.

 

If skills increased through active use clever individuals would find a way, any way, to grind them (wall of pain anyone?). I would personally rather have completely passive training than feel compelled to grind or macro in order to keep up.

 

I do agree that if crafting skills are able to be learned passively, if would be nice if the act of crafting itself was more involved than just a click of a button. A fully interactive, player controlled crafting system is a lot to ask for though and it hasn't really even been attempted in recent years. If a team could do it though, it would be ACE, so I am still hopeful.

 

If not, then perhaps the risk of losing an entire inventory while crafting in the CWs will be enough to deter some people from attempting it, and will leave it to the professionals.

Edited by Mytherceria

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How are you defining a grind?

 

If i have plate, shield, mace and as i use them doing raids/seiges etc they naturally level up with active training....thats not grinding out skills, thats using what i want to level up in skills.

 

Maybe active training is not the right term. Its sort of like a focused passive training.

 

I'd call it a grind whenever my motivation to swing my sword is to fill an xp bar. There are a ton of games out there that offer that experience. ACE does not seem to be targeting that market.

 

In Crowfall I want the motivation to swing my sword to be more immersive than that. I'll swing it to defend myself from raiders. To protect my caravan. To murder the guy that stole my loot. To impishly provoke a larger guild so I can watch them burn my city. That is the fun stuff. Allies, enemies, betrayal, et cetera.


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Im not sure why it has to be all or nothing. Maybe the active training can be used sparingly in situations that makes sense, like crafting.

 

The single biggest reason to not make both systems is the additional development cost.

Edited by Jah

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Im not sure why it has to be all or nothing. Maybe the active training can be used sparingly in situations that makes sense, like crafting.

 

They could but that opens up a glaring discrepancy between crafting and fighting, and could end up being really quite unfair to people who want to craft but don't have the time to play 24/7 in order to actively grind up their crafting skills. I think if you have passive training to one skill set, it should be for all skills sets. I don't see how a hybrid type system would work without becoming very messy and worse than what it was supposed to be solving.

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That treadmill is the antithesis of what ACE pitched Crowfall as.

 

T8WB9Me.jpg

 

Active training is not something you can just throw into the game without effort. There will be more than a thousand different skills. That potentially means they would need to make hundreds of different "grinds." They all have to be designed so that they can't be macro'd, and aren't too boring. The development effort involved is not trivial. They seem to have enough on their plate that making two separate skill progression systems would not be a wise investment.

 

There are other ways to make sure crafting is more than just "logging in an alt for 10 minutes."

 

You missed my point, I am not suggesting full scale active training whenre you have to stand and continuously beat on something. What I am suggesting is that some non-obtrusive player action is required to "skill up" providing immidiate feedback and gratification for the player.

 

1.) Full active training - you hit different stuff of increasing difficulty in order to max out your swordsmanship

2.) Full passive training - you swordsmaship increases while you play and while you are offline

3.) Blend of passive and active traning - your "potential" swordsmanship increases while you are offline, then you log in and redeem it in a very fast manner. (this way there is no real point in macroing, since all that is required is for you to long in take a sword and hitting something several times, for example 1 time per skill point gained. at the same time it requires you to DO something in order to gain that skill, which just feels more personal from character development perspective.

 

It should require no additional development effort since actions that will redeem your passively earned skill points are those that you would have perfomed in the game anyways, when you were going to use your acquired skills.)

 

P.S. If you get rid of the grind alltogether the game will feel less rewarding. I beleive the proper amount of required active training lies somewhere between "Motivation" and "Convenience" of the the axis below.

 

Chore (heavy grind)........................Motivation(provides a slight sense of accomplishment).........................Convenience (Absense of grind).

Edited by rajah

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