Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
Dirkoff

Active Skill Training

Recommended Posts

Unless I'm missing something (not that the system seems remotely complete or revealed), I don't see much "skill" being needed for crafting. The typical "focus and mindset" of a crafter usually is being willing/able to do what others find tedious. If an alt account can do away with that tedious aspect, simply having the correct resources, disciplines/runes, and passively trained skill level could be all it takes. Of course a quick swap to another account and a glance at a searchable database will be needed as well.

 

Without active training, someone can't speed level a bunch of crafting trees so a dedicated crafter is on the same level as someone that never plays or "learns" their alt character.

 

The experimenting will give a leg up, but that only lasts so long with how fast info is slapped into spreadsheets these days.

 

I could see guild size limitations and other artificial restrictions helping crafters out and making alts less attractive, but even then there usually are ways around everything.

 

No clue how complex crafting will be, but hopefully crafters do have a place and an alt army isn't going to remove their need.

You're right, there is no skill in the physical act of crafting. Anybody can click buttons and pop out an item. The skill has to do with strategy. Everything from planning your initial training skills and archetype to boost your efficiency, to marketing, to relationships...these things all effect your business. You have to remember that this is a game with potentially 100,000+ people. You may make a name for yourself by being a monster on the battlefield and you may win your campaigns and collect many resources but, no matter how many rare resources you feed your alt account, if nobody comes to buy your stuff, it's a waste of time and money.

 

Markets have a very delicate balance, driven by demand. If you're not ahead of the market trend, you'll have dead inventory. If you flood the market with a particular type of good, you will drop the value. Your choice of crafting skill may be useful but, over-saturated which will force you to undercut the market and lose revenue. There's a lot of foresight and statistics that drive game economies just like the real world. Sure, you can make money by selling stuff and not worry about all of this but, you also won't ever get rich. Alt accounts are the garage sale's to my Amazon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You're right, there is no skill in the physical act of crafting. Anybody can click buttons and pop out an item. The skill has to do with strategy. Everything from planning your initial training skills and archetype to boost your efficiency, to marketing, to relationships...these things all effect your business. You have to remember that this is a game with potentially 100,000+ people. You may make a name for yourself by being a monster on the battlefield and you may win your campaigns and collect many resources but, no matter how many rare resources you feed your alt account, if nobody comes to buy your stuff, it's a waste of time and money.

 

Markets have a very delicate balance, driven by demand. If you're not ahead of the market trend, you'll have dead inventory. If you flood the market with a particular type of good, you will drop the value. Your choice of crafting skill may be useful but, over-saturated which will force you to undercut the market and lose revenue. There's a lot of foresight and statistics that drive game economies just like the real world. Sure, you can make money by selling stuff and not worry about all of this but, you also won't ever get rich. Alt accounts are the garage sale's to my Amazon.

I don't see any option to like it more than once.

Edited by CytheS

5tcNR0w.png
                                     "A single attack to destroy anything"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You're right, there is no skill in the physical act of crafting. Anybody can click buttons and pop out an item. The skill has to do with strategy. Everything from planning your initial training skills and archetype to boost your efficiency, to marketing, to relationships...these things all effect your business. You have to remember that this is a game with potentially 100,000+ people. You may make a name for yourself by being a monster on the battlefield and you may win your campaigns and collect many resources but, no matter how many rare resources you feed your alt account, if nobody comes to buy your stuff, it's a waste of time and money.

 

Markets have a very delicate balance, driven by demand. If you're not ahead of the market trend, you'll have dead inventory. If you flood the market with a particular type of good, you will drop the value. Your choice of crafting skill may be useful but, over-saturated which will force you to undercut the market and lose revenue. There's a lot of foresight and statistics that drive game economies just like the real world. Sure, you can make money by selling stuff and not worry about all of this but, you also won't ever get rich. Alt accounts are the garage sale's to my Amazon.

Thats not really crafting you are talking about, for all of the above you do not even need crafting skills. The concept of crafting does not include the management and sales skills and vice versa IMO. Edited by rajah

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought I would focus on one of the recent AMA Q&A topics: Active Skill Training

 

We all know passive training will be implemented. Will Active Training be also implemented in some form? If so, will Active Training be restricted to certain skill trees (ie, only combat, crafting, etc.)?

Tyrant: http://crowfall.com/en/faq/skills/ We don't have an active training component, we aren't big fans of grinding for tiny gains. We want your play to be viscerally rewarding.

 

Does this affect crafting (i.e. making crafters less important)?

Will it stimulate the use of ALT accounts? 

Why can't we have some percentage of skill progression as an active component?

How will the crafting system (with 100% passive skill progression) ensure you have to be active to prosper as opposed to just login for 10 minutes to craft an item?

Is 100% passive skill progression anti-grind?

EVE has 100% passive skill training but their overall skill interdependence is more complex, will a simpler skill tree in CF work?

/sign

early they told what we will have active training while playing

I hate multiboxing, ecpecially if it goes directly from DEVs

 

crafting should be only active (craft X - get Y progression) or be reciept-dependent only (with passive leveling)

OR we should have huge boost for leveling while playing (fighting - combat spells leveling boost, crafting - crafting spells, gathering - etc)


crowfall pvp makkonMyrmidon statement: Out of Fury

Discord makkon#8550

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems the majority of people are for passive training. 

 

Having not played EVE, i just find it difficult to conceptualize, honestly. 

 

Six months after release, how does a new player compete? Does this create a entirely weird market of account selling? Buying up dozens of accounts at release to just sell them for a large money payoff so a new player can basically "pay to win"?  There is no pay per month like EVE so wouldn't this be a completely viable thing?

 

I know in games currently people can buy accounts, but at least a huge amount of effort and resources/time has to be put in to prepare an account to be sold. 

 

This will be my last topic on active training, like i said the majority wants it. The thread was created to gauge peoples opinion on it and i feel its been gauged. :)


CfWBSig.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Weither or not the systems are in place to allow Active training, or if its a good idea or not, people are missing a huge point.

 

If all i gotta do is swing my sword at an enemy to gain skill, why would i not go to my EK drop a zone of spawners for non ranged based enemies then put a house with a doorway down and literally afk macro my abilities to attack in the doorway where the mobs are gonna move to, to attack me, and then i just sit there and gain all the skill i need while doing nothing?

 

Most of the people with common sense will say, no eff that you shouldnt gain skills when in the safety of your EK.

 

Then the issue becomes if its not fair or right to gain skill from the safety of the EK why is it fair/right to gain skill easier in easier bands?

 

Should the Dregs have the fastest rate of skill gain cause the overall territory of any side is what ever one guild can hold, while having Gods Reach give barely any because there will roughly be 1/3rd of the population of that world on one side so the overall territory that is owned by any given side is massively bigger than if those sides were split, meaning the deeper in your territory you go the more likely you are to be safe to afk farm?

 

Another thing is how would you level skills that dont have "Active" ways to level. Health Skills, Armor Skills, Generalized Weapon Skills (Ie, Just overall +x% DMG, and +x%Crit Chance, ones not specifically tied to specific weapons like in the combat tree) Mana/Rage/Etc Skills. If your answer is just take damage to level health, then your dumb cause people would just mob farm in a doorway with a healer botting behind them. If you answer for leveling Mana/Rage/Other Skill Resource Skills is to use the resource then why would i not just sit in a corner of my keep and spam abilities constantly. The skills like Health and Armor have no "Active" way of training anyways because you cant actively use them. All you can do is passively let other entities Act on you which isnt you doing anything (ie letting mobs/players beat up on you isnt ACTIVLY doing anything)

 

Active training is only gonna lead to people finding ways to bot skill levels because if they have to do the work they will find a way to do it when they dont need to pay attention. Which will either become EK abuse, or Outer Ring abuse. And since all skills are shared on the account level you cant argue that a person whos Knight main is in the dregs has no chance of afk farming skill levels cause they can just make a separate Knight for the EK/Gods Reach and free farm that way. Then they are useing a safe character to level their character who is in a more dangerous zone.

 

 

Also another note i just realized as i wrote my last paragraph. What about people who dont wanna play the same exact Archetype on every CW. They are getting boned because now their knight in the dregs is no longer gaining skills cause they are on their confessor in another dregs CW and their leggo in a infected CW is also just sitting there gaining nothing.

 

Edit 1: Also another point, there are gonna be wild animals and such in the game so are you telling ACE to also implement a systems that first tracks that your hitting something to gain skill but then also has to track if that entity is worth skill gain? Why would someone grind sword skill on zombies who fight back when they can find horses or deer or something and swing at them without having to fight back. Should Stronger Mobs give more skill gain? If so that a whole new system ACE has to put in, which costs time, money, and resources they may or may not have

Edited by ShadowwBoi13

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You're right, there is no skill in the physical act of crafting. Anybody can click buttons and pop out an item. The skill has to do with strategy. Everything from planning your initial training skills and archetype to boost your efficiency, to marketing, to relationships...these things all effect your business. You have to remember that this is a game with potentially 100,000+ people. You may make a name for yourself by being a monster on the battlefield and you may win your campaigns and collect many resources but, no matter how many rare resources you feed your alt account, if nobody comes to buy your stuff, it's a waste of time and money.

 

Markets have a very delicate balance, driven by demand. If you're not ahead of the market trend, you'll have dead inventory. If you flood the market with a particular type of good, you will drop the value. Your choice of crafting skill may be useful but, over-saturated which will force you to undercut the market and lose revenue. There's a lot of foresight and statistics that drive game economies just like the real world. Sure, you can make money by selling stuff and not worry about all of this but, you also won't ever get rich. Alt accounts are the garage sale's to my Amazon.

 

Being a crafter and playing the economy are not one and the same.

 

If you goal is to be rich and famous, that's one thing, but if a guild/alliance has enough alts, the need to look elsewhere goes away.

 

Guess that's what I was getting at. Dedicated crafters for the crafting itself seem replaceable to a point. Likely aren't going to try to get rich off guildmates.

 

The ruleset will also factor in. Dregs players likely will have little need for EK crafters. They'll need folks in the CW itself and if someone's goal is to get rich independently of a guild, probably not the best place to hang out. Here come the alt crafters or those dedicated to their guild, not their wallet size.

 

I'm still unsure how famous someone can be for crafting when there is no active skilling. One will be limited to a particular path regardless of how focused they are on crafting itself. Same as any alt character. Knowing when/what to craft seems like one of the few differences, but I with the same exact alt build could look at the market and do the same one day, even at less of a profit. Still profit with little effort involved. 

 

No clue how it will really work, but right now I don't see anything that makes crafters unique snowflakes. Even with a complex crafting system, if players are tied down to a passive training, not much they can do to stand out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thats not really crafting you are talking about, for all of the above you do not even need crafting skills. The concept of crafting does not include the management and sales skills and vice versa IMO.

Its part of being a Dedicated crafter though and the thing that they'll have an advantage over the alt/second account crafters. Those who put in the time and effort to not only make their products but to sell and support the economy will be the "best crafters" and such. Just not seeing how this is any kind of unique "issue" that only CF will "suffer" from. Any MMO allows alts to be made and second accounts to be bought. Yet in all those games it was the dedicated crafters and merchants that were the most sought after in the trade and economy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems the majority of people are for passive training. 

 

Having not played EVE, i just find it difficult to conceptualize, honestly. 

 

Six months after release, how does a new player compete? Does this create a entirely weird market of account selling? Buying up dozens of accounts at release to just sell them for a large money payoff so a new player can basically "pay to win"?  There is no pay per month like EVE so wouldn't this be a completely viable thing?

 

I know in games currently people can buy accounts, but at least a huge amount of effort and resources/time has to be put in to prepare an account to be sold. 

 

This will be my last topic on active training, like i said the majority wants it. The thread was created to gauge peoples opinion on it and i feel its been gauged. :)

Training gains after a point takes longer to achieve. So veteran players will have a head start but not an insurmountable advantage. Passive training actually helps the new player because again they can just start playing the game like everyone else and not have to grind first then play.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems the majority of people are for passive training. 

 

Having not played EVE, i just find it difficult to conceptualize, honestly. 

 

Six months after release, how does a new player compete? Does this create a entirely weird market of account selling? Buying up dozens of accounts at release to just sell them for a large money payoff so a new player can basically "pay to win"?  There is no pay per month like EVE so wouldn't this be a completely viable thing?

 

I know in games currently people can buy accounts, but at least a huge amount of effort and resources/time has to be put in to prepare an account to be sold. 

 

This will be my last topic on active training, like i said the majority wants it. The thread was created to gauge peoples opinion on it and i feel its been gauged. :)

 

I thought this is where the initial 20% or whatever active training came in. Hop in, play a bit and become "viable." From there, focus on a path and become "better" in particular areas. With a new player and vet having some power difference, but not the typical huge gap.

 

If it is all passive, I can't see how progression will be that significant in of itself and or where the power gap won't start to increase a decent amount.

 

Problem is they are trying to take bits from multiple different systems/games and they might not all work together. It's great that CW will end and people will have a fresh start, but if the fresh start is against the same people with 200% more power or whatever, the outcome is likely the same.

 

Or progression is going to be more pretty on paper than actual importance in-game. "I have 0.00001% more Crit then you after 1 year!"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Training gains after a point takes longer to achieve. So veteran players will have a head start but not an insurmountable advantage. Passive training actually helps the new player because again they can just start playing the game like everyone else and not have to grind first then play.

 

Depends on when this kicks in. Believe they recently said someone could max out a path or whatever in about a year. Someone starting after a year would be at a disadvantage no? By the next year, I'd assume the one with 2 years on their belt will still be ahead of the 1 year in player.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Its part of being a Dedicated crafter though and the thing that they'll have an advantage over the alt/second account crafters. Those who put in the time and effort to not only make their products but to sell and support the economy will be the "best crafters" and such. Just not seeing how this is any kind of unique "issue" that only CF will "suffer" from. Any MMO allows alts to be made and second accounts to be bought. Yet in all those games it was the dedicated crafters and merchants that were the most sought after in the trade and economy.

 

In reality the best crafters will be those that belong to the rich powerful guilds with easy access to resources they need and people with money to buy their goods. The most advanced crafting characters will most likely be alts of the people most skilled/organizaed at pvp and with enough time to spend on the game ;p

 

Quite honestly I do not really buy into the concept of dedicated crafters dominating the in game market via predictive analystics and such.

Edited by rajah

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 Any MMO allows alts to be made and second accounts to be bought. Yet in all those games it was the dedicated crafters and merchants that were the most sought after in the trade and economy.

Well, those MMOs don't have a player driven economy, most likely. Things work differently when the game has full loot and player driven economy.

 

There is room to worry about how passive only progression of skills will affect the people who chose to main a crafter. But it is too early to make any hard claims, since we don't know the actual meta of crafting gathering and therefore don't yet know how much active playing will be involved with becoming a great crafter. They could add all sorts of mechanics that would require a player to really be there on his crafter in order to progess it, and then alt accounts will automatically be worse, since they are alts and don't get as much playtime.

 

We will have to see.


KjUVOZg.png


Guild Leader/ High Elder

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

If it is all passive, I can't see how progression will be that significant in of itself and or where the power gap won't start to increase a decent amount.

 

This is a good summary of my concern as well. 

 

Either progression is meaningless, or you inevitably get larger power gaps between newer and older players which was the entire problem ACE was trying to avoid with their Uncle Bob scenario.


aka honeybear

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really like the idea of passive training for a game like Crowfall. I remember hearing a few MMO developers (can't remember the game) talking about "The Burden of Efficiency" or something like that.

 

Essentially people will play the game in an unfun way to do something the best/fastest way. I'm pretty competitive person and I absolutely fall into this category.

 

I don't want Crowfall to be a game where people don't want to do certain things because they're inefficient for XP. The magic of Crowfall is going to be people doing whatever the hell they want to and seeing all kinds of strange things come from it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a good summary of my concern as well. 

 

Either progression is meaningless, or you inevitably get larger power gaps between newer and older players which was the entire problem ACE was trying to avoid with their Uncle Bob scenario.

But there are diminishing returns on training, and it takes longer and longer to train further in an archetype.  Instead of widening power gaps, when a new player joins, they should be constantly shrinking the power gap if they train smartly on one archetype.  Not to mention that many vet players may wind up switching the archetype they are training when training gets too long.


Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Depends on when this kicks in. Believe they recently said someone could max out a path or whatever in about a year. Someone starting after a year would be at a disadvantage no? By the next year, I'd assume the one with 2 years on their belt will still be ahead of the 1 year in player.

 
29. I STARTED PLAYING CROWFALL MONTHS AFTER MY FRIENDS, HOW CAN I EVER CATCH UP?

While there is an advantage in this system to starting earlier, skill gain is set up on a diminishing results curve; it’s easier to gain the first 20% than it is to gain the last 2%.

 

Additionally, we have a few ideas brewing that would allow players to “catch-up” to some degree. Our goal will be to strike a balance: early players will have a slight advantage, but competitive gameplay won’t be insurmountable for the players who come along months (or years) later.

 

http://crowfall.com/en/faq/crowsandvessels/#28

 

An advantage at first but not an insurmountable one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok so if me and 5386 other players chose to play Stalker and follow exatly the same path as far as passive training goes ( optimal one - because if you think players will not find optimal path you are plain d.. B), aside from gear (which most of those 5386 players will go for best one obvioisly...)

 

How are our characters different ? There is no lvl differance(since no lvls), we can wear same gear(since we lvl same skills), have same skills any given time.

 

There is no power differance possible at all in this system. Unless you lose your gear. And if you do mention disciplines > same thing, players will find and follow 2-3 mini max builds if game is well balanced.

 

If you and that many players follow the exact same path [disciplines, advantages/disadvantages, etc.] then you wouldn't be different except for you, the player. At the point where all choices align, player skill should make the difference between you and a duplicate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Its part of being a Dedicated crafter though and the thing that they'll have an advantage over the alt/second account crafters. Those who put in the time and effort to not only make their products but to sell and support the economy will be the "best crafters" and such. Just not seeing how this is any kind of unique "issue" that only CF will "suffer" from. Any MMO allows alts to be made and second accounts to be bought. Yet in all those games it was the dedicated crafters and merchants that were the most sought after in the trade and economy.

 

I don't think that's right. Crafters might not necessarily be after profit, instead wanting to make items for their guild. That's alright. Preferably, however, we'd like those people to have a chance at being what is called "good crafter" with some sort of skill, and not just how much they make off their product.

 

So you don't miss the point, passive training isn't a bad thing, but it brings up the question on differentiating a good crafter from a bad one. What you are talking about is trading, which is different. A crafter's worth is measured by the quality of their product, not the profit they make off it. We would all like, I think, that crafters of the same training level be capable of producing products of different quality because of their own skillfulness.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...