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coolster50

MMORPG.com Exclusive: Harvesting

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Rather, the game rewards you mechanically for being more people. Simply having more accounts will give you access to more skills, but you can only be online on x amount of characters at once and if 2/3 of a guild is alts, then that is 2/3 of a guild being inactive all the time.

 

Not only do you get the same benefits simply from having a bigger guild, you end up having higher activity and therefore higher efficiency. Time spent on an alt crafting will be time not spent on your other alt exploring and time exploring will be time not spent fighting for objectives in the world.

 

It's kinda like VIP's being able to train multiple archetypes at once. While you can change to a different archetype during the campaign and remain at the same competitive level as another archetype(who is not VIP), it means time not spent on the first archetype. Your options go up, but efficiency stays the same. Much better to just have a guild or group where all bases are covered.

 

Being a self sustained guild, with a balanced group of people, covering all skill sets needed to sustain all members. This is where the system will shine.

 

No hang on. Skills generate offline. Skills are applied to crow, not the archetype vessel.

 

Non VIP is 1 offline skill a time per crow.

VIP is 3 offline skills being trained per crow.

 

Think about being in a guild where every player is multiVIPing with 3 VIP accounts each, versus a guild of casuals - a few VIPers but otherwise players who *only paid 40 bucks* so are raising 1 skill at a time...

 

They are competing with players who have 9 skills training at a time through a pure cash advantage.

 

The VIP guild will run dedicated harvest accounts and dedicated explorer to gain all the environmental advantages in the campaign - and then hit the other guild with dedicated combat accounts.

 

If player accounts had expandable slots as oringinally envisioned - and offline skills were trainable for all slots that didnt favor the subbers then this wouldnt be a problem: A single player could hopefully keep up their "buy once - play forever" game... versus "buy 3 times and subscribe forever x 3 to maintain significant competitive advantage of  9X the skill training bonus."


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No hang on. Skills generate offline. Skills are applied to crow, not the archetype vessel.

 

Non VIP is 1 offline skill a time per crow.

VIP is 3 offline skills being trained per crow.

 

Think about being in a guild where every player is multiVIPing with 3 VIP accounts each, versus a guild of casuals - a few VIPers but otherwise players who *only paid 40 bucks* so are raising 1 skill at a time...

 

They are competing with players who have 9 skills training at a time through a pure cash advantage.

 

The VIP guild will run dedicated harvest accounts and dedicated explorer to gain all the environmental advantages in the campaign - and then hit the other guild with dedicated combat accounts.

 

If player accounts had expandable slots as originally envisioned - and offline skills were trainable for all slots that didnt favor the subbers then this wouldnt be a problem: A single player could hopefully keep up their "buy once - play forever" game... versus "buy 3 times and subscribe forever x 3 to maintain significant competitive advantage of  9X the skill training bonus."

Okay, let's say that each guild has 10 people in it and in the first guild, each member has 3 accounts (with VIP).

 

Let's say that it takes 2 dedicated crafters to support both gear for the 10 people, infrastructure and miscellaneous stuff.

Then let's say it takes 2 dedicated explorers to efficiently both find important locations and continuously scout on enemy positions and opposing guilds whereabouts and plans and of course gather the resources needed to build gear for the 10 people.

 

Suddenly, you need to make more gear, more infrastructure and gather more materials because you don't have 10 characters, but 30 characters. Characters that are otherwise not really needed, because 1-2 crafters/gatherers is enough to sustain the 10 original people.

 

One guild have 10 dedicated fighters, with 2 additional VIP accounts that can handle crafting and exploring. So when it is time for crafting, they switch, when it is time for exploring, they switch. But they can't do all of the stuff at once, even with multiple accounts (assuming multiboxing is not possible).

So they can have additional accounts that fulfill the role of the dedicated crafters and explorers, but it will fundamentally be the same efficiency wise (and probably less efficient) than just having dedicated crafters and explorers, because they end up having to do the same amount of work.

 

As I said, the system will benefit the bigger guilds, but it's much more efficient to have more active players, than fewer players with more VIP accounts, as they can only play on one of them at once anyway.

 

Having every member have different accounts will give more flexibility (just like the VIP system works with archetypes), but it will lose in efficiency.

Edited by Smed

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I think some are talking like guilds will exist in a vacuum. The guilds that best utilize and acquire sources of goods and materials whether within their own guild or outside of it and whether or not they are large or have lots of multi accounts or not will do the best, IMO.

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No hang on. Skills generate offline. Skills are applied to crow, not the archetype vessel.

 

Non VIP is 1 offline skill a time per crow.

VIP is 3 offline skills being trained per crow.

 

Think about being in a guild where every player is multiVIPing with 3 VIP accounts each, versus a guild of casuals - a few VIPers but otherwise players who *only paid 40 bucks* so are raising 1 skill at a time...

 

They are competing with players who have 9 skills training at a time through a pure cash advantage.

 

The VIP guild will run dedicated harvest accounts and dedicated explorer to gain all the environmental advantages in the campaign - and then hit the other guild with dedicated combat accounts.

 

If player accounts had expandable slots as oringinally envisioned - and offline skills were trainable for all slots that didnt favor the subbers then this wouldnt be a problem: A single player could hopefully keep up their "buy once - play forever" game... versus "buy 3 times and subscribe forever x 3 to maintain significant competitive advantage of  9X the skill training bonus."

 

Any game that has an "optional sub" is mandatory for hardcore elitist that want to be the best. Multiboxing is also a requirement as well for most PvP type mmos since it gives you an advantage. If they allow mutliboxing which seems to be the case so far you bet your ass the best players will be running 5+ accounts all with VIP. The benefits far out weigh the cons and with VIP tickets being tradable they will win campaigns and sell/trade their goods for more VIP tickets self funding their play time on all their accounts as the game keeps rolling on.

 

VIP ticket trading will also allow the more casual/average/less income players to earn vip tickets and time in game via playing. Since VIP tickets will be the one big things that whales can buy a ton of and sell/trade to other players that actually are tradable and useful in game we will see a ton of VIP tickets on the market. Not only that but the Kickstarter rewards had over 5 yeasrs of VIP time in all of the packages over $250. There is already a lot of VIP tickets flying around the game as is.

 

I don't think the sub part will be hard for anyone to maintain if they put a little bit of effort into playing the game, but multiBoxing is the issue and if possible they should not allow multiboxing in the game.


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The node scaling and risk vs reward balance sounds good.   But IMO the actual "activity" of mining falls into the same trap Darkfall/ Mortal Online and unfortunately too many other sandbox games do.  

 

1) Mining itself is a completely unskilled and incredibly boring activity, the player isn't doing anything other then staring at a resource node and hitting "F" to start harvesting it.  So basically harvesters sit around and watch youtube with someone to protect them, or go to more obscure places so they can sit around alone and watch youtube while harvesting.  The actual combat players who want weapons are forced to support a bunch of afk so called "harvesters"....or make one themselves and suffer an insane degree of boredom. 

 

2) Need of dedicated characters for mining that especially earlier on have little or no ability to fight.  It really sucks being the guy in a group of players who basically can't defend themselves...and their only role is sitting around and hitting a rock, likewise logging into a character like this to harvest necessary materials is really aggravating.   Being attacked as a defenseless miner sucks, ganking a defenseless miner isn't much fun either.

 

3) I've never seen the whole "players guarding miners getting into pvp with attackers" theory work out in practice.  It might start out like this, but ultimately the miners end up being left along because sitting around "guarding" aka doing nothing while other players hit rocks is boring as heck....just like sitting around and hitting rocks.  

 

I'm really looking forward to Crowfall, the combat/conquest in particular....I don't want to see it go down the path of so many other full loot PVP games that should be named "afk online" because getting resources and gear is based on watching your character hit nodes. The combat system is player skill based, that should apply to other aspects of the game as well - I'm tired of harvesting being a huge boring time sink that rewards players for multi-boxing and watching you tube instead of skill. 

 

Much better alternative IMO would be using minions for mining similar to the SWG harvesters, leave the afking to NPCs. 

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The article states that multiple players will be able to harvest a node to reduce harvest time and that the highest skilled player's numbers will be used for the "loot roll" to determine what's produced.  That means that a miner and his bodyguards can all whack on the node, drastically reducing the time to harvest, and still benefit from the skills of the most skilled harvester involved.

 

So bodyguards serve a triple purpose (guarding and increasing harvest speed and being able to lug resources) and group harvesting becomes well worth the effort.  And if the group gets jumped, most of them have the combat skills to defend their harvester.

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And if the group gets jumped, most of them have the combat skills to defend their harvester.

 

Lets not forget that all archetypes are built for combat. No matter how much you focus your skill training on other things, you will still have offensive and defensive combat abilities.


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Looks very well thought out on first read-through.  It really does mean that dedicated harvesters and dedicated crafters will have a role to play even in hardcore PvP guilds.  The skill investment needed for efficient use of high level nodes is considerable.

 

In practice looking at other full loot territory conquest MMOs, dedicated crafters/miners joining hardcore PVP guilds almost never happens.  What ends up happening is that members who are there for PVP are pressured into having mining/crafting alts and end up dealing with mining quotas for things like guild fortresses.  Another result of this is material taxes on new members, either way the result is PVPers having to put in hours worth of utterly boring mining in on top of actually playing the game and PVPing. 

 

The article states that multiple players will be able to harvest a node to reduce harvest time and that the highest skilled player's numbers will be used for the "loot roll" to determine what's produced.  That means that a miner and his bodyguards can all whack on the node, drastically reducing the time to harvest, and still benefit from the skills of the most skilled harvester involved.

 

So bodyguards serve a triple purpose (guarding and increasing harvest speed and being able to lug resources) and group harvesting becomes well worth the effort.  And if the group gets jumped, most of them have the combat skills to defend their harvester.

 

Helping a miner by pressing F to hit the rock is just as boring as sitting around watching while they hit the rock alone.  Using the most skilled miner's loot roll is nice but it doesn't improve things much from a gameplay/boredom standpoint unless node harvesting becomes really fast (3-5 seconds per node aka what you see in themeparks vs 30 seconds per node or far longer for sandbox pvp games)..   IMO fighting your way to node(s) through monsters with a group and quickly harvesting it while maybe getting jumped isn't bad, spending most of your night "helping" your miner by staring at a rock isn't fun at all.

 

Using NPCs for harvesting and having mining skills focused on managing a mine, and actual player skill/decision making involved in the process of managing the mine + NPCs is something that I see as a way better alternative.    Reward player skill/intelligence, not how much time they are willing to sit around hotboxing and watching youtube + afking at a rock. 

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1. I think we just need to wait and see how the skill system harvesting, crafting, and pvp systems fit together before we start trying to figure out how much of an advantage having multiple accounts is.

 

1. The harvesting system as it is right now rewards having at least 1 player specialized into harvesting while the others helping the harvester can be more combat focused. so in the event of a guild being not as diverse they can still be close to as competitive as guild with more multiboxers.

 

2. judging from how the skill system works I'm going to make an assumption: There will be very few people who immediately max out their specialties even on alts.while it does reward specializing it also rewards generalizing even more meaning that it takes less time(Exponentially Less) for people to train a broad amount of skills than it is to train a few focused skills to max.

 

3. This really won't be a problem until 10 months after soft launch at least, if it is going to be a problem. Are we really thinking that were going to even see CW's that max skills are useful in before a large portion of the player base are able to benefit from them? Not to mention we have to have Max Tier Promotion Class Legendary Vessels(aka "Walking Targets") that can handle those max harvesting skills.

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Substantively, the article mostly left me musing if Blair ever actually did a mining OP in EVE.

 

Watching modulated strip miner IIs cycle every 2 minutes for hour after hour is a thrilling experience.......

 

Mining is also one of the most boring, least engaging, and maligned aspects of EVE. It's also way more efficent and lucrative to use a bunch of alts to do everything with you or a buddy or two.

 

All that said, I hope Blair and ACE do manage to succeed where others have failed and make harvesting an engaging activity.

Edited by angelmar

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What I took from the article is that he was referencing the concept of mining in Eve, that it required people to collaborate and to do things together. In practice it might have been dull and boring, but the concept was interesting. Crowfall is a fantasy game with action combat, things won't take this long (2 minute cycles), and we already know that people will have to be actively hitting the node to get mats out of it. Add to that stealth ambushes that might be lurking around, then the route back to safety with the materials.

 

The concept of group farming where people perform different tasks (mule, patrol, gatherer) is nice and has potential for a lot of emergent gameplay, regardless of how it ended up being in Eve due to the nature of that game.

Edited by LGAllastair

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Doesn't VIP just give extra Archetype skill training not additional Crow skills!

 

Yes. 3 archetypes vs. 1. Still only 1 of: combat, crafting, exploration.

 

I stand corrected!

I still wish a single account could push crafting and exploration at the same speed as a multi account holder though.


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Substantively, the article mostly left me musing if Blair ever actually did a mining OP in EVE.

 

Watching modulated strip miner IIs cycle every 2 minutes for hour after hour is a thrilling experience.......

 

Mining is also one of the most boring, least engaging, and maligned aspects of EVE. It's also way more efficent and lucrative to use a bunch of alts to do everything with you or a buddy or two.

 

All that said, I hope Blair and ACE do manage to succeed where others have failed and make harvesting an engaging activity.

The environmental factors, particularly mobs, need to agro hard to these nodes. They should hear the noise of the harvesting and come running from far and wide. Maybe even spawn elites that perma-root at an ever-increasing rate. :P

 

There's your boredom dying with you.

Edited by coolwaters

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The environmental factors, particularly mobs, need to agro hard to these nodes. They should hear the noise of the harvesting and come running from far and wide. Maybe even spawn elites that perma-root at an ever-increasing rate. :P

 

There's your boredom dying with you.

This is actually a very nice mechanic, specially for winter. Making more mobs spawn, stronger ones, so harvesting becomes way harder to do.


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The environmental factors, particularly mobs, need to agro hard to these nodes. They should hear the noise of the harvesting and come running from far and wide. Maybe even spawn elites that perma-root at an ever-increasing rate. :P

 

There's your boredom dying with you.

 

The high quality Resource Nodes should spawn sufficient Elite mobs that it makes soloing them nearly impossible. Just like EvE's Space Pirates.:)


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