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Dirkoff

Active Skill Training

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Maybe active training makes more sense for crafting then for combat, and could be implemented along those lines?

 

Because there is always one point that gets blurred in every discussion : the fact crafters won't actually be crafters, at this point if I am to believe what I read, crafting will just be a mechanic to sell extra accounts so people who actually play a crafter will just be running around peddling goods offered cheaper by non crafters.

 

That is not the player driven economy model that ultimatly attracted me to the game.

 

We don't know how crafting will be implemented. There is still hope that the crafting of an item will be a more involved than clicking a button. I don't mind if crafting skills are trained passively but to actually make something in game it should be a bit more active and interesting. I do think though that if inventory loot stays a thing and enemies can raid cities, crafting will be a very active and dangerous process regardless of how they implement it.

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We don't know how crafting will be implemented. There is still hope that the crafting of an item will be a more involved than clicking a button. I don't mind if crafting skills are trained passively but to actually make something in game it should be a bit more active and interesting. I do think though that if inventory loot stays a thing and enemies can raid cities, crafting will be a very active and dangerous process regardless of how they implement it.

 

yeah I realize that, that's why I started the couple sentences with a "maybe". But from the info so far, I could be warrior with my own craft tree complementing another second account with crafting, giving already a double bonus : as a warrior I can make a name and a supply of goods more easily then the crafter with only the 1 account, a crafter who can train 3 combat trees yet has no real advantage over secondary accounts given how the system is announced this far, regardless of how the crafting is implemented.


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-a very satisfied customer-

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yeah I realize that, that's why I started the couple sentences with a "maybe". But from the info so far, I could be warrior with my own craft tree complementing another second account with crafting, giving already a double bonus : as a warrior I can make a name and a supply of goods more easily then the crafter with only the 1 account, a crafter who can train 3 combat trees yet has no real advantage over secondary accounts given how the system is announced this far, regardless of how the crafting is implemented.

 

I think how crafting is implemented makes a huge difference. If you are not a primary crafter type, you might not want to spend the time and effort (and danger) crafting might require. If you are primarily a fighter, you should be spending your time helping to fight in the campaign where you would find your time spent most rewarding and enjoyable, and where your talents would be better served. If crafting is just "click a button" and then go afk to play with your warrior with little danger to your alt crafter, then yes, there could be a problem. There should at the very least be a chance that your crafter can be ganked and lose everything it is crafting while you are not paying attention.

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I think how crafting is implemented makes a huge difference. If you are not a primary crafter type, you might not want to spend the time and effort (and danger) crafting might require. If you are primarily a fighter, you should be spending your time helping to fight in the campaign where you would find your time spent most rewarding and enjoyable, and where your talents would be better served. If crafting is just "click a button" and then go afk to play with your warrior with little danger to your alt crafter, then yes, there could be a problem. There should at the very least be a chance that your crafter can be ganked and lose everything it is crafting while you are not paying attention.

 

I just found a related Multi boxing thread (confirmed by ama), which is closely related to this topic :P


Dear ace, it was wrong of me to feel scammed, as time goes by, I realize that more and more. Thank you for letting me sell my account!

-a very satisfied customer-

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UO had active training and people made bots.

Darkfall had active training.

WoW had active training. Ever failed on a high level craft and lost expensive materials at level 299, trying to get to 300?

 

If you wish you could do the same thing over and over to get gains, then go to Life is Feudal.

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UO had active training and people made bots.

Darkfall had active training.

WoW had active training. Ever failed on a high level craft and lost expensive materials at level 299, trying to get to 300?

 

If you wish you could do the same thing over and over to get gains, then go to Life is Feudal.

Agree.

 

I just think with passive training you can focus on just playing the actual game. Not on tedious tasks then you get to play the real game.

 

and yeah at one point WoW had active weapon training skill up. It was tedious and didn't really add anything of value to the game so they took it out.

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Agree.

 

I just think with passive training you can focus on just playing the actual game. Not on tedious tasks then you get to play the real game.

 

and yeah at one point WoW had active weapon training skill up. It was tedious and didn't really add anything of value to the game so they took it out.

 

Sounds like people want immersive crafting. They want active training so that way their skills are valued more as someone who's spent time in the campaigns working on 300 wood chopping as opposed to some alt who never leaves the EK and has 300 wood working. I mean, I get it. But idk how they're going to cater to em.

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I see a lot of people worried that the passive skill training will be a disadvantage for crafters because of the possible use of secondary accounts. Crafting being my main focus in Crowfall, I'd like to chime in with my viewpoint.

To start, Id like to say that originally I was worried about crafting when they announced VIP and it didn't include any bonus for general skills. We then had the introduction of the vessels system which reduced all training to account level and took away the extra character slots from the Kickstarter. Then after comparing the math, I was worried that alt accounts would dominate the market since they were cheaper and they doubled the general training potential. After all of this change, I considered leaving Crowfall but, I always try to understand things from both perspectives.

The way I think about Crowfall crafting now is a complete 180 from before. VIP not having general crafting bonuses will force VIP players to choose between crafting and combat skills, which makes crafting more exclusive. Alt accounts may be able to provide the same ability benefits as a full time crafter but, what they lack is focus and the mindset of a crafter. Just like 2 max level characters in WoW, they have the same abilities but, not the same skill. I think of alt accounts as extra people. A person with 3 accounts can only play 1 effectively. These people will never be able to compete financially against the economic powerhouses.

 

Keeping the training fully passive keeps the training curve the same for everybody. The only advantage you have now will be the ability to log in and start training on day 1. I think this is a fair system and it prevents people from spam training the first 20% of every skill to artificially boost their training, years beyond the normal.

So I say bring on the alts. Your mains can buy from me when you get tired of account swapping.

Edited by IdeaMatrix

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The way I think about Crowfall crafting now is a complete 180 from before. VIP not having general crafting bonuses will force VIP players to choose between crafting and combat skills, which makes crafting more exclusive. Alt accounts may be able to provide the same ability benefits as a full time crafter but, what they lack is focus and the mindset of a crafter. Just like 2 max level characters in WoW, they have the same abilities but, not the same skill. I think of alt accounts as extra people. A person with 3 accounts can only play 1 effectively. These people will never be able to compete financially against the economic powerhouses.

 

Unless I'm missing something (not that the system seems remotely complete or revealed), I don't see much "skill" being needed for crafting. The typical "focus and mindset" of a crafter usually is being willing/able to do what others find tedious. If an alt account can do away with that tedious aspect, simply having the correct resources, disciplines/runes, and passively trained skill level could be all it takes. Of course a quick swap to another account and a glance at a searchable database will be needed as well.

 

Without active training, someone can't speed level a bunch of crafting trees so a dedicated crafter is on the same level as someone that never plays or "learns" their alt character.

 

The experimenting will give a leg up, but that only lasts so long with how fast info is slapped into spreadsheets these days.

 

I could see guild size limitations and other artificial restrictions helping crafters out and making alts less attractive, but even then there usually are ways around everything.

 

No clue how complex crafting will be, but hopefully crafters do have a place and an alt army isn't going to remove their need.

Edited by APE

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An active training system doesn't fit well with the vision of game. That seems more appropriate for a game with a solo levelling/questing system, or an individual achievement/grind system. Crowfall is a team-based game, what matters is what you contribute to your team and what you accomplish in the CW (or EK).

 

The passive skill training (1 general, 1 combat) intentionally makes you choose a specialized focus for your gameplay. This encourages you to work with other players that have different skills than you. It's designed to give you many incremental ways (thousands of skills) to progress your account over time. It's not meant to actually BE the gameplay.

 

Agreed.  The point of passive training is that you don't gate players who want to play with their team, but do not have equivalently free schedules.  How many games have we all played where players are excluded because they are just too low level or just not geared enough, and so can't participate and then obviously quit the game?  Fall behind, stay behind games.

 

I don't think Crowfall is such a game.  If they did implement the 20% active skill training, I'm sure less active players would be able to contribute.  I'm just not sold that it would add much to the game, frankly.  I'd rather the benefits of playing the game be making it more likely you win because you are engaged in battles and helping your guild build their castles.  And I want my guild member who can only log on for our Sunday PvP activities to be able to contribute.  If they can contribute, they'll play just as long as our players who play the most.  

Edited by mctan

Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


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Sounds like people want immersive crafting. They want active training so that way their skills are valued more as someone who's spent time in the campaigns working on 300 wood chopping as opposed to some alt who never leaves the EK and has 300 wood working. I mean, I get it. But idk how they're going to cater to em.

 

I don't necessarily want active training to differentiate myself from alt account crafters. What I feel the crafting community wants is immersive crafting which differentiates good crafters and bad crafters not just by the stats, but by how well they understand the crafting system/minigame, just as a good warrior isn't just the stats on their vessel and weapons but also their positioning and understanding of the game's mechanics.

 

tl;dr Crafters don't necessarily want active training, I feel we prefer a minigame of depth which we can become good at.

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Unless I'm missing something (not that the system seems remotely complete or revealed), I don't see much "skill" being needed for crafting. The typical "focus and mindset" of a crafter usually is being willing/able to do what others find tedious. If an alt account can do away with that tedious aspect, simply having the correct resources, disciplines/runes, and passively trained skill level could be all it takes. Of course a quick swap to another account and a glance at a searchable database will be needed as well.

 

Without active training, someone can't speed level a bunch of crafting trees so a dedicated crafter is on the same level as someone that never plays or "learns" their alt character.

 

The experimenting will give a leg up, but that only lasts so long with how fast info is slapped into spreadsheets these days.

 

I could see guild size limitations and other artificial restrictions helping crafters out and making alts less attractive, but even then there usually are ways around everything.

 

No clue how complex crafting will be, but hopefully crafters do have a place and an alt army isn't going to remove their need.

As I've said, the main thing that's necessary to make this all work for crafters is not active training [which is a grind, no matter how you look at it], but rather a crafting system with depth enough that there will be "skill" involved in crafting which can differentiate good and bad crafters.

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Damn son, triple post. Use the Multi-quote.

 

Anyway, I like that with passive only training we can do whatever we want in the game and never feel like we are gimping our progress. N oneed to grind or do something boring just to progress skills and "lv up". All grinding will be related to gathering, and it won't be much of a grind as it will require some fight for territory in many cases, so you will have to actively play the game.

 

I am also hoping for a crafting system that is deep enough, requiring dedication and some time put into it in game, so that the crafters are not comparable to alt accounts.


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https://books.google.ru/books?id=vABUDDf2kSsC&pg=PA94&lpg=PA94&dq=short-term+rewards+in+games&source=bl&ots=XJMxOfPCzA&sig=Zehb-RwvmpLHs4cTihVMsnByG4A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjX04GW85rPAhXkKJoKHRKAByUQ6AEIKjAE#v=onepage&q=short-term%20rewards%20in%20games&f=false

 

In other words in game actions that create instant gratification, create addiction for the game, while passive training no so much.  

Edited by rajah

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Ok so if me and 5386 other players chose to play Stalker and follow exatly the same path as far as passive training goes ( optimal one - because if you think players will not find optimal path you are plain d.. B), aside from gear (which most of those 5386 players will go for best one obvioisly...)

 

How are our characters different ? There is no lvl differance(since no lvls), we can wear same gear(since we lvl same skills), have same skills any given time.

 

There is no power differance possible at all in this system. Unless you lose your gear. And if you do mention disciplines > same thing, players will find and follow 2-3 mini max builds if game is well balanced.

Edited by Naur

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I thought I would focus on one of the recent AMA Q&A topics: Active Skill Training

 

We all know passive training will be implemented. Will Active Training be also implemented in some form? If so, will Active Training be restricted to certain skill trees (ie, only combat, crafting, etc.)?

Tyrant: http://crowfall.com/en/faq/skills/ We don't have an active training component, we aren't big fans of grinding for tiny gains. We want your play to be viscerally rewarding.

 

Does this affect crafting (i.e. making crafters less important)?

Will it stimulate the use of ALT accounts? 

Why can't we have some percentage of skill progression as an active component?

How will the crafting system (with 100% passive skill progression) ensure you have to be active to prosper as opposed to just login for 10 minutes to craft an item?

Is 100% passive skill progression anti-grind?

EVE has 100% passive skill training but their overall skill interdependence is more complex, will a simpler skill tree in CF work?

I think it will depend on so many other systems, that we hardly have enough information to really know how it will work out.

 

As for people using alt accounts, that will pretty much always happen and people who use multiple accounts will always have a benefit over people who don't, no matter how the system works.

 

But for example, we don't know how quickly gear will degrade. How often will gear have to either be repaired or crafted from scratch again?

We don't know how long it will take to actually craft something. Do you have to spent 5 min on each gear? Is there a little mini game you have to complete? Just logging on to quickly craft something with an alt sounds nice, but all time you spent crafting on the alt means less time actually playing on your main. Will it be 10 min or 40 min? You also have to spent time finding ressources, if you don't have a dedicated crafter/gatherer, so that is again less time spent actually playing how you want.

 

Only makes it more complicated when you take guilds into account. Sure, every guild member could have an alt account with crafting, but then suddenly it becomes much more expensive and much easier just to have a dedicated crafter in the guild.

 

Personally, I think it could be nice to have all individual parts of an item needed to be crafted, so that you have to craft several pieces of a sword before you can combine it. The Blacksmithing missions in WoW Legion actually works like this, where you have to melt the metal, forge the metal, hammer the metal and sharpen the metal etc. This could give the active component some people want, while also allowing for a lot of customization in the process of crafting.

 

 

 

Ok so if me and 5386 other players chose to play Stalker and follow exatly the same path as far as passive training goes ( optimal one - because if you think players will not find optimal path you are plain d.. B), aside from gear (which most of those 5386 players will go for best one obvioisly...)

 

How are our characters different ? There is no lvl differance(since no lvls), we can wear same gear(since we lvl same skills), have same skills any given time.

 

There is no power differance possible at all in this system. Unless you lose your gear. And if you do mention disciplines > same thing, players will find and follow 2-3 mini max builds if game is well balanced.

Well, just because you can wear the same gear, doesn't mean you will have access to the same gear. Besides that, you can also have different vessels (that varies in power) and choose different advantages and disadvantages.

 

Big difference in this game from other games is that you can actually both lose your gear *and* your vessel. So just because there is a build that says this gear is best and this vessel is best, it won't be easy to actually complete the build and you might just get killed and lose it all anyways.

This actually creates builds that are less strong competitively, but are cheaper and more efficient to sustain. I'd imagine, if you are planning on doing a siege, it will be far less expensive to create a ton of cheap armor for supply.


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